rick stoehrer Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 This reminds me of Adam's post at the end of last season in Wood's Hole with a panicked paddler. I would have thought that the CG would have broadcast to other ships in the area for some assist. Maybe the message here is that we expect too much from the CG and ought to be equipped with marine radios and make our own pan-pan calls to local vessels if need be. The CG seems to be great for a mayday situation but not so great for playing the nanny role. Maybe we need to be our own nannies. Maybe that's why some of us never paddle solo, i.e. The Nannie Paddlers Network. The CG ARE NOT YOUR NANNY! YOU are RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF! Each of us makes OUR OWN decision on where and when to launch and what to carry with us. WE are the captains of our vessels and with that personal responsibility comes the risk and (hopefully) the understanding of what we are undertaking. THE ONLY way to reduce the # of deaths like this one (you WILL NOT ELIMINATE THEM) is through education of kayakers...NOT through CG operations - babysitting kayakers IS NOT and SHOULD NOT be their mission. You want to help? Educate, don't legislate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdoyle Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 The problem as I see it is that any rescue device needs to be practiced to be effective in an emergency. Sponsons are sometimes advertised as a "get out of trouble free card." Suppose you're in a high following sea condition as we surmise this paddler was. In order to deploy sponsons he would have needed to first inflate them and if he was still upright would then have to use two hands to clip them on at four separate attachment points, placing his torso off balance several times for the duration of that task. A much better scenario is that after capsizing and wet exiting he inflates and attaches while in the water. Now it becomes a more stable re-entry maneuver than that of a paddle float re-entry. He could even cowboy re-enter at this point. If you're in the water and cannot re-enter and roll with or without a paddle float, sponsons are an easier and more stable option. However no one should be in a situation where the sponsons become the last resort. If you are, it's simply one more trick in your bag that could save the bacon. Here's a link to a CG report on the use and safety of sponsons. (Something i'd never heard of until reading this) http://www.uscgboating.org/SAFETY/efficacy.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 , That's a great report - the preamble about risk homeostasis is, in particular worth the read. There is an issue that frequently comes up in SAR groups in mountain/wilderness settings that the SAR people have a vested interest in keeping people out of trouble in the first place, because they put their butts on the line. I've participated in a couple of SAR's, and in both cases, it was due to foolishness on the part of the folks we had to rescue. In one particular case, I met the guy going into the mountains and saw some things that I might've warned him about in advance, but didn't. In the end, I had to put myself at some risk to help the guy out when he got stranded in a blizzard at 12,000 ft with a broken ankle. I don't think this is as much of a case with the CG, and kayakers, since I'm not sure the CG ends up with a lot of risk in SAR's (although I could be wrong). I just wanted to point out that in the mountaineering community, it's more of an issue - particularly on peaks like Mt. Hood etc in the Cascades, which are highly traveled. If you want an example of this on steroids, check out the book "High Crimes" about people who pay to be guided up Everest, get into trouble and somehow expect a rescue, when a rescue is completely impossible. Above 24,000 feet, everyone is effectively on their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdkilroy Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Despite all the rhetoric regarding sponsons on this website: I do feel there may be a place for them in a good/experienced paddler's repatoir of rescue options. Specifically; if I am out as one of a pair of paddlers and one of the two becomes incapable of paddling or remaining upright, this gives me an increased possibility of getting this person to shore safely. A cure-all? Hell no, but at that point, I would appreciate any advantage. If alone; a reenter and roll is my best asset along with a foot pump that will allow me to paddle/brace while emptying the cockpit. (all the more reason to spend some time paddling on the ocean, a lively one, with a cockpit full of water) just a thought... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Despite all the rhetoric regarding sponsons on this website: I do feel there may be a place for them in a good/experienced paddler's repatoir of rescue options. Specifically; if I am out as one of a pair of paddlers and one of the two becomes incapable of paddling or remaining upright, this gives me an increased possibility of getting this person to shore safely. A cure-all? Hell no, but at that point, I would appreciate any advantage. If alone; a reenter and roll is my best asset along with a foot pump that will allow me to paddle/brace while emptying the cockpit. (all the more reason to spend some time paddling on the ocean, a lively one, with a cockpit full of water) just a thought... Jon I have never used Sponsons, but my understanding is that the boat needs to be set up in advance, before they came be used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathyfoley Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 One thing that hasn't been mentioned on here is the use of a personal locator beacon (PLB) or a SPOT, which is a similar device. As kayakers, many of us spend thousands of dollars on boats and other equipment. While expensive at about $650.00 for a PLB and $150 for SPOT, I would think a solo kayaker in northern waters would consider it essential equipment. It's definitely a last resort and hopefully an investment never needed. But the one time you might need it, could save your life. I can only speculate that this kayaker and the guy off Biddeford Pool a year or so ago, might have been saved had they had one of these. Within minutes, rescue personnel should have a signal and almost an exact location, night or day. It may still take quite a while for help to arrive, but someone in a drysuit would likely survive that wait time if they had good layering in underclothes and some means of signaling as rescuers are near. (VHF, Flare, strobe, mirror) Even someone in a wetsuit might have a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I have never used Sponsons, but my understanding is that the boat needs to be set up in advance, before they came be used? That's absolutely correct, which is one of the reasons that sponsons are largely useless as a rescue device. Unless all the boats in a group are rigged for them in advance, you can't attach them. Perhaps sponsons could have some utility for guided trips with rented boats that are all rigged for them, but that's about it. While expensive at about $650.00 for a PLB and $150 for SPOT, I would think a solo kayaker in northern waters would consider it essential equipment. It's definitely a last resort and hopefully an investment never needed. But the one time you might need it, could save your life. I agree, but considering that the person in question could even be bothered to carry a VHF, it's unlikely that he would have bought a SPOT, either. I agree with Rick that the key reducing paddler deaths is education. People need to understand the level of risk they're accepting. As we've probably all seen, most people don't have a clue as to how dangerous cold New England waters are and how quickly they can find themselves in a desperate situation if they're not adequately prepared. It can be a difficult thing to convey, but we need to make the effort. Speaking of education, is NSPN still distributing the safety brochures to local retailers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I agree with Rick that the key reducing paddler deaths is education. People need to understand the level of risk they're accepting. As we've probably all seen, most people don't have a clue as to how dangerous cold New England waters are and how quickly they can find themselves in a desperate situation if they're not adequately prepared. It can be a difficult thing to convey, but we need to make the effort. Agreed! The message needs to be front and center in all the club's practices. My belief is that it is important to reach paddlers early in their paddling career to emphasize safe practices. Teach the simple ways to be safe from wearing appropriate clothing to making safe sound decisions about where and when to paddle. I think it might be time for a new thread on the message board with outreach ideas. This could be a good project for the four big New England clubs to spearhead together - NSPN, CONNYAK, SMSKN and RICKA. Suz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Just to be a contrarian, I fail to see what is so hard about accepting as a premise that when paddling solo, aside form bad luck, whether you live or die is dependent completely upon your judgments and actions. Seems that is part of what makes it so rewarding. Of course, as they say in the climbing world, if you were born to walk in the valleys; stay there, do not mess around on the mountains. Once you start thinking some bit of safety gear will save you, you are on a slippery slope. I also think it is very important to fully understand how SPOT and PLB function and what their limitations are before blindly thinking they will enable you to be saved. Having said all that, I believe that once the CG has built out its DSC system, it would be foolish not to have a VHF marine radio with GPS and DSC. With it you will broadcast your position and category of problem, you will be notified when your data signal has been received, it will be received directly by those most likely to come for you, and you should be able to establish voice communication with them as they will attempt to make contact once the data signal is received. I know...inconsistent, but at heart a timid woodland creature. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Just to be a contrarian, I fail to see what is so hard about accepting as a premise that when paddling solo, aside form bad luck, whether you live or die is dependent completely upon your judgments and actions. Seems that is part of what makes it so rewarding. Of course, as they say in the climbing world, if you were born to walk in the valleys; stay there, do not mess around on the mountains. Once you start thinking some bit of safety gear will save you, you are on a slippery slope. I also think it is very important to fully understand how SPOT and PLB function and what their limitations are before blindly thinking they will enable you to be saved. Having said all that, I believe that once the CG has built out its DSC system, it would be foolish not to have a VHF marine radio with GPS and DSC. With it you will broadcast your position and category of problem, you will be notified when your data signal has been received, it will be received directly by those most likely to come for you, and you should be able to establish voice communication with them as they will attempt to make contact once the data signal is received. I know...inconsistent, but at heart a timid woodland creature. Ed Lawson bbbuuuttttt Eeeeedddd....this is America and I have an easy button. Won't that help? These devices we're talking about might let you notify someone you're in trouble, they might even let people know where you are (whether you know or not) BUT whether or not or even IF anyone can reach you to help you is another ball of hair entirely. Can anyone dig up Keith's write up of PI sound? Go back and read it - those guys were skilled and experienced and had to fall back on training AND gear and were very fotunate - it STILL took the CG quite a bit of time to effect rescue. Until the rescue swimmer hit thw water with the basket, those federales were just spectators...those 2 kayakers were on their own. So by all means carry the latest whiz bang glow in the dark widget BUT understand what YOU are doing and what YOU may have to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great_blue Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 In terms of the effects of hypothermia and it's ability to debilitate rational thought, check out the recent CG report from the survivor of the capsize of the football players' boat in Florida. nbc news story Throwing punches, "seeing" land, taking off PFD's and swimming away.... Certainly an extreme case, but this seems to illustrate the difficulty a potentially hypothermic kayaker might have in deciding what choices to make out at sea. Jon p.S. Hope my link works this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Just to be a contrarian, I fail to see what is so hard about accepting as a premise that when paddling solo, aside form bad luck, whether you live or die is dependent completely upon your judgments and actions. Seems that is part of what makes it so rewarding. Of course, as they say in the climbing world, if you were born to walk in the valleys; stay there, do not mess around on the mountains. Once you start thinking some bit of safety gear will save you, you are on a slippery slope. I know...inconsistent, but at heart a timid woodland creature. Ed Lawson Ed, I understand your point but that is INFORMED risk. For some reason, with kayaking, the perceived risk is very slim and for most paddlers and for most of the time there is very little risk. Unfortunately, once you add in a 7 mile open crossing solo, the bells should be going off in your head and you should be hearing the robot say "DANGER WILL ROGERS, DANGER". But the complacent paddler knows a few things... they have NEVER inadvertently come out of their boat, they never needed help before, they always got home safely before. Therefore they don't have to worry and besides, they have a cell phone.... So, the problem is usually that they (beginners or people who believe they are "experienced" without knowing what experienced might mean) don't know what they don't know. Suz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Ed, I understand your point but that is INFORMED risk. For some reason, with kayaking, the perceived risk is very slim and for most paddlers and for most of the time there is very little risk. Unfortunately, once you add in a 7 mile open crossing solo, the bells should be going off in your head and you should be hearing the robot say "DANGER WILL ROGERS, DANGER". But the complacent paddler knows a few things... they have NEVER inadvertently come out of their boat, they never needed help before, they always got home safely before. Therefore they don't have to worry and besides, they have a cell phone.... So, the problem is usually that they (beginners or people who believe they are "experienced" without knowing what experienced might mean) don't know what they don't know. Suz i wouldn't presume to guess at what the voices in your head say but on the tv program, the robot said "danger will ROBINSON, danger." it's before our time, but certainly christopher will tell you....everybody loved will rogers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 i wouldn't presume to guess at what the voices in your head say but on the tv program, the robot said "danger will ROBINSON, danger." it's before our time, but certainly christopher will tell you....everybody loved will rogers. (i) Who on earth was Will Rogers? I have never heard of him (although I think there is an airport named after him someplace -- OKC, perhaps?) Neither do I know any robots! (ii) Are you insinuating...about my age? Impudent youngster! (Mind you, I was a fan of ROY Rogers as a child). Regarding this stupid accident -- I hardly think there is more to be gleaned from the unnecessary drowning of this sad man who evidently did not recognise how much he <didn't> know (good point, Suzanne). In my opinion, NO ONE should have been thinking of going to sea alone in those conditions and at this time of year. I <like> to think that NSPNers know better... THE <single> greatest thing about this loose assembly we call our paddling club (thanks, B!) is that we nurture our newer members and constantly push each other (nay, <challenge> each other) to practise and to hone our skills -- and to develope our judgement -- and as long as there are organisations such as BCU and ACA against whose standards to measure ourselves, then we shall make safe progress. Even if paddlers choose <not> to follow these paths, then they should at least be accepting that same mindset and self-discipline..."nuff said", I think. Tootle-OO, pip pip! Get ready for the new season -- it's close! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 (i) Who on earth was Will Rogers? Perhaps dispensation is due given your non-native status as Will rogers was a famous American humorist in the 1930s. On second thought, as a pilot perhaps you should know that he died along with Wiley Post in 1935 when their plane crashed while attempting an around the world flight. Will Robinson was a character in the campy Si-Fi TV series "Lost in Space" that started about the same time as Star Trek. Will was a young boy who often befriended the "villan" Dr. Smith and to whom the Robot was a buddy. Are you sure it was Roy Rogers and not Tom Mix? Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Something I’ve been thinking about, and that this incident plus the “Talking to the Coast Guard†thread have reinforced to me, is the importance of, at all times, having an overview of the WHOLE day on the water , and especially, that last part of the day. Sometimes it is in the last hour(s) on the water , that last crossing or return to the put-in, when we may be tired, colder, in a hurry, the sun is going down , etc. and we might be especially vulnerable. Kayaking is fun, and there can be moments during the day that are ecstatic, at which point perhaps some of those pleasure hormones kick into action which may mess with ones judgment, like being in love with someone who is bad for you, clouding the picture of what things will be like in an hour or two,. Keeping the whole day in mind is something that has to be worked at. I hope this thread has been educational and compassionate. Certainly intended that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 As American’s we tend to be seduced by passive means and methods of safety. Part of the rise in SUV sales is attributed to the mistaken belief that the driver and passengers will be safer in a crash. This leads to an increase in more risk taking behaviors: aggressive driving, higher speeds, cell phone use etc. The air bag was mandated not because it is more effective in preventing injuries than wearing a seat belt but because it is entirely passive. The driver does not need to do anything to activate it. Even wearing a seat belt appears to be too inconvenient for a number of drivers. We still lose 50,000 souls in this country every year due to auto collisions. (Notice I didn’t say “accidents†implying that there was no fault.) Auto collisions are similar to bad outcomes on the water in a kayak. No one plans to have a collision but most of them are random and unavoidable given the low level of skill and judgment most drivers display on the road. I think I’m more thoughtful, careful and perhaps even more skillful than most drivers I share the roads with. And yet! And yet I rely on my seat belt and air bag to minimize the dangers I face each and every day. They may yet save my life. Kayaking in the ocean presents similar risks. Not from other kayakers but from the changes and unpredictability of weather. One can have skill, be highly prepared and yet overcome by a sudden shift in weather. We all try to avoid this, but it does happen. What are the set of conditions that are too daunting for your level of skill or experience? Some of us don’t know until we experience the negative. How much fun is it to surf back to the launch in a following sea of two to three feet and then find yourself not able to keep from broaching and capsizing in four to six footers the next day? Seakayaking the way most of us practice it is ironically both inherently more dangerous and safe at the same time. We only improve by testing our previous limits thereby invoking danger, but this very improvement in skills tends to further insulate us. It’s anecdotally obvious that other than the rank recreational peddler, the ones that get in to trouble are ironically the most skilled and prepared among us. Part of this is just based upon exposure. If you’re out there in rough conditions more often there is a greater chance statistically that you might run into trouble. I’m a skilled and previously a professional woodworker. Thankfully I still have all my fingers. But it is from my ranks that the injuries come from mostly. It’s just based upon the amount of time spent using dangerous machinery. The next category of frequent injury comes from the ranks of the amateurs. We have many NSPN paddlers that don’t use VHF radios and don’t have a reliable roll. Do we know that all can assist in a T rescue or can be rescued by another paddler in conditions? Usually a pod of 6 or more paddlers raises the sense of security, but what of the many who paddle in twos or threes? I’m in favor of a pre launch conversation that asks these questions. While I’m all for the personal responsibility that each individual owns, our we guilty of enabling unsafe paddling practices when we agree to paddle with someone who hasn’t yet done a wet exit let alone practiced an assisted rescue? Unless these questions are asked you may never know until it’s too late. This screed is not to address liability just common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 i wouldn't presume to guess at what the voices in your head say but on the tv program, the robot said "danger will ROBINSON, danger." Of course, of course... Will ROBINSON. I knew you would get the reference though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Of course, of course... Will ROBINSON. I knew you would get the reference though! high lord of geek trivia? but of course! now, for big nerd points, sans google (honor system) give up the name of the spaceship... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 high lord of geek trivia? but of course! now, for big nerd points, sans google (honor system) give up the name of the spaceship... Was this back in the days of black in white? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 You had to say "honor system" didn't you. Shoot. When I looked it up, I said "Oh yeah", but now I can't spill the beans. There's a great writeup on wiki-pedia on it. Now, remind me how this relates to kayaking? Oh yeah, "danger Will Robinson..." er Rogers...er.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 May I suggest that although this thread has touched many fine topics which would, if explored by other threads or perhaps presentations, be of great value to new and old paddlers alike; this thread is really inside baseball or at least preaching to choir. Its easy to be self-praising about the club or as Pintail says this loosely associated group of paddlers, but if a new member has attended a few pool or lake sessions what is provided for them to further develop? Its not clear to me the trips typically posted last year provided journeys during which they would be mentored and/or exposed to all the considerations and judgments and skills discussed here. Perhaps I am uniformed since I am on the periphery of club activities and wrong. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgr Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Was this back in the days of black in white? The first season was in black & white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 The first season was in black & white. Surely I must have been watching reruns! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Surely I must have been watching reruns! I regret to inform you there were no reruns. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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