Jed

Often cold hands and feet are the first signs of mild-hypothermia for the otherwise healthy and properly dressed, IMO. There are lots of mechanisms that can lead to cold extremities for paddlers: inadequate thermal protection (heat loss), mechanical restriction of the blood vessels (restricted blood-flow), Raynaud's Syndrome (restricted blood flow due to stress or cold) and/or lack of fuel (lowered metabolism) to name some of the possibilities. Since you warmed up quickly once the cag was on, it sounds like the problem was heat loss from something other than the hands and feet, likely the head or neck. The old adage about putting on a hat if you have cold feet is a great example of this effect. As soon as the body detects a compromise in it's ability to maintain core temp, the hands and feet are the first things on the hit list. When things get to this point, working the hands and feet won’t do much, there just isn’t enough musculature in the hands and feet to create much heat. The only way to warm them is to reestablish blood-flow to the extremity, typically by raising the core-temp and reducing any restrictions. I can't think of an example when someone has been hypothermic (even mildly) and their hands and feet weren't very cold. I'm not sure it's possible for a healthy person to be hypothermic and still have relatively warm hands and feet. For me the distinction is between feeling the cold and being cold. With the “feeling the cold” happening via the otherwise warm skin and the “being cold” permeating through the skin to deeper tissues. cheers, Jed

If reading helps with your process, then by all means read anything and everything that you feel will help Of course, nothing short of getting out in the chop and confused water will drive all the theory into practical skills. There are lots of ways to dial-in just enough excitement to promote learning without exposing yourself to the kind of death-defying feats of elite storm paddlers. Slow moving water can teach you a lot about how currents and eddy's work. White water is great for this but if that's too intense, you may want to try milder stuff - there's plenty to be had in the local area. Just watch your current direction vs wind direction (bodies in the water are carried by the current while boats are pushed by the wind). Surf zones (inside the breakers) and rock gardens are great for learning how to chill-out while the boat is being pushed around beneath you. There are small races all over the place (Sullivan Falls, The Piscat @ Portsmouth and upriver, the Straight between Long Island and Peaks @ Casco, Woods Hole, etc) there's not enough space to name them all. I have a preference for those features in the ocean and larger rivers since the exposure is normally limited to a small area and the wash-out is huge and knackered-paddler friendly. You'll find most paddlers will gladly help out someone looking to push their limits a bit into the rougher water games. When you do well, they'll be your cheering section and when you slip-up, they'll take advantage of the opportunity for rescue practice - so everybody wins!!. Once you get comfortable with swimming a little in rough water, then a class (or a few) of some sort is highly recommended. cheers and good luck, Jed

That was a fun day. What ever happened to those idiots that went out as test dummies? ;-) cheers,

OK, I'll take the other side of the issue (it's been a while since BNystrom and I went toe-to-toe). While overall there may be few hard and fast rules . . you'd be hard pressed to find an experienced paddler that would use either a skeg or a rudder if the goal is to play in and/or move around/across currents. Lest you think I'm dis'ing Nick - in Nick's example he liked a bit of skeg while surfing but in that case he's not moving through any eddy. When it came time to move through the eddie Nick chose to reduce the effect of the skeg by raising the skeg (either a bit or completely). The fact is that you don't want to pin the stern relative to a current in this type of dynamic situation. It just makes the boat more difficult to control. WW boats and WW canoes have neither skegs nor rudders for very good reasons. Firstly, there's little need. Each end of the boat is going to move relative to what ever current is in effect at the various ends of the boat. The only exception I can think of is if you need a bit of skeg to balance the stern of a boat that is loaded bow-heavy. Other than that and Nick's surfing example, loose bows and sterns are the key to big smiles in current. Want to go downstream? Push the bow into the current at any angle greater than about 30° off directly upstream and the bow will turn downstream Want to go upstream? Push the bow into the current at any angle less than about 30° to directly upstream and paddle like hell. Want to just spin on the eddie-line? Push the bow out enough to catch the current but not so much that the stern clears the eddie-line. This way you can do spins right on the eddie line with very little work on the paddler's part. The trick (and the fun) is to use the current to your advantage. For that a bare hull is the best tool. cheers,

>size wise, the sil nylon tarp is tiny....but i used one as a >sleeping shelter only once...and it soaked through in the >middle of the night (this is a month ago on thief) and i >awoke in my hammock, wet and hypothermic. not ideal really. > so not too impressed with sil nylon myself but again, maybe >it was just a one off ocurrence....although, my igloo >shelter is made of the same stuff and that will soak through >eventually as well....hmmn, maybe it's just a characteristic >of the material, after all? > >in any event, what about a bivy bag? small, waterproof, >minimal impact and free standing. not very bulky. Sorry to hear about your less than comfortable night on Thief. Been there, not fun. I'm not sure what you had over you, but I'd be surprised if your igloo is SilNylon. Even the SKGa cags are not actually SilNylon. My SilShelter (and my other SilNylon stuff) has work flawlessly over the past 5 years. Never had to seal seam, never had a leak. The SilShelter packs up smaller than a 16oz nalgene. I'll second the suggestion for a bivy. I tend to use a SilNylon tarp with a bivy beneath. works like a charm but not for those claustrophobic at heart. The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

Favorite tent for paddling . . Integral Design's Silshelter (a minimalist tarp-tent) can use a paddle split as it's only pole, tie down with stakes, sticks or deadmen. http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_det...producttypeid=1 . . plus a bug screen for black fly season . . . http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_det...producttypeid=1 cheers, The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

>Anybody in NSPN planning a trip like this for the coming >season? It's something I've thought about trying. Has anyone >done it or have advice. I paddle with the Chesapeake >Paddler's Assoc. (cpakayaker.com) in D.C. and will be in the >Boston area frequently on business in the near future. Page, It's a great little paddle as long as you are used to navigation in and around some medium-quick tidal currents. Unfortunately lot's of boat traffic (large and small), the potential for large and steep water and of course due to the currents your options are limited with respect to giving the traffic a wide berth and still making your intended landfall. Overall easy but without much margin for error. One too-slow rescue could ruin your day / weekend. I seem to remember it's only 3nm from Nobska Pt to West Chop. If you ride the current at max flood you'll be there in 1/2 hr. If you miss West Chop you can swing around to the east side of MV. Consider spending some time in town while the current abates. We've done it against the tide but in that case it's a bit of a treadmill paddling against 3-3.5 knots. I agree with the suggestion to study Eldgridge first. Personally I would not go with anyone that could not paddle for nearly 4 hrs @ 4 knots steady. But maybe I'm a bit cautious. (although some might disagree) ;-) cheers, The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

. . . well, . . in a pinch I guess we can always argue about gear, gear vs skills, speed vs skills, skills vs judgement, g-style vs euro, single vs dual-blades, the actual height of that wave, the "best" roll, kayak color, kayak speed, etc. ;-) cheers, ps I ran into a friend of yours in Detroit on his way to St Pete, . . JAllen The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

>>I'm thinking it would actually be better to hold off on 4* >until the new stuff is in place. Many coaches are including >a lot of the leadership in their 4* training sessions >already. I think you'll find it a bit of a moot point since most coaches have been pushing the 4* standard upwards for a while. At any rate as long as paddling if a life-long learning process, the relatively subtle changes that are planned will hardly be noticeable. cheers, The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

Allow me to "stir the pot" just a little bit. . . . David said: "I like your your point that the same body mechanics apply to both styles of paddle/rolls -- boat first, then body." . . and barely a breath later: "And it's not only more complex with euro, but also more "violent" -- a relatively quick "snap" rather than a long, slow bending." I don't believe that Greenland technique requires correct body alignment, as Kate stated, but it does encourage it. And the use of significantly lower-volume boats certainly facilitates the candidate's efforts towards learning to roll and perform other "off-balance" moves. Proper rolling technique is proper rolling technique, it is neither Greenlandic nor Euro in essence, it's just proper rolling technique. OK, ok, if I have to call it one or the other I'd have to give the nod to the Greenlandic crowd. But the point is Euro doesn't have to be "snappy" or "athletic" or "violent". That may be how some people teach it or how many people express it but that is not how it HAS to be. Picture someone doing a slow and graceful hand-roll while holding the shaft of a paddle. If the roll is not dependent on the paddle then it matters little what style or brand or color or length of paddle is used because the roll is not dependent on the paddle. "C to C" rolls are "violent" (to use David's words) because they are being done poorly or rapidly (possible for safety reasons / hazard avoidance). Should the expression of poor / improper or hurried technique be cited as an example of the flaws attributed to a style of rolling? By extension of that logic, very few people should even paddle at all. Euro rolling candidates quickly learn that they can muscle their way to oxygen. Greenland rolling candidates quickly learn that they can float or sweep their way to oxygen with a buoyant and forgiving paddle. I don't know which is preferred - both have their limitations and potential crutches. Don't we all know people that "got their roll" but are unable to repeat it in a different boat or with a different paddle or on a different day? There is a huge difference between rolling a few times and "getting one's roll" just as there is a huge difference between "getting a roll" and mastering the art of rolling. Kate, In general I agree with you about greenlandic technique and you may be right that it's better to learn greenlandic rolling first. Certainly many, many people could vastly extend their appreciation of the sport by learning and practicing greenlandic techniques (beyond just rolling) and the associated philosophy of paddling. I personally hold Greenlandic skills in very high regard, having studied them each and every of my paddling years. And I enjoy immensely utilizing the lessons learned while paddling with whatever I choose to use (stick or shovel) on a particular day. My personal advise to those that aspire to learn to roll: 0) Get flexible. No matter how much you may "want" - "being able" requires some flexibility. The more flexibility you have the less your choice of paddle or style will matter. 1) Buy, borrow or build a boat that has only enough volume to float you without any gear. 2) Find a teacher that can teach you either (both is better) a "palm-up" Greenland hand / norsaq roll or a "C to C" hand roll. 3) Practice the above until you can roll on either side, in any conditions, in any reasonably sized boat, rested or tired, with or without nose plugs, whether someone is watching or not. 4) Learn to do the above whilst hold a paddling in your off-side hand. 5) Learn to move the paddle as if you were going to use it for support, then let go of the paddle and roll with hands alone. 6) Do the above without letting go of your paddle. Cheers, The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

Are you mounting to poly or fibreglass ? Consider using brass bolts, washers & nuts rather than the supplied screws. Neither plastic nor fibreglass is great at holding screws and the pointy ends will tear up your gear. If you switch to bolts just size the hole so that the bolt slides thru with minimal resistance. To size pilot holes for screws: If poly: Hold the drill bit up behind the screw threads such that the bit and the screw are overlaid. Select a drill size that cover's the narrowest part of the thread (the post) but does not cover the threads themselves. You'll need good eyes / glasses for this. A pilot hole of this size will allow the threads to "cut" into the plastic but will not cause the plastic to "mushroom" too badly. if fibreglass: As above but you'll have to go slightly larger since the fibreglass will not form around the threads. For fibreglass I size my bits such that 1/2 of the actual thread depth (height of the thread from the post) is covered. This way the material that the thread "cuts" out of the fibreglass has a place to go. if either case: Once drilled, "butter" the bolt or screw with silicone sealant just before you install. The silicone will fill any voids / provide a watertight seal and lubricate the screws bolts for installation. Cheers, Jed The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

>But why can he post on the General Message Board but not >Private Trips? Cookies should not explain that. > >reboot your system and try again. It could be Windoze gremlins. lol Just another cute little "feature" of the WinTel experience, brought to you by your benevolent dictator, Lord William Gates. ;-) * WEG * PS Macs will soon run WinTel apps . . . . Cheers, The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

Check to be sure you have cookies enabled. I had the same problem a while back. Jed The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

>The conditions on Sunday were extremely variable from spot >to spot. There was a surf session scheduled that didn't >happen because there were no waves at an exposed beach >facing the same direction as Plum Island. However, the >rescue pictures show some whitewater. There were lots of people out and about in that general area this weekend, a lot of high-end paddlers honing their skills in the roughs. Plum Island Sound can be unique in it's variability and how quickly conditions can change. It's one of the local proving grounds for rough water paddlers. >I look forward to Keith's reports which are always well written. Over the years Keith has set the standard for detailed and accurate incedent reports. His writtings have educated numerous paddlers both within NSPN and outside the club. He has always been an inspiration to me personally. Incidents like this serve as a reminder for those that seek the excitement of the roughs and provide real-world examples for everyone of why we train to develope our skills. I too look forward to his report and hope the "monday morning quarterbacks" can keep things down to a dull roar untill all the facts are in. There's nothing to be gained by speculation and pre-judgement before the facts are in can only limit an open discussion. Cheers, Jed The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

. . when your name gets in the paper. But in this case it sure beats the alternative. Glad to hear you are both safe. The 'sound' can get a whole lot uglier than many people imagine. Take care of yourself and don't fret too much over the comments that the flat-water paddlers will toss into this thread. Cheers, Jed The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

Scott, From the time-stamps it looks like you were acccessing the file just as i was updating the site. I just checked at 7:20pm and the link worked. You should be able to take a look whenever you want now. I won't be doing any maintainance tonight. ;-) Have a great evening, stay safe! I hope you find the article usefull. Cheers, Jed www.teamnorthatlantic.com >Link does not work for me Dec 31 at 6 PM. Looks like it got >caught up in the new website. > >When it's working, I'd like to see the illustration. > >Best, >Scott The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

David, I tried the 2-bight version and it seemed to hold but was harder to get / keep the knot tight. But it's certainly worth a try. I guess it boils down to whether or not the release loop can be pulled through the "load-side" loop. You may be right, I seem to remember Steve saying "load-side, then release-side". I guess the extra loop is just my version of his knot. I do like the extra security and bullet-proof structure of the first "release-side" loop version though . . Cheers, Jed The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience.

Well, this presentation isn't as slick as the animated knots site but I think this is the knot that you are talking about. http://www.teamnorthatlantic.com/n2_2knots.html Cheers, Jed The ability to defend our beliefs with absolute certainty . . . . . . is often inversely proportional to our level of experience. Edited 12/31/05 The link has been updated to a new formatted page.

Jill, With equal respect to both you and Bob Foote: . . . pushing forward with the offside foot at the start of the roll encourages the torso to move from forward bending towards leaning back. Certainly one way to get the torso to move out away from the boat but not necessarily in the most advantageous direction. The most effective way to apply the torque required to rotate the boat upright is to apply torque perpendicular to the boat's longitudinal axis and as close as possible to the boat's center of rotational resistance. To this end, ideally the torso is positioned at the surface of the water directly to the side of the boat while the boat is still upside down prior to the hip-snap / hip-rotation component of a roll. In actual practice the hip-rotation is often initiated prior to the torso being fully perpendicular to the boat, but that a stylistic variation. The simplest way to get to this position is to sweep the torso to the side, after the set-up, much as we do when we move from a (standing) forward bend to a full side bend. This may make a good dry-land rolling exercise for those seeking to learn to roll. In this dry-land case we push outwards with our on-side foot to get the torso to move in the opposite direction. In actual rolling application this can be done with either the on-side foot and knee or just the knee alone. If one concentrates on pushing forward on either foot peg to initiate the sweep their torso will unbend but it will not sweep to the side. If we try to use the foot pegs while we concentrate on sweeping the torso to the side we are pushing sideways on the pegs. In this case the off-side foot may well slide off the peg. This is not to say that Bob Foote was incorrect in using this "point of focus" with specific candidates but rather that this "point of focus" is a secondary thing and not fundamental or universal to rolling a boat. The most important component of a bombproof roll is hip rotation as is evidenced by those that roll without paddles, hands or feet. When the ability to rotate one's hips is limited, which is often the case, we all look to other things to enhance our roll. My point is that all these other things can distract us from what really matters, the hip rotation. If pushing with the off-side foot is critical to the initiation of the sweep, then how is it that people can roll without the use of their feet? If a climbing paddle angle is crucial during the sweep then how is it that people can roll without paddles? The more we discount the importance of the hip-rotation that more we encourage candidates to look for other remedies. Rolling candidates would do themselves a favor to learn to trust and use their hips. Everything else boils down to minor variations in style. John, Regarding yaw: Anything that makes the boat yaw during a roll is wasted energy. Common causes are straightening the body by pushing on the foot pegs during the sweep, an overly aggressive angle on the paddle during the sweep and lastly the resistance of the torso in the water as it moves to the side. Nothing you can do inside the boat will counteract these other forces. In order to minimize yaw during rolling we must minimize the drag of the paddle during the sweep, much like C-to-C and Slash rolling proponents do. Ralph's hint to reduce the angle on the paddle is a commonly used technique to reduce this drag and the resultant yaw for a sweep or screw roll. An extreme expression of Ralph's hint is commonly refered to as the "Slash Roll". Reducing the amount of yaw in any one roll is a worthy goal. To really test your progress check you position after 5 consequetive rolls. The boat should neither yaw nor move laterally with each roll. To all, This has been fun and a welcome distration from a previous thread but we're burning valuable daylight. I'm off to pack for a busy month. I look forward to your comments when I return. Cheers, Jed

>. . . having a bit of difficulty rolling my boat > I wasn’t initiating good hip and/or leg action > hips felt strangely paralyzed Feat are not technically required to roll (neither is any part of the leg below the knee) Rolling is fundamentally about the paddler's ability to: 1) pull the torso towards the surface (set up) 2) sweep the torso along the surface (sweep) 3) rotate the hips (hip rotation, hips-flick, C to C) 4) apply the above with flexibility, range of motion and proper timing / overlap Note that the above requires the use of muscles from your knees, hips and torso up to your head but not arms, hands or feet. If your foot pegs are too close your legs can feel "bound" and your hips may experience sympathetic tension, effectively taking hip flexion out of the equation. Since your hip range of motion is the single most important component for rolling, anything that causes your hips to "tighten up" is contraindicated. Nigel's comments about foot peg / leg position are typical direction from the alphabet soup of collective knowledge. It's not the leg position that is important but rather the "freeing" of the hips that is providing the difference that you feel. Ralph's technique of climbing into the forward part of the boat is well documented and is used by many of the best G-style rollers for aft-finishing and/or speed rolls. There are solid physics-based explanations for the advantages of this position but I won't bore you with the technical explanation. Better to just try it and see for yourself. Instructors tell a lot of different students a lot of different things to help them perform one body movement or another. In part this is because few paddlers have any language / experience that allows them to follow a verbal description of any complicated physical movement with any accuracy. Each new roller typically has one or two "tricks" or "points of focus" that helped them "find" their roll or some other stroke. Unfortunately we are all different so one person's "point of focus" may not work well for someone else. An instructors ability to dial in an effective "point of focus" for a particular student is often the determining factor between success or lack of and hence the instructors value or lack of to that particular student. Lastly, leg position / comfort and general outfitting are a common "points of focus" for many instructors but these issues are normally resolved long before the student attempts to learn to roll. > If anyone responds to this, please try to leave out the >second, third and twenty first letter of the alphabet, Sorry, I needed to use most of the letters of the alphabet to write this response. BeCaUse the words that I needed required use of most of the alphabet. I was however able to avoid using the letter "Z". I hope that is acceptable. Cheers, Jed working for "freedom of training" for every paddler

Is Webster's disctionary not a sufficient source to settle this question with regard to "the King's" vc "Armerican" english? Main Entry: weir Pronunciation: 'war, 'wer, 'wir Function: noun Etymology: Middle English were, from Old English wer; akin to Old Norse ver fishing place, Old High German werien, werren to defend 1 : a fence or enclosure set in a waterway for taking fish 2 : a dam in a stream or river to raise the water level or divert its flow Have we had enough? I venture to say that for many the BCU is their first exposure to the word "weir". Jed

>The material discussed ("cag", "weir", etc.) is >inappropriately presented to the audience in a manner that >has obviously made it more difficult to learn. The object >of the class is to educate the student and the curriculum is >most effective if targeted to the student, not the teacher. >As the material is relevant, even crucial, it would be in >the best interest of the (safety of the) student if >presented in the native language of the student. What presentation? What class? What knowledge do you have about how this information is presented? The original poster pulled some bits of questions from a .pdf file that is intended to give the reader a sense of the depth and breadth of the standard. That document does not present any information other than a general view of the scope of the standard and some examples of possible questions related to theory. That document is not a study guide. The knowledge and information required to successfully assess of 3* is available in the public domain and clearly documented in the BCU handbook. Alternatively paddlers can take training from any number of local sources for in-depth / personal instruction. The BCU doesn't want to do business in the US. The American paddlers want do bring the BCU standard here. It is not incumbent on the BCU to localize their curricula for a market that they neither desire to develop nor claim to support. "Native Language" ?? Do you really expect the brits to have any sympathy for what Americans have done to THEIR language ?? Cheers, Jed

>Thank You. You are quite welcome. Cheers, Jed

>...would ANY assessor actually fail someone because they >couldn't answer such relatively pointless questions? That >seems completely inconceiveable. Pointless questions? Who are famous users of kayaks for hunting? ** The Inuit and the Aluet. The creators of the earliest kayaks and those to whom we owe our thanks for having developed the craft and art. Why are weirs dangerous? ** A weir is a type of dam. They are dangerous because they can create "keeper holes", aka hydraulics that could hold and eventually drown an inexperienced paddler. Do a search on "low-head dams" to see just how dangerous these little puppies can be. What is Leptospirosis and what precautions should you take against it? ** "Leptospirosis is a bacterial disease that affects humans and animals. It is caused by bacteria of the genus Leptospira. Symptoms of leptospirosis include high fever, severe headache, chills, muscle aches, and vomiting, and may include jaundice, red eyes, abdominal pain, diarrhea, or a rash. If the disease is not treated, the patient could develop kidney damage, meningitis, liver failure, and respiratory distress. In rare cases death occurs." What is the main difference between a 'dry cag' and a wetsuit? ** A dry cag (known in the state as a drysuit or drytop, provides a waterproof barrier between the paddler and the water, while not insulation per se, when used in conjunction with insulation it provides significant protection from very cold water. A wet suit functions by holding a thin layer of warmed water next to the skin (a micro-climate). While helpfull in cool water, few people have the courage to use only wetsuits in very cold conditions. Brian, I'm surprised to hear you refer to questions like this as pointless. I consider each of these questions (with the posible exception of Leptospirosis) to speak very much to the point of paddling and safety in our local area. Even the issue of leptospirosis is important to those that paddle in the tropics and agricultural settings. I don't know what as assessor would do if a 3* candidate had no general knowledge of paddling. But I for one certainly would not be impressed by such a candidate. Cheers, Jed

These theory questions are examples of the BCU's British origins. Somewhat confusing for Americans but understandable given the history of the BCU. Though not completely neccessary, it is advantageous to learn to speak the King's English before your assessment. The questions that you posted are all answered in great detail in the BCU Canoe Handbook. You can get this book many places but certainly from Maine Island Kayak or Atlantic Kayak Tours. Cheers and happy hunting, Jed