Kayakers Flip off Plum Island

[sings_evil_twin]

Anything can happen when you paddle, even flatwater. Someone may have to risk their lives coming to get you.

For that matter, when you drive car to the put in, you could get in a car accident. Much higher percentage of probability. EMT and other personnel may have to risk their lives to get to you. Don't do it.

Stay home. Don't go outside. Anytime you do, you can't avoid interactions with others and therefore put ohters or yourself at risk.

Don't go out. Then we won't need lifeguards, Coast Guard, EMTs, police, etc. Don't be delusional that you will be safe out there. Don't go out.

sing

[EEL]

>You're kidding, right?

I assume you are. I was never a rescue groupie, but I have dragged fellow climbers off mountains. Dow was a climber and he went as any other climber would to help. He was on a trail many of us had used in winter, but still died in a small slide. It would be easy and foolish to say he made as big a mistake as anyone else. Anybody can get the chop through bad luck, a moment's inattention, or a misjudgement. If lucky you just get your pride hurt or an injury that does not disable. I don't know many climbers who have not had an episode and I doubt many kayakers who pursue the sport seriously have not either.

Perhaps you were born to walk in the valleys or glide over calm water which means you do not understand. Fine, but do not disparage those who were not. Others do not let the fear of dying prevent them from the joy of living on the edge. Its a valid choice so long as its an informed choice.

If your point is one should be willing to live or die by one's choices. Fair enough. For good or ill there is a history of free rescues in the US. In Europe you pay for climbing rescues and most buy insurance. It may have changed, but in Canada they didn't officially mount rescues...you were on your own.

Ed Lawson

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

>not disparage those who were not. Others do not let the

>fear of dying prevent them from the joy of living on the

>edge.

Or from the joy of just living...

[PeterB]

If a 15 mph speed limit were legislated and strictly enforced, the number of U.S. traffic fatalities would drop from the tens of thousands to probably hundreds per year. But practically nobody would accept this is because there is a level of collective risk that we accept as a consequence of living our lives. I drive into Boston every weekday, and sometimes drive long distances to do elective things like… kayaking. I’m sure that I am placing myself at greater risk while in my car than in my boat. To blame AAA, or the fire department or the dept. of Motor vehicles as enablers if I were to come to grief in an auto accident would reveal the kind of behavior which is depressingly prevalent in todays litigious, blaming society. I for one would not have much use for a society where everyone drove at 15 mph, and only those who ventured on to mountains ,ski slopes, flat ponds, or drove to their relatives on Thanksgiving(and so on) did so only on sunny days and in totally benign conditions.

If paddlers ended up overmatched in bad conditions, to presume that they launched in those same conditions is to advertise ones own ignorance of marine weather. Conditions on the ocean can change at any time. What begins as an outing on a damp day with scummy skies and 8 knot winds can end as a contest with roiling seas and 25 knot winds. Weather reports are not always accurate. Innumerable NSPN skills sessions and outings have been cancelled due to predicted conditions which did not materialize, leaving frustrated , fuming would -be paddlers changing their plans for the day.

The awareness that weather can change at the drop of a hat is part of what forms an experienced paddler, but if that same knowledge keeps the paddler off the water for fear of changing conditions than he/she would never become an… experienced paddler.

I do have a selfish, personal stake in all of this, since I benefited from Mr.Attenborough’s knowledge & skill when he taught me a full range of rescues and tows during NSPN trip leader training. I am thankful that he and others ventured out in conditions that have led to the need for acquisition of these skills in the first place.

[RogerPollock]

Munchmog,

I don’t know who you are or how you pass you leisure time (perhaps only ensconced in a troll cave, avoiding having to make a judgment that might expose you to risk), but you’re making value calls you can’t possibly have a clue about, and are plain stupid to speculate upon.

Would a rescue professional’s parents want to have their child back who died in the line of duty? Of course . . . Would it make a difference if that rescue professional was trying to extricate someone due to say, a just medical issue? I mean, how does that make it any easier to swallow? Those folks take the job, in extremely selfless fashion, to help everybody and anybody in trouble, irrespective of who they might be or how they got into that situation. Weather changes unpredictably, MISTAKES are made (we’re all human, right?) and bad judgments occur. That’s why these people do what they do. But, you’re saying, in the scheme of things it’s better for a rescue professional to die trying to save somebody only if they didn’t make a stupid mistake? That’s idiotic . . .

Like, would you rather be killed by a drunk driver, or by having your wheel fly off your car at 60mph? Which one is more random and senseless?

Why don’t we pipe down and wait for the trip report . . .

Jeez Louise!!

[sings_evil_twin]

The rescuer who died. Condolence to his family. But if you ask them, I bet they would confirm that he had been in dangerous circumstances before. It's familiar territory. When he trained to be a rescuer, he probably went through similar or even more challenging conditions. If not, how would even believe that he had the wherewithal to be able to "rescue" someone in dangerous conditions?

The line between rescuee and rescuer is a very thin one. Both are "risk takers" to a relative to the general population.

As a paddler, you are a "risk taker" compared to the increasing sedentary population. Don't want risk? Stay home. Anytime you call for assistance outside of your house (or from your house, for that matter...), you risking someone.

sing

[Adam Bolonsky]

Hi Keith and John,

glad to hear you guys made it out okay. Sounds like it was a long day.

I hope you can add details in your report on what type of flares you used, what it was like to light them while you were in the water...and other details like whether you used handheld flares after launching the rockets.

And how did the rescue swimmer handle himself? And what was the lift in the rescue basket like?

Any way you can could get and post a transcript of the 16/22a conversation you had with the CG and Harbormaster?

[Nick Schade]

> A friend of mine lost his best

>friend in small avalanche while on a rescue mission on Mt.

>Washington trying to save three climbers (all survived) that

>foolishly decided they could handle the coming weather

>conditions.

I'm curious as to what this friend of a friend did on his time off. Did he stay home and practice his rescue skills in the basement? Much more likely he went out and played in White Mountains. If he had the skills to go to the aid of others it is probably because he took risks to learn those skills. Technical mountain rescue skills can not be learned in a safe manner.

If you ever make a mistake or experience a problem out on the water and need a assistance it is people like Keith and John who are going to provide it.

After events like this there are always people so confident in their own infallibility that they feel justified in castigating the choices others make. I suspect Keith and John will happily admit that they made mistakes. It is the people who think they are above making mistakes who are the most dangerous. I suggest you look back at your own paddling career and see if you never made any choices you would now consider stupid. I doubt there is anyone in NSPN who did not at one time or another paddle on cold water with poor immersion protection, or make a crossing to an island without knowing what the conditions on the crossing were going to be. If you are now an experienced kayaker, it is only by pushing your limits that you gained that experience. Most of the time our survival of stupid mistakes is just dumb luck.

Part of the learning process from this event will be picking apart the mistakes Keith and John made, but the fact that they had to be rescued is not evidence that they should not have even been on the water. We need more information before we can know what they did wrong.

[Dee Hall]

Thanks, Nick, for a very good response on risk, judgement, and skill without making it personal attack on anybody's capabilities or actions.

The conditions on Sunday were extremely variable from spot to spot. There was a surf session scheduled that didn't happen because there were no waves at an exposed beach facing the same direction as Plum Island. However, the rescue pictures show some whitewater.

The news reports mention rip currents, evidence of which can be difficult to see sitting low in a kayak. I would certainly like to have much more experience in spotting them myself as I don't have much confidence at this point.

I look forward to Keith's reports which are always well written.

-Dee

[glad]

I don't think think there is much value to focusing on the negative and right or wrong. If that is the case, you may not get the whole story.

More important, let's use this as an opportunity to learn and appreciate that our friends are safe and sound.

Karen

[Jed]

>The conditions on Sunday were extremely variable from spot

>to spot. There was a surf session scheduled that didn't

>happen because there were no waves at an exposed beach

>facing the same direction as Plum Island. However, the

>rescue pictures show some whitewater.

There were lots of people out and about in that general area this weekend, a lot of high-end paddlers honing their skills in the roughs. Plum Island Sound can be unique in it's variability and how quickly conditions can change. It's one of the local proving grounds for rough water paddlers.

>I look forward to Keith's reports which are always well written.

Over the years Keith has set the standard for detailed and accurate incedent reports. His writtings have educated numerous paddlers both within NSPN and outside the club. He has always been an inspiration to me personally. Incidents like this serve as a reminder for those that seek the excitement of the roughs and provide real-world examples for everyone of why we train to develope our skills. I too look forward to his report and hope the "monday morning quarterbacks" can keep things down to a dull roar untill all the facts are in. There's nothing to be gained by speculation and pre-judgement before the facts are in can only limit an open discussion.

Cheers,

Jed

The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . .

   . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

[rick stoehrer]

Let's start with...

"Man, some of the replies here infer some serious ignorance"

The replies may or may not IMPLY ignorance, but only you can draw an INFERENCE; yours happens to be wrong. Regardless, English...learn it, love it.

Moving along to...

"Such bravado is just peachy as long as no one dies trying to save people who didn't have the sense not take unwarranted risk or didn't possess the guts to live with their poor judgement and accept the consequences without endangering others"

Okay...no one died. So, we're just peachy? Good, you should stop now. But you go on about not having sense about taking unwarranted risks...BUT YOU CAN'T POSIBLY know that the risks were warranted or unwarranted because YOU AREN'T these guys with their skills set and experience and YOU WEREN'T THERE, were you? So now, you're just talking out your a$$.

As far as "...possess the guts to live with poor judgement......endangering others"....WOW, YOU'RE the one that always drives the speed limit! Man, you drive me freakin' crazy! Stay in the right hand lane. For the record, you especially come across as a hypocritical, judgemental tool in that sentence.

Concerning Mt. Washington. Someone died trying to help another. No one made them do it. They were there by choice. They garnered the skills to be there by choice. Further, by extending your arguments, they were at fault because their skills weren't up to the task and they died in an avalanche.

You've made your opinion clear.

[kattenbo]

>Hi Keith and John,

>glad to hear you guys made it out okay. Sounds like it was a

>long day.

>

>I hope you can add details in your report on what type of

>flares you used, what it was like to light them while you

>were in the water...and other details like whether you used

>handheld flares after launching the rockets.

>

>And how did the rescue swimmer handle himself? And what was

>the lift in the rescue basket like?

>

>Any way you can could get and post a transcript of the

>16/22a conversation you had with the CG and Harbormaster?

Adam;

We'll include flare types, etc. in the report. Didn't have hand helds - smoke would have helped - will be adding that.

Swimmer was great (yeah USCG). Will talk about the basket ride (very straightforward).

I'll see about getting the transcript, didn't know that was possible, but will ask - is "16/22a" the offical name? Will be interested if they recorded the bubbles (as we'd get hit with a wave on just about every transmit).

Keith

[natalia]

Keith,

I'm glad to hear that you and John are ok.

Natalia

[Adam Bolonsky]

Hi Keith,

the 16/22a would be your initial call on 16 (I assume) followed by continuing the conversation on 22a.

I don't know what the CG and H'master did with you guys, but often the CG flips rescue calls to 22a so that 16 thus remains open for any other rescue calls from other boaters elsewhere.

Each time I've contacted the CG, it's always been initial contact on 16, then they've told me to switch to 22a for details and further comms.

But maybe the protocol is different for complex rescue scenarios.

[Gary B]

Keith,

Glad to here you are both OK.

It's evident that you both were prepared for when the $hit hit the fan. Thanks in advance for sharing your experience with us so that we can all take something good out of your calamity.

Looking forward to an interesting read.

Thanks again and welcome back from the edge.

Gary B

[jonsprag1]

I'm glad you guys are ok. Was anybody able to get your boats? After perusing some of the comments above I just have this to say---what happened to you could happen to anybody. There have been times that I've launched in relativly safe conditions only to have unforcasted winds create seas more severe than I was comfortable with---I can think of at least three occasions where that has happened. I was lucky enough not to go over, but well could have with a misplaced brace or untimly balence shift. In all three times the conditions when I started were relativly benign but deteriorated over the course of the trip. The increased wind and waves were not predicted and not in the marine forcast. What started out as trips with 2-3 foot waves in 10-15 knot winds ended up as 4-6 foot waves in 25-30 knot winds. That's why we train as hard as we do, carry the proper rescue equipment, including a VHF radio and wear the appropriate immersion clothing. Sea kayaking is a relativly safe activity---as a guide I've taken lots of first timers out without serious incident---(I'm knocking on wood as I write this) Occasionally however things will happen---the paradox is the better equipped and more skilled we become the more likly we are to be caught in severe conditions and be in need of rescue---I go out regularly in conditons I would not take out guided novice clients in. And I regularly paddle in conditions now that I would not have when I was a novice. And I do so safely. Don't misunderstand me, I'm a conservative paddler who doesn't often push the envelope--I'm more comfortable in more severe winds and waves than I used to be primarily due to training, practice and experience with conditions. I don't tend to go out in really heavy weather, and when I do it's in sheltered conditions with limited fetch. But I understand the need to push the envelope on occasion and in fact have done it myself. Not to push myself would result in death, not by drowning, but from terminal boredom. With 20/20 hindsight all most any accidents can seem avoidable. The problem is that accidents aren't prevented in hindsight. I suppose my comment to those who want to avoid all risk-----is to take up golf.

[Nick Schade]

>the paradox is the better equipped and more skilled we become

>the more likly we are to be caught in severe conditions and

>be in need of rescue.

Take a look at the theory of "risk homeostasis" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_homeostasis

This theory suggests that people modify their actions depending on perceived risk to keep actual risk about constant. With improved ability people step up the difficulty of what they do to the point that the risk is about the same as when they did not have that ability. ABS brakes don't save as many lives as expected because people drive worse when they have them.

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Keith,

In re the above subject line, did you really flash that universal sign at PI?

[Brian Nystrom]

It must have taken some pretty "interesting" conditions for two paddlers as skilled and experienced as Keith and John to end up needing to be rescued. Their story is bound to be very instructional for all of us. I'm really glad they're both OK and very interested in reading the "gory details".

One key lesson that I hope won't get lost in all the melee is that being properly prepared from a gear and clothing standpoint probably saved their lives. This highlights the fact that when skill and/or judgement fail, preparation for immersion and rescue saves lives.

On the bright side, perhaps they'll be imortalized in a chapter in the next edition of "Sea Kayaker Deep Trouble". ;-)

Glad you made it back, guys!

[djlewis]

>One key lesson that I hope won't get lost in all the melee

>is that being properly prepared from a gear and clothing

>standpoint probably saved their lives. This highlights the

>fact that when skill and/or judgement fail, preparation for

>immersion and rescue saves lives.

Margins, margins, margins... it's all about margins.

--David.

[Brian Nystrom]

While any rescue has an element of danger for the rescuers, there't a considerable difference between climbers trudging around on unstable snow slopes and CG personnel ensconsed in boats and helicopters. From the few details we currently have, it seems doubtful that this was much more than a routine exersize for the CG crew.

Often, the difference between a "life threatening situation" and an "interesting experience" is the level of preparation. This has been demonstrated numerous times on trips where someone got into a sticky situation when pushing their limits and was quickly and safely rescued by the others in the group. The result was little more than another anecdote added to the experiences of the participants. Call it "real life training".

I'm not suggesting that we should be taking unnecessary risks just to give the Coast Guard something to do on a slow day, but your assessment of the risks they were taking seems greatly overblown.

[FishHawk]

Glad your ok. I don't post here that much but when I saw this it made me think of an incident that happened to me. Won't go into details but what I learned is that when real serious stuff happens it happens real quickly. What I learned from my experience is you must keep a cool head or it's over. FishHawk

[Gillian]

Kevin, thanks for the comic relief . . . I would have flipped off Plum Island if I were Keith too

[kattenbo]

>Keith,

>

>In re the above subject line, did you really flash that

>universal sign at PI?

Oh gosh, the best laugh I've had on this subject yet - thank you Kevin.

And no we didn't - but that's another thing I'll have to be sure to add to my emergency checklist.

Keith