spuglisi Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 May I suggest that although this thread has touched many fine topics which would, if explored by other threads or perhaps presentations, be of great value to new and old paddlers alike; this thread is really inside baseball or at least preaching to choir. Its easy to be self-praising about the club or as Pintail says this loosely associated group of paddlers, but if a new member has attended a few pool or lake sessions what is provided for them to further develop? Its not clear to me the trips typically posted last year provided journeys during which they would be mentored and/or exposed to all the considerations and judgments and skills discussed here. Perhaps I am uniformed since I am on the periphery of club activities and wrong. Ed Lawson Ed, I have to say, in defense of the club, that In the past year I've attended some excellent workshops and paddles. John Huth on weather and sea conditions, Adam Bolonsky on navigation, Suz and Scott on cold weather paddling. Rick S gave an very informative and well attended presentation on how to do a beach briefing which was followed by a well organized and monitored paddle in conditions that were challenging to many of us. There were a lot of skilled paddlers from the club out on the water that day and they were all very generous in sharing their knowledge. As someone who still has a lot to learn I feel that I've gained a lot of ground in just the past year. I think there are many opportunities for people who are looking for them. Not to mention what can be learned from simply paddling with and observing people who are more skilled than myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I have to say, in defense of the club, that In the past year I've attended some excellent workshops and paddles. .......Not to mention what can be learned from simply paddling with and observing people who are more skilled than myself. Sal: I am heartened by your reply. I agree the club does a great job with workshops. I meant to focus on whether newer members felt there were paddles they felt comfortable joining and on which they felt they extending their knowledge through mentoring. I am glad to see your affirmative answer on that as well. Ed Lawson Being Disruptive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossjb1 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Sal: I am heartened by your reply. I agree the club does a great job with workshops. I meant to focus on whether newer members felt there were paddles they felt comfortable joining and on which they felt they extending their knowledge through mentoring. I am glad to see your affirmative answer on that as well. Ed Lawson Being Disruptive Ed, I think that the skills sessions at the various lakes in the area are place where people can really expand their knowledge and skills. That is where I gained much of my mine. You may be right in that the club may not be setting up enough beginner paddles/trips. We do try though. Your right on about the mentoring. Perhaps there could be a specific place on the website where people could hook up with mentors. There are a number of aspiring teachers/coaches who would probably be happy to get some teaching experience Ross Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Can anyone dig up Keith's write up of PI sound? It's in this thread: http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?&a...keith&st=25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brwells Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 high lord of geek trivia? but of course! now, for big nerd points, sans google (honor system) give up the name of the spaceship... Jupiter III? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Jupiter II, as in Tippecanoe and Tyler too, something before even Godfrey's time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Jupiter II, Argh! You beat me to it, Bob! as in Tippecanoe and Tyler too, something before even Godfrey's time. Wait a minute...there was actually TV/radio before Sir Godfrey's time? Rumour (notice the proper British spelling) has it that Sir G. predates electricity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Argh! You beat me to it, Bob! Wait a minute...there was actually TV/radio before Sir Godfrey's time? Rumour (notice the proper British spelling) has it that Sir G. predates electricity. i don't know that it was tv as we recognize it today. my understanding from early manuscripts is that "the moving pictures" were just that; like cartoons, a series of similar drawings flashed in rapid succession. before that, of course there were the cave drawings of his youth. being of african heritage, he will regale you with tales of his youth and then later when that leaky fella came poking around the ole family stomping grounds.... you know, i think he may remember a time BEFORE SIR DEREK C HUTCHINSON invented water and kayaking? don't feel too bad sir christopher....we joke because we love. the other day i was flashing through the stations on the radio and stopped on bob seger - hollywood nights...great song from when i was a kid. so i listened to that and then the station played it's little promo tag and sure enough...the oldies station....the bastards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Somewhere along the line, I said I'd help lead an on-the-water weather course in June. I have to get this scheduled. Can someone e-mail me at: huth at physics dot harvard dot edu ? I need to be pestered!!! We could perhaps pin some other instructional aspect onto this, as well. Just a suggestion, since the question came up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Do we know that all can assist in a T rescue or can be rescued by another paddler in conditions? Usually a pod of 6 or more paddlers raises the sense of security, but what of the many who paddle in twos or threes? I�€™m in favor of a pre launch conversation that asks these questions. While I�€™m all for the personal responsibility that each individual owns, our we guilty of enabling unsafe paddling practices when we agree to paddle with someone who hasn�€™t yet done a wet exit let alone practiced an assisted rescue? Hi all It was apparent during my visit last summer that the character of the club had changed drastically. When I talked about setting off a little rescue practice in some bumpy water I was given the evil eye and told not to. It was my intent when the club was started to practice an important skill, rescues, by providing intentional practice sessions through causing chaos whenever possible. To some this method wasn't attractive, but others seemed to thrive on it. It was the "OTHERS" that became the stronger leaders and teachers in the club back then. Where is the club now that they are not participating? Please go back to your roots. The warmer side of NSPN does no one any good. My students here on the west coast thrive on "the shark in the shallows" or as you all used to call it "getting Bob'd". I don't do it out of the need to be mean. I want you all to become stronger. Sometimes that means a little push is needed for practice to begin. Don't enable dependence, Teach for independence. That used to be the NSPN way. It's up to you to carry on the tradition. B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 QUOTE(B @ Mar 18 2009, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Please go back to your roots. Already on my way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossjb1 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 QUOTE(B @ Mar 18 2009, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi all It was apparent during my visit last summer that the character of the club had changed drastically. When I talked about setting off a little rescue practice in some bumpy water I was given the evil eye and told not to. It was my intent when the club was started to practice an important skill, rescues, by providing intentional practice sessions through causing chaos whenever possible. To some this method wasn't attractive, but others seemed to thrive on it. It was the "OTHERS" that became the stronger leaders and teachers in the club back then. Where is the club now that they are not participating? Please go back to your roots. The warmer side of NSPN does no one any good. My students here on the west coast thrive on "the shark in the shallows" or as you all used to call it "getting Bob'd". I don't do it out of the need to be mean. I want you all to become stronger. Sometimes that means a little push is needed for practice to begin. Don't enable dependence, Teach for independence. That used to be the NSPN way. It's up to you to carry on the tradition. B Bob, not to worry we're still getting out there and practicing in all conditions. Alex and I were planning on doing a cold water skills/rescues in conditions 3 weeks ago but had to call it off because a blizzard and a few inches of snow. But more so because Alex hurt his knee the day before when he was skiing. Yes the tradition continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 you know, i think he may remember a time BEFORE SIR DEREK C HUTCHINSON invented water and kayaking? Cruel blow. After all, didn't Noah consult Sir Derek regarding design and construction? Sir Christopher as a child may have squandered his allowance watching the Great Train Robbery at the nickelodeon, but at least it was invented prior to his childhood. Ed Lawson Obviously spring cannot come fast enough to save us from the ravages of winter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 QUOTE(B @ Mar 18 2009, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi all It was apparent during my visit last summer that the character of the club had changed drastically. When I talked about setting off a little rescue practice in some bumpy water I was given the evil eye and told not to. It was my intent when the club was started to practice an important skill, rescues, by providing intentional practice sessions through causing chaos whenever possible. To some this method wasn't attractive, but others seemed to thrive on it. It was the "OTHERS" that became the stronger leaders and teachers in the club back then. Where is the club now that they are not participating? Please go back to your roots. The warmer side of NSPN does no one any good. My students here on the west coast thrive on "the shark in the shallows" or as you all used to call it "getting Bob'd". I don't do it out of the need to be mean. I want you all to become stronger. Sometimes that means a little push is needed for practice to begin. Don't enable dependence, Teach for independence. That used to be the NSPN way. It's up to you to carry on the tradition. B I think I agree with you Bob. However there may be a reason for this that has nothing to do with the club's character. When NSPN began it was a smaller group of paddlers who all probably shared the same spirit of adventure. Now the club sports membership in the hundreds. The same dedicated gung ho types are still here; it's just that the larger membership comprises many who may be recreational and social paddlers and who do not aspire to join the Tsunami Rangers any time soon. I was a charter member of the original Charles River Wheelmen back in the late 60's. There were eight of us whose idea of fun was a century ride every weekend from Cambridge out to the top of Wachusett Mt. and back in 6 hours. I got older and soon tired of that but was replaced by hundreds of new members who cycle for more leisure and social goals then we who started the club years ago. But I'm sure some still do centuries as well. I like your ideas and think that they are practiced informally by like minded paddlers in what used to be called S&G's. As far as the larger group trips are concerned sometimes twenty to forty paddlers show up (Summer Solstice). Not all are known to all and so the challenges tend to be broadly down the middle. We call the trips by levels 2, 2+ and 3 based upon conditions of sea state, length of paddle and type of channel crossing. Maybe we should organize a Level 4 trip as well where anyone can be randomly dumped and rescued without warning! I'm game, just don't dump me when I'm eating my lunch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tieman Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but it looks like the paddle back was against the outgoing tide. 12:44 PM EST 8.25 feet High Tide 6:45 PM EST -0.11 feet Low Tide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Gene, excuse me for what is coming: <We call the trips by levels 2, 2+ and 3 based upon conditions of sea state, length of paddle and type of channel crossing> Since when? Yes, I know there are folk who use these "2+"-type descriptions; but will you show me where we officially describe them thus? Go into "trip levels" and I assure you, you will find nothing like that whatsoever. The trip levels are perfectly-well described and I see no sense in starting to call them by halves or "plus" or "minus". 2 is 2 and 3 is 3 -- what more do you want? Secondly, I do not think that the nature of this club has changed: there are supposedly still level 4 trips -- the difference has been in recent times when trip leadership itself has changed, because of liability. I still think in terms of trip levels for paddlers and as for training and "passing along" the knowledge -- we have pool sessions and skills sessions that are generally well-attended, don't we? I believe that Bob's aspirations are as valid as ever -- and I do not see the club as having changed much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Gene, excuse me for what is coming: <We call the trips by levels 2, 2+ and 3 based upon conditions of sea state, length of paddle and type of channel crossing> Since when? Yes, I know there are folk who use these "2+"-type descriptions; but will you show me where we officially describe them thus? Go into "trip levels" and I assure you, you will find nothing like that whatsoever. The trip levels are perfectly-well described and I see no sense in starting to call them by halves or "plus" or "minus". 2 is 2 and 3 is 3 -- what more do you want? Secondly, I do not think that the nature of this club has changed: there are supposedly still level 4 trips -- the difference has been in recent times when trip leadership itself has changed, because of liability. I still think in terms of trip levels for paddlers and as for training and "passing along" the knowledge -- we have pool sessions and skills sessions that are generally well-attended, don't we? I believe that Bob's aspirations are as valid as ever -- and I do not see the club as having changed much! Chris, You are excused! I think your screed against plus and minus is hairsplitting and not really relevant. In actual parlance these terms are frequently used by NSPN paddlers to attempt to fine tune their experiences and judging the trip level of difficulty. I agree that pool sessions and skills sessions are still in force and demonstrates the "pay it forward" club ethic. What I was trying to show was that as numbers increase you don't have the same character of shared adventure that you might with a smaller more cohesive group. I don't think too many new members would relish being surprised by another member tipping them over in conditions without warning while veterans who know each other well might enjoy the same experience among themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I think I agree with you Bob. However there may be a reason for this that has nothing to do with the club's character. When NSPN began it was a smaller group of paddlers who all probably shared the same spirit of adventure. Now the club sports membership in the hundreds. The same dedicated gung ho types are still here; it's just that the larger membership comprises many who may be recreational and social paddlers and who do not aspire to join the Tsunami Rangers any time soon. What time frame are you referring to when NSPN was a smaller group of paddlers who all shared in a common spirit of adventure ? To my knowledge there were considerably more members in the era Mr. Burnett invoked than there are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I made my statement based on what I've heard from others that remembered the old days and from the level 4 trip I was on last summer when I was kept in check by Rick. I was surprised and disappointed at not being allowed to instigate a little practice. Afterward hearing statements like "we just don't do that anymore" bothered me. Where does the important learning come from if not the leaders? Is everyone having to pay for training when it's at your fingertips? The learning needs to start at the lowest level trips. Hell, I used to bail out of my boat on simple trips around a protected harbor and make people rescue me. It's the simple things that count. Press the fundamentals. Getting sharked is for those game, for those that are in the arena of combat conditions. Scenario based training should be included in every trip, by every leader. My point is that it's the simple things that count. The water is 50 degrees on average year round here and I'm in the water all the time. My point is simply to "teach for independence". Sometimes that has to be instigated. B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 What time frame are you referring to when NSPN was a smaller group of paddlers who all shared in a common spirit of adventure ? To my knowledge there were considerably more members in the era Mr. Burnett invoked than there are now. I'm thinking maybe 10 years ago. This is purely anecdotal based on stories I've heard from LeonG. about the "old" days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 NSPN was indeed a smaller group, as is the case with most organizations they started with a small core. I joined after Chris Perkins had built the first website (while he was supposed to be working - though he's so bright noone seemed to know at our company). By then Rick Crangle and Scott Camlin were the hosts of leader training with a dozen or so "veterans" who chipped in on training days and the membership was similar demographically and numerically to what it is today. Leader training was essentially a curriculum where paddlers could learn about charts, planning, rescues, etc. and then get on the water to be trained and later abused (Bob'd?) under more or less controlled circumstances. Liability became a hot button and leader training as part of club membership was the casualty, though there was an attempt to do ACA-based leader training with a subsidy structure based upon trips lead. I wouldn't say that the size of the group was a significant factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sylvester Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 QUOTE(B @ Mar 19 2009, 12:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I made my statement based on what I've heard from others that remembered the old days and from the level 4 trip I was on last summer when I was kept in check by Rick. I was surprised and disappointed at not being allowed to instigate a little practice. Afterward hearing statements like "we just don't do that anymore" bothered me. Where does the important learning come from if not the leaders? Is everyone having to pay for training when it's at your fingertips? The learning needs to start at the lowest level trips. Hell, I used to bail out of my boat on simple trips around a protected harbor and make people rescue me. It's the simple things that count. Press the fundamentals. Getting sharked is for those game, for those that are in the arena of combat conditions. Scenario based training should be included in every trip, by every leader. My point is that it's the simple things that count. The water is 50 degrees on average year round here and I'm in the water all the time. My point is simply to "teach for independence". Sometimes that has to be instigated. B Bob, Those were the days.... if I had not run into you I would not have jump started my skills quite the same way. Yes, we need more people that are outgoing and assertive in their interactive teaching (like you). When you and John L. would get together it was a riot. Some of the best laughs were on flat water, running up on each others rear decks and tipping people over, the chases, etc. Point taken, Paul S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Bob, Those were the days.... if I had not run into you I would not have jump started my skills quite the same way. Yes, we need more people that are outgoing and assertive in their interactive teaching (like you). When you and John L. would get together it was a riot. Some of the best laughs were on flat water, running up on each others rear decks and tipping people over, the chases, etc. Point taken, Paul S. Listening to all this talk about the good old days when makes me feel like a humorless, Puritanical hairshirt who never has any fun. "There once was a paddler named Prine who, through pain, sought to reach the Devine. He wore a hair shirt quite often ate dirt and bathed each Friday in brine." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossjb1 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Listening to all this talk about the good old days when makes me feel like a humorless, Puritanical hairshirt who never has any fun. "There once was a paddler named Prine who, through pain, sought to reach the Devine. He wore a hair shirt quite often ate dirt and bathed each Friday in brine." Well you are known as, Peter the Puritanical Pious Paddler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sylvester Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 We are lacking a certain intensity, Who remembers Dick Beal? Man that guy was intense. Solo, but very experienced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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