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Posted

Hello!  It's been some time since I've visited here, but the sea is calling me again.  I have an issue with feeling stable in a kayak in the ocean.  I know much of this is me and not the boat.  However, in some boats, I feel the level of stability I crave, while in others I feel like I will tip over at any moment.

The NDK Explorer (21.5" beam) is legendary for it's stability (as I've read) yet I could never feel comfortable in that boat.  The slightest lean the wrong way and I was doing a half roll.  I'm a rookie so I never figured out how to properly brace or get to the pool sessions to learn how to roll.  I surmise that if I knew how to brace and roll, my fear would go away?  Needless to say, after a harrowing experience in a storm on the Maine Coast, I sold that boat 2 summers ago.

I still have a Lincoln Chebeague which is a total joy to paddle.  High level of primary stability and secondary, but a bit short for longer ocean paddles at speed.  The beam on this boat is 24".

I demo'd a series of P&H boats after I sold the NDK and the boat I loved was the P&H Scorpio HV with a 24" beam.  Felt rock solid stable while the MV felt less so (narrower beam).

I've heard people say on this forum that beam width doesn't determine stability, but rather hull shape does?  If this is true, then what hull shape am I looking for that will give me confidence inspiring primary stability with solid secondary to allow me to learn and grow with the boat without putting the fear of God in me out in the ocean?

I'm looking to get into another boat and with Covid, I can't easily demo.  While I love the Scorpio HV it's a beast to get on and off the SUV and I'm not doing any overnight paddles.  I like the looks of the new Virgo in terms of beam width (23"), length, and weight but will it provide confidence-inspiring stability?  Also considering a Delphin 155 (22.5" beam), but I'm concerned this boat will feel like I'm back in my NDK?

Appreciate your advice.

Posted

Feeling of stability in a kayak is often a  personal thing. Paddlers in one boat may just not feel comfortable in another, though  being secure and stable in a kayak   is a muscle memory thing, and feeling unstable is often overcome with time in a boat. I've seen an  experienced paddler feeling  initially shaky in an Explorer   after  switching from a Tiderace , where one  is not objectively more stable than the other.   Each boat has its own stability profile.
 

But to generalize, yes , more beam likely means more intitial stability, with the  tradeoff that a wider boat is often slower and less "performance" for paddlers looking for that sort of thing . So your 24" Chebeague is likely to be more stable  , but as you paddle more and become more comfortable with the ocean and all its dynamics (waves, current, and so on)  you may find yourself looking for a boat that can do more. 
As a general rule, most of the kayaks that experienced paddlers  use  are 21-22" wide : below 21",  more skill and  experience is needed to handle the kayak competently, above 23"  most kayaks  start to reveal limitations in speed and  "performance ". 
The P & H Cetus is a big boat but famously stable with alot of handling  & performance qualities,  (but with  some tradeoffs)  so that boat would  worth at least a look.  

Posted

On the question of what is the primary factor in the amount of "primary stability", I believe most would say it is the kayak's beam as Peter said.  No doubt the water plane when level is a p-art of that.  The terms "primary stability" and "secondary stability" are rather slippery.  You might find the following of interest although I don't buy everything he says.  If for no other reason than once upon a time liked the P&H Bayiha very much and it, along with the Nordkapp, is usually considered a "tippy" sea kayak.

https://paddlingmag.com/stories/columns/rock-the-boat/why-theres-no-such-thing-as-secondary-stability-in-sea-kayaks/

As for your feelings about how stable any given kayak feels to you,  time in a boat and skill level are factors, but also very important are how much you weigh, your overall size, center of mass. Without that information, impossible to know what kayak would be suitable and then the question is suitable for what?  Different paddlers enjoy doing different things when they paddle and that influences kayak selection.

Often people migrate from one boat to another as their comfort level increases, their understanding of what they want in a kayak changes, and/or their interests change.  As Peter says, it is a very personal choice. It is not unheard of for someone to initially not like a kayak, but become very fond and trusting of it over time as well as to doggedly keep paddling a highly touted boat even though they never really become comfy with it.

This may seem like heresy, but I suspect the Chebeague is a perfectly nice boat, fast enough, seaworthy and adequate for weekend camping trips.  So you could do a lot worse than just take the boat you have and go paddle it as much as you can in as great a variety of water as you can.  Then you will develop a better "feel" and understanding of what works for you and that will be important when it comes time to get a different kayak.

 

Ed Lawqson

 

Posted (edited)

Primary stability is a bit like bicycle training wheels - feels great at first, but it's worthwhile to take the time to do without them. Boat designers have a design trade-off between primary and other maneuvering options: tracking, turning, surfability, etc.  If you pick a boat with high primary, the learning curve is very quick until you start to demand more from your boat, and then you hit a proverbial 'brick wall'.  Boats like thew Nordkapp deliberately sacrifice primary stability for other seakeeping features, and they assume their paddlers will take the time to overcome lack of primary stability. 

So I would suggest to take a BCU 2* class or somesuch to learn how to overcome balance issues.  For me, it's hard to imagine an Explorer would give you problems in rough water (unless you;re over 6'4", 250 lbs), and with just a few hours of practicing bracing, you'll learn to take full advantage of the boat. 

Edited by josko
Posted
4 hours ago, BigBird said:

I'm a rookie so I never figured out how to properly brace or get to the pool sessions to learn how to roll.  I surmise that if I knew how to brace and roll, my fear would go away?

This is, in my opinion, the most important part of the conversation.  There is NO kayak that will prevent you from having a harrowing experience in a storm along the Maine coast, but skill will make the situation better.  If you choose a kayak based on where your skills are now, your skills will remain where they are.  If you are willing to "grow" into a more capable boat, you will learn quickly and be happier with the results.

My suggestion would be to renew your membership and take advantage of as many lake sessions, skills sessions, or professional trainings, all of which can help you work on your stability and bracing.  This is a critical first step in getting comfortable in any sea kayak, and will have a profound affect on which boat you choose next.  Who knows, maybe you will be back in an explorer before you know it!

Posted

There is a lot of good advice offered above and I would second all of it. Along with all of this good advice I would also like to add the importance of proper posture. How one sits in the kayak can have an effect on how stable one feels. You should strive to sit in an upright position and remain relaxed in the hips. By relaxing the hips the paddler allows the kayak to behave as it was designed to. Generally speaking if the paddler gets nervous and tenses up they will feel even more unstable. It often helps to take a few lessons with a qualified instructor. Add to this a bit of experience and with proper boat fit a paddler should be able to feel comfortable in any sea kayak.

Posted

Thank you all for sharing your experiences and providing feedback.  I've paddled with some of you in the past and enjoyed it immensely (Rob & Cathy, Jonathan, Bob L., and others).  The reality is I don't live that close to the ocean (roughly an hour), and have limited time to go sea kayaking raising 3 teens.  My wife and I get the most sea kayaking in for one week every August while camping up at Hermit Island in Maine w the kids.  During this week, I paddle every day and she gets out a few times.  We just enjoy day touring and sightseeing.  The rest of the year, we're lucky if we make it to the ocean at all and usually end up at Walden Pond just to paddle and cool off.

With that said, I'm looking to add another boat to the stable so we can kayak together (down to just the Lincoln now) and also go with a couple of friends who are beginner kayakers like me who recently bought used boats off CL (wilderness systems tempest 17' and necky chatham 17') so I want to choose something that I can grow into, enjoy day touring with my wife, and keep up with the guys on an ocean paddle.  

I'm 50 y.o. with the flexibility of the Tin Man and a lifetime of injuries from sports that I'm starting to pay for now.  I'm 6'0 188lbs with a 32" inseam if that means something to someone on here.  I still can ski the bumps in the woods all day long chasing my 17 yr old son (ok, well at least until noon) and enjoyed triathlon for several years.  For the cyclists in the group, I ride a Cervelo S5 and I enjoy going fast.  In other words, I'm not a couch potato so not sure why I have such horrible balance sitting on a balance beam (how the NDK felt)?  Perhaps it's just the irrational fear of going overboard and not being able to get back in the boat?  I do agree that if I could learn how to roll, I would probably be more open to getting back into an Explorer :)

Posted

Also, several years ago my wife and I rented kayaks from a small shop in Rockport (I believe).  We went out on the ocean on a nice day with a tour guide.  I believe their entire fleet was Wilderness Systems.  I don't recall the exact boats we were put in, but I'm guessing they were something like the Tsunami or Tempest.  Narrow beams ~21.5" and 16' - 17' long and they never felt tippy.  Is there something about the hull shape of the WS kayaks that causes the rental shops to use them knowing many beginners will be trying sea kayaking for the first time?  Since my friend just bought a Tempest, I'll have to give that one a go.

Posted
19 hours ago, EEL said:

Here is the fist edition so to speak of Brian's opinion about secondary stability.

https://kitchi-gami.com/2018/10/21/sea-kayaks-there-is-no-such-thing-as-secondary-stability/

I agree with the second edition far more than I do the first edition and I had intended to refer to this one in my post.

Ed Lawson

 

Hi Ed,

Thanks for linking to that post. I prefer the version of the article on my site to the one on the Paddling Mag website. I had to trim it down for print.

After nearly thirty years of paddling sea kayaks I'm convinced that a kayak doesn't need to have light initial stability in order to perform well in rough conditions. I think the Cetus proves this point, as do other stable boats like the NDK Explorer.

The critical bit is really the ability to edge the boat and hold it on edge. A bigger guy can do this in a wider boat. The same guy will feel really tippy in a narrower boat, even a stable one like an Explorer.

I like boats with flattish hulls under the seat. I like Swede form shapes, too as I believe they make edging easier and improve felt stability in a design. Didn't always think this way. The Cetus changed my mind.

I worked for P&H from 2009-2017 and ran US/Canada distribution for a few years, so I can answer Big Bird's questions on the Delphin. I think he'll find the Delphin 155 to be significantly more stable than the Explorer. Probably not as stable as the new, super size Scorpio, but still rock solid. Cetus HV is VERY stable. Virgo is new and something I haven't paddled. It's a little smaller and rounder than the Delphin. Probably not as stable. 

Bottom line is it depends on how big a guy Big Bird is. For guys well over 200# the Cetus HV, Romany Surf, Impex Assateague, Scorpio HV all offer better stability than the Explorer.

Learning to roll is a huge help. Whitewater boating is a huge help too. Fastest way to develop technical skills that are directly transferable to the sea.

This review of the CD Sisu digs into a few more bits of boat design esoterica and might be of interest to folks on the message board.

https://kitchi-gami.com/2020/05/10/gear-review-current-designs-sisu-sea-kayak/

Thanks again for the link.

Best,

Brian Day
www.kitchi-gami.com

Posted
9 hours ago, BigBird said:

I'm 50 y.o. with the flexibility of the Tin Man and a lifetime of injuries from sports that I'm starting to pay for now.  I'm 6'0 188lbs with a 32" inseam if that means something to someone on here.  I still can ski the bumps in the woods all day long chasing my 17 yr old son (ok, well at least until noon) and enjoyed triathlon for several years.  For the cyclists in the group, I ride a Cervelo S5 and I enjoy going fast.  In other words, I'm not a couch potato so not sure why I have such horrible balance sitting on a balance beam (how the NDK felt)?  Perhaps it's just the irrational fear of going overboard and not being able to get back in the boat?  I do agree that if I could learn how to roll, I would probably be more open to getting back into an Explorer :)

Hey Bob,

I think you probably got spooked and locked up the boat with your legs. Pretty normal. When things get spicy and the boat starts jumping around it's natural to grab onto the thighbraces and try to keep yourself upright. This actually makes you less stable. Locks your upper and lower body together and makes it harder to stay in balance over the boat. If I were to guess I would say this is what happened. Certainly you aren't too heavy for the boat.

To paraphrase William Nealy, relax, have a beer. Drop your legs away from the thighbraces in those kind of situations and you'll see a dramatic improvement in balance.

There's a head game at work. I've been spooked plenty of times on the sea. Especially when I was just starting out. Makes you feel really tippy. Here's a story about one of those times:

https://kitchi-gami.com/2018/06/04/pic-river-beatdown/

Definitely work on your roll. It opens up lots of options. Try a whitewater class, too. Cross training.

Brian Day
www.kitchi-gami.com

Posted

Brian:

What a great bit of writing is your  review of the Sisu.

I found many golden nuggets sprinkled throughout.  So many small things can have a big impact on how a kayak works.

Ed Lawson

 

 

 

Posted
16 minutes ago, EEL said:

Brian:

What a great bit of writing is your  review of the Sisu.

I found many golden nuggets sprinkled throughout.  So many small things can have a big impact on how a kayak works.

Ed Lawson

 

 

 

Thanks Ed. Really appreciate it. Glad you enjoyed the review.

Brian

Posted (edited)

Great discussion thread!  I've also been messing around in boats for 20+ years and mainly in boats with <24" beam for the past 10 or so.  I transitioned from traditional sea kayaks to surfskis in 2013, starting with an Epic V8 and working through the model line to my present  Epic V12.  For reference the beam of the V8 is a reasonable 21.25" and the V12 is a real stiletto at 16.9". 

While hull profiles differ somewhat between surfski manufacturers and even sometimes within their model lines, generally I think they are fairly similar in design -- this is why we like to race with them (it's sort of like NASCAR).  What differs more than hull profile are beam and length dimensions, as well as the amount of volume and how the designer distributes it.  These characteristics, combined with your weight/volume ratio (including paddler + gear) contribute greatly to your overall speed/stability performance profile.  For a visual example check out this great chart developed by Wes Echols of SurfskiRacing.com.  

Paddling such narrow boats with low primary stability I have learned over the years that remaining upright in any boat is a function of essentially doing exactly that -- remaining upright.  By maintaining proper form when you paddle -- no slouching or leaning, placing the blade properly in the water, rotating correctly through your stroke, etc --  you greatly improve your ability to keep dry.  I've also learned that even the narrowest boats can be extremely stable when you are moving with good form -- it's when you lose focus or slow down/stop and break that form that you fall in :)  I'm fairly certain this is an angular momentum thing, similar to how bicycles work -- maybe the physics people in the group can comment on that.

Speaking of keeping dry -- I agree with what several people have already pointed out in the thread, and that is the importance of NOT being worried about getting wet!  If you accept that getting wet is part of the fun of kayaking, then when it happens it's not an emergency in your mind, it's just part of the experience.  Whether you are inside of the boat -- as with a traditional sea kayak -- and need to become comfortable rolling and exiting/entering, or you are on top of the boat -- as with a SUP, surfski, or outrigger canoe -- and need to become comfortable remounting, this is a skill that you absolutely MUST learn, practice, and perform on a regular basis to develop expertise.  We ALL fall into the water -- as with skiing it's all about converting that fall into a nice recovery.  :)

(edit: ...a little more)

I'd also like to add that one of the biggest contributors to stability is how well you fit in the boat.  Maintaining a solid connection with the hull is extremely important both for power transfer and being able to swivel the boat around its longitudinal axis when needed.  It's a bit like riding a mechanical bull -- the people who do very well with stability have a good connection with the boat and have learned to relax their hips.  If you are able to shift around in the cockpit enough to cause the boat to tip -- so more than an inch or so side to side -- you probably need to consider adding some foam at your hips to tighten things up.

Matt

Edited by mattdrayer
Posted
16 hours ago, BigBird said:

Perhaps it's just the irrational fear of going overboard and not being able to get back in the boat?  I do agree that if I could learn how to roll, I would probably be more open to getting back into an Explorer :)

I would say, from personal experience, that fears about tipping over and not getting back up are NOT irrational!  However, while I will agree that learning to roll is an incredibly valuable skill, I place just as much value on bracing to prevent needing a roll and re-entry for when a roll fails.  I just feel that, too often, the idea of learning how to roll is seen as an be-all-end-all of skills with others being put down as lesser.

Posted

I agree with @rfolster that bracing is a key skill to cultivate -- however to continue on the angular momentum track I have found that it's often easier to simply take a couple of forward strokes to restore stability versus bracing -- it does require you to conquer your fear of tipping over! :)  Picture yourself riding a bicycle, and you hit a pothole.  Your feet come off the pedals and you begin to wobble.  You can either continue to slow down or even stop + put your foot down, reset yourself on the seat, and then start pedaling again, or you can put your feet back on the pedals while still moving/wobbling and in just a couple of turns of the crank restore your balance and continue on like nothing happened.

Posted
1 hour ago, rfolster said:

I would say, from personal experience, that fears about tipping over and not getting back up are NOT irrational!  However, while I will agree that learning to roll is an incredibly valuable skill, I place just as much value on bracing to prevent needing a roll and re-entry for when a roll fails.  I just feel that, too often, the idea of learning how to roll is seen as an be-all-end-all of skills with others being put down as lesser.

I think of the roll as a skills training accelerator. A decent roll helps you develop your other skills to a higher level because you wont swim as often. At least, that's how it worked for me. Rolling certainly isn't essential, but it does open a lot of doors.

1 hour ago, mattdrayer said:

I agree with @rfolster that bracing is a key skill to cultivate -- however to continue on the angular momentum track I have found that it's often easier to simply take a couple of forward strokes to restore stability versus bracing -- it does require you to conquer your fear of tipping over!

Yep, forward paddling is as good as a brace in many cases. Throttle is your friend.

Enjoying the forum Rob. Thanks for letting me jump in as a guest.

Brian Day
www.kitchi-gami.com

Posted
21 hours ago, BigBird said:

In other words, I'm not a couch potato so not sure why I have such horrible balance sitting on a balance beam (how the NDK felt)?  Perhaps it's just the irrational fear of going overboard and not being able to get back in the boat?  I do agree that if I could learn how to roll, I would probably be more open to getting back into an Explorer :)

Much good advice above.

I won’t repeat but will just add my OTC: In a safe environment, being absolutely sure that you know how to wet-exit or even better have an experienced kayaker on stand by, feel out the “point of no return”.

Because of your “irrational fear”, you probably stop your edging and leaning long before you reach the limits of secondary stability. The tipping point thus remains an unknown that will arrive suddenly and unexpectedly, undermining your confidence. 
 

Aggressively find that point - if you go over you wet exit and try again. You should try without spray skirt first, with spray skirt only with a competent paddler next to you.

Youtube “How to edge an lean a kayak” by Gordon Brown (paddling.com within Youtube). There is a whole series of edge and lean drills if you follow that lead.

The Inside low brace turn is extremely helpful in finding out how much you can lean a kayak into a turn. The outside low brace turn gives you support when finding how far you can edge. Both are fun and dynamic maneuvers that’ll go WAY beyond primary and also secondary stability and will boost your confidence. You can theoretically flood your cockpit with each maneuver if you don’t use a sprayskirt, they can be executed that aggressively. Both maneuvers should be properly demonstrated to you in-person, though. You can make a lot of significant mistakes.

A summer lake session with seasoned paddlers would be ideal.

 

Good luck and don’t buy a freighter!
 

Andy

Posted

I saw, "I'm 6'0" 188 lbs with a 32" inseam if that means something to someone on here." and am compelled to post. I am 6'0" 191 lbs with a 32" inseam.

I have been paddling for 18 years, the last 15 years in a Valley Nordkapp H2O. It is great in rough water and loves to go in a straight line. However, I decided to get a second, more versatile and comfortable (for my build) kayak.

Since a new composite boat is a significant investment, I considered virtually all of the highly regarded boats. I eventually ordered a Current Designs Prana with a "Heavy Water" layup. The normal fiberglass layup is 52 lbs, I expect mine is 5 lbs more. It is available in Kevlar at 48 lbs. The fit of the kayak, a major factor in my choice, is outstanding (again, for my build). I have not added any foam or made any other changes. The Prana has a lot of leg and foot room for the paddler, yet the cockpit is not huge. The knee position is higher, which I find very comfortable. I believe the slightly surf-ski-like knee position is a concern for some, but I have not found it to be a problem. It is a well engineered and sleek design. It does surf more than the Nordkapp, but that is desirable at times. It is far more stable than one would expect given its 21" beam. Due to COVID-19, I have been paddling it solo on Narragansett Bay this summer. Coming from a Nordkapp, I would not call the Prana tippy at all. However, I would not call an NDK Explorer tippy either.

The shorter (16 ft) Current Designs Sisu has a wider beam and I expect handles even better, but I was more interested in long distance efficiency.
 

Posted
8 hours ago, rveelenturf said:

I saw, "I'm 6'0" 188 lbs with a 32" inseam if that means something to someone on here." and am compelled to post. I am 6'0" 191 lbs with a 32" inseam.

I have been paddling for 18 years, the last 15 years in a Valley Nordkapp H2O. It is great in rough water and loves to go in a straight line. However, I decided to get a second, more versatile and comfortable (for my build) kayak.

Since a new composite boat is a significant investment, I considered virtually all of the highly regarded boats. I eventually ordered a Current Designs Prana with a "Heavy Water" layup. The normal fiberglass layup is 52 lbs, I expect mine is 5 lbs more. It is available in Kevlar at 48 lbs. The fit of the kayak, a major factor in my choice, is outstanding (again, for my build). I have not added any foam or made any other changes. The Prana has a lot of leg and foot room for the paddler, yet the cockpit is not huge. The knee position is higher, which I find very comfortable. I believe the slightly surf-ski-like knee position is a concern for some, but I have not found it to be a problem. It is a well engineered and sleek design. It does surf more than the Nordkapp, but that is desirable at times. It is far more stable than one would expect given its 21" beam. Due to COVID-19, I have been paddling it solo on Narragansett Bay this summer. Coming from a Nordkapp, I would not call the Prana tippy at all. However, I would not call an NDK Explorer tippy either.

The shorter (16 ft) Current Designs Sisu has a wider beam and I expect handles even better, but I was more interested in long distance efficiency.
 

I've been paddling a Sisu for the past six months. (Review of the boat here) About the same height and weight as you guys. Love the high knee position. It's a very fun boat. I'm looking forward to paddling a Prana one of these days.

Brian
www.kitchi-gami.com

Posted
On 7/25/2020 at 7:45 AM, Brian Day said:

 

I worked for P&H from 2009-2017 and ran US/Canada distribution for a few years, so I can answer Big Bird's questions on the Delphin. I think he'll find the Delphin 155 to be significantly more stable than the Explorer. Probably not as stable as the new, super size Scorpio, but still rock solid. Cetus HV is VERY stable. Virgo is new and something I haven't paddled. It's a little smaller and rounder than the Delphin. Probably not as stable.

On 7/25/2020 at 8:20 AM, Brian Day said:

I think you probably got spooked and locked up the boat with your legs. Pretty normal. When things get spicy and the boat starts jumping around it's natural to grab onto the thighbraces and try to keep yourself upright. This actually makes you less stable. Locks your upper and lower body together and makes it harder to stay in balance over the boat. If I were to guess I would say this is what happened. Certainly you aren't too heavy for the boat.

Thanks Brian for the excellent feedback!  I'm excited to hear that you think I will find the Delphin to be significantly more stable than the Explorer.  Is that because of the flat hull beneath the seat?   Also, can you explain the target audience for the Delphin say compared to the Scorpio?

You're absolutely spot-on regarding locking up the boat w my legs.  I just couldn't get myself to relax in the NDK.  Even in relatively modest boat wake, if I was parallel to the waves, I could easily tip that boat over.  In the Scorpio HV, paddling through the same parallel boat wake was just relaxing and even dare I say fun?

In that harrowing experience I mentioned off the Maine Coast that led me to sell the NDK, my wife was paddling along side in the same confused seas in the Lincoln and she was having a ball while I was struggling to stay upright.  It just took all the fun out of it for me.

I'm not trying to over think this and I really do appreciate everyone's comments.  I probably should just go buy the Scorpio HV and figure out a better system to get that beast on and off the SUV.  It's just that I really don't need a multi-day sea touring kayak like the Scorpio so I'm really hoping the Delphin is a baby Scorpio HV in terms of almost equal stability, but at 15.5' is ideal for day touring, and less weight to transport?

 

Posted (edited)

Before you buy; I will put in another vote for the NDK Romany Surf. Try one out, it’s an excellent stable high performance boat that you won’t grow out of. It’s a bit on the slow side, but not bad, much better than the Scorpio or the Delphin, and is extremely solid and maneuverable in rough water. At 16 feet it is not too big or heavy either.
 

Your wife probably had an easier time of it because she most likely is shorter than you and has a lower center of gravity, so any boat will feel more stable for her.

Keep at it, and in a few more trips you will be feeling far more solid regardless of the boat you buy.

Edited by BethS

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