Primary Stability: Hull Shape or Beam Width?

[BigBird]

9 hours ago, jonathanoltz said:

Bob welcome back!  Glad to see you are wanting to get back out again.  I just sent you over a email, take a look and let's touch base!

Thanks Jonathan!  I'll look for your email.

[BigBird]

20 hours ago, rveelenturf said:

I saw, "I'm 6'0" 188 lbs with a 32" inseam if that means something to someone on here." and am compelled to post. I am 6'0" 191 lbs with a 32" inseam.

I have been paddling for 18 years, the last 15 years in a Valley Nordkapp H2O. It is great in rough water and loves to go in a straight line. However, I decided to get a second, more versatile and comfortable (for my build) kayak.

Since a new composite boat is a significant investment, I considered virtually all of the highly regarded boats. I eventually ordered a Current Designs Prana with a "Heavy Water" layup. The normal fiberglass layup is 52 lbs, I expect mine is 5 lbs more. It is available in Kevlar at 48 lbs. The fit of the kayak, a major factor in my choice, is outstanding (again, for my build). I have not added any foam or made any other changes. The Prana has a lot of leg and foot room for the paddler, yet the cockpit is not huge. The knee position is higher, which I find very comfortable. I believe the slightly surf-ski-like knee position is a concern for some, but I have not found it to be a problem. It is a well engineered and sleek design. It does surf more than the Nordkapp, but that is desirable at times. It is far more stable than one would expect given its 21" beam. Due to COVID-19, I have been paddling it solo on Narragansett Bay this summer. Coming from a Nordkapp, I would not call the Prana tippy at all. However, I would not call an NDK Explorer tippy either.

The shorter (16 ft) Current Designs Sisu has a wider beam and I expect handles even better, but I was more interested in long distance efficiency.
 

Thank you very much for sharing your experience given our similar height, weight, etc.  I've never paddled a Nordkapp, but I've heard those are notoriously tippy so if you've paddled that boat for the last 15 years I'd say we are in very different categories in terms of skill level!  As I said, I'm at the level where an NDK explorer feels tippy to me.  I've had friends who are not kayakers "try" the NDK at Walden Pond and they said it was tippy.  Another friend took it out into Casco Bay and tipped it over within 10 minutes in calm seas.  So everyone who is an experienced kayaker says the NDK is a VERY stable boat, it just wasn't the case for me or friends of mine who are not experienced sea kayakers.

1 hour ago, BethS said:

Before you buy; I will put in another vote for the NDK Romany Surf. Try one out, it’s an excellent stable high performance boat that you won’t grow out of. It’s a bit on the slow side, but not bad, much better than the Scorpio or the Delphin, and is extremely solid and maneuverable in rough water. At 16 feet it is not too big or heavy either.
 

Your wife probably had an easier time of it because she most likely is shorter than you and has a lower center of gravity, so any boat will feel more stable for her.

Keep at it, and in a few more trips you will be feeling far more solid regardless of the boat you buy.

Thanks for the recommendation Beth.  I had written off NDK because of the Explorer, but it looks like the Romany Surf might be a good candidate.  Challenge is I'm looking to buy used and these don't seem to come up for sale very often.

[EEL]

Big Bird:

You said the Explorer would tip over when parallel to boat wake, but I assume it did not, the boat wake was indeed a modest non-breaking wave, and you were tense trying to keep the boat level/under control.  Based on this comment, my $.02 is stop thinking about buying a boat. The issue is unrelated to the stability or lack thereof in the Explorer and/or Chepeague in my opinion. Instead, invest is a few quality lessons, arrange a day's demo paddle at MICKO, get a decent paddler to accompany you, and take one of the suggested boats, Roany Surf seems a solid choice, around Peaks I. when conditions are modest.  Maybe take the Explorer then the Romany.  I'm not saying you won't end up with a new boat or that a good boat will not make paddling more fun and assist in dealing with more textured water.  Just the boat is not always the cure, and the Explorer is such a solid boat that I doubt it was the problem under the conditions you described.  

Ever ride your bike though a deep sandy patch where it squirms and slithers about?  I bet you learned not to fight the bike, but let it move about,, and ride it out by staying over it and and only dialing in some control when needed.  Essentially the same in a kayak when the water gets textured.

Ed Lawson

 

 

[Paul Sylvester]

My 2 cents:

What Ed says above is spot on. You need some time in the saddle with some coaching.  Don't over analyze it and buy a boat thinking that some particular kayak or "perfect"  hull shape is going to make you more comfortable in waves. Love my Explorer and it is my go to on big water play days.

 

  

[mhabich]

Ed and Paul are correct. A new boat with a new paddler will be unstable. As the boat spends more time in the water, the hull absorbs water and becomes more stable. If the hull is stressed by force on the knee braces, the hull will not be able to absorb enough water to become stable. 

It may instead be the case that it’s the paddler that’s absorbing something. 

[Brian Day]

12 hours ago, BigBird said:

Thanks Brian for the excellent feedback!  I'm excited to hear that you think I will find the Delphin to be significantly more stable than the Explorer.  Is that because of the flat hull beneath the seat?   Also, can you explain the target audience for the Delphin say compared to the Scorpio?

I'm not trying to over think this and I really do appreciate everyone's comments.  I probably should just go buy the Scorpio HV and figure out a better system to get that beast on and off the SUV.  It's just that I really don't need a multi-day sea touring kayak like the Scorpio so I'm really hoping the Delphin is a baby Scorpio HV in terms of almost equal stability, but at 15.5' is ideal for day touring, and less weight to transport?

Hi Bob,

The Delphin is so stable for a few reasons. First, it is flatish under the seat, and this is a big help. Next, the widest point of the hull is just behind the cockpit, which means you're effectively sitting in the widest part of the hull. I think the rocker in the boat helps as well, but can't say for sure.

The Delphin isn't a smaller Scorpio. It's much more maneuverable. Very playful, fun day paddling and weekend boat. About as fast an an NDK Romany.

You would probably be OK with the stability of a Scorpio MV. It, too is more stable than an Explorer.

My concern about going to the HV Scorpio is that it will be more difficult to edge than an MV at your weight. Also harder to roll. It's really a boat that starts for paddlers at about 200#.

12 hours ago, BigBird said:

You're absolutely spot-on regarding locking up the boat w my legs.  I just couldn't get myself to relax in the NDK.  Even in relatively modest boat wake, if I was parallel to the waves, I could easily tip that boat over.  In the Scorpio HV, paddling through the same parallel boat wake was just relaxing and even dare I say fun?

It's worth working on this. Coaching and practice can help you to relax in whatever boat you choose.

Brian

[Jim Snyder]

8 hours ago, mhabich said:

As the boat spends more time in the water, the hull absorbs water and becomes more stable. If the hull is stressed by force on the knee braces, the hull will not be able to absorb enough water to become stable.

????

 

9 hours ago, Paul Sylvester said:

Love my Explorer and it is my go to on big water play days.

I too wish to rise in defense of the Explorer. When I'm nearing the edge of my comfort level on the water there is no boat I would trade it for, Also it's possibly the easiest roll of any boat I've paddled, possibly excepting the WS Zephyr which I learned in but not owning them at the same time I can't be sure.

[BigBird]

13 hours ago, EEL said:

Big Bird:

You said the Explorer would tip over when parallel to boat wake, but I assume it did not, the boat wake was indeed a modest non-breaking wave, and you were tense trying to keep the boat level/under control.  Based on this comment, my $.02 is stop thinking about buying a boat. The issue is unrelated to the stability or lack thereof in the Explorer and/or Chepeague in my opinion. Instead, invest is a few quality lessons, arrange a day's demo paddle at MICKO, get a decent paddler to accompany you, and take one of the suggested boats, Roany Surf seems a solid choice, around Peaks I. when conditions are modest.  Maybe take the Explorer then the Romany.  I'm not saying you won't end up with a new boat or that a good boat will not make paddling more fun and assist in dealing with more textured water.  Just the boat is not always the cure, and the Explorer is such a solid boat that I doubt it was the problem under the conditions you described.  

Ever ride your bike though a deep sandy patch where it squirms and slithers about?  I bet you learned not to fight the bike, but let it move about,, and ride it out by staying over it and and only dialing in some control when needed.  Essentially the same in a kayak when the water gets textured.

Ed Lawson

 

 

Thank you Ed for your thoughtful feedback.  You are correct, I've never dumped the Explorer in boat wake and I've had tense moments trying to keep that from happening, especially on one trip in Plum Island Sound where I was riddled with huge motor yachts making their way from the Merrimac River out to the ocean in the same narrow channel that I thought would be a nice place to paddle lol  I've paddled on several nspn outings a couple of years ago and had instruction from Rob, Cathy, Bob L., Jonathan, and Kevin.  All were excellent teachers and taught me skills to relax my legs to not lock up the boat in tense moments.  I learned to edge the Explorer and was so hopeful that I could grow into that boat.  As I said earlier, the reality is I don't get out very often (<10x a year) and probably only paddled the NDK on a dozen day trips.  In the end, it just wasn't fun anymore.  But, that's more on me than on the boat.  I know the NDK Explorer is well lauded as one of the most stable expedition boats ever made.

2 hours ago, Brian Day said:

Hi Bob,

The Delphin is so stable for a few reasons. First, it is flatish under the seat, and this is a big help. Next, the widest point of the hull is just behind the cockpit, which means you're effectively sitting in the widest part of the hull. I think the rocker in the boat helps as well, but can't say for sure.

The Delphin isn't a smaller Scorpio. It's much more maneuverable. Very playful, fun day paddling and weekend boat. About as fast an an NDK Romany.

You would probably be OK with the stability of a Scorpio MV. It, too is more stable than an Explorer.

My concern about going to the HV Scorpio is that it will be more difficult to edge than an MV at your weight. Also harder to roll. It's really a boat that starts for paddlers at about 200#.

It's worth working on this. Coaching and practice can help you to relax in whatever boat you choose.

Brian

Thanks again Brian about your insights to the P&H boats.  It's very helpful.  In addition to day touring, I'd love to aspire to learn how to surf which is another reason I'm considering the Delphin.  I have plans to demo one later in the week.

[BigBird]

On 7/25/2020 at 8:20 AM, Brian Day said:

Hey Bob,

I think you probably got spooked and locked up the boat with your legs. Pretty normal. When things get spicy and the boat starts jumping around it's natural to grab onto the thighbraces and try to keep yourself upright. This actually makes you less stable. Locks your upper and lower body together and makes it harder to stay in balance over the boat. If I were to guess I would say this is what happened. Certainly you aren't too heavy for the boat.

To paraphrase William Nealy, relax, have a beer. Drop your legs away from the thighbraces in those kind of situations and you'll see a dramatic improvement in balance.

There's a head game at work. I've been spooked plenty of times on the sea. Especially when I was just starting out. Makes you feel really tippy. Here's a story about one of those times:

https://kitchi-gami.com/2018/06/04/pic-river-beatdown/

Definitely work on your roll. It opens up lots of options. Try a whitewater class, too. Cross training.

Brian Day
www.kitchi-gami.com

Brian, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your articles about stability and the one linked above.  Although I never went cartwheeling on a wave like you did in the Nordkapp (WOW!), I can relate exactly on how you felt spooked trying to break through the waves to get back to the safety of the cove.  The fear was real after I got caught in a storm in Casco Bay which motivated the sale of the boat after that trip.

I like the P&H boat designs (swede form).  I'm hoping the Delphin will be the boat to get me back out there.  I will heed all of the good advice given by you and others in this thread to get some more instruction, and be patient with myself to allow my skills to improve with more seat time.  Depending on the Covid situation, I also hope to join the pool rolling sessions over the Winter - I think that if I can learn to brace and roll, my enjoyment of sea kayaking will go up immeasurably.  

[Brian Day]

16 minutes ago, BigBird said:

Brian, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your articles about stability and the one linked above.  Although I never went cartwheeling on a wave like you did in the Nordkapp (WOW!), I can relate exactly on how you felt spooked trying to break through the waves to get back to the safety of the cove.  The fear was real after I got caught in a storm in Casco Bay which motivated the sale of the boat after that trip.

I like the P&H boat designs (swede form).  I'm hoping the Delphin will be the boat to get me back out there.  I will heed all of the good advice given by you and others in this thread to get some more instruction, and be patient with myself to allow my skills to improve with more seat time.  Depending on the Covid situation, I also hope to join the pool rolling sessions over the Winter - I think that if I can learn to brace and roll, my enjoyment of sea kayaking will go up immeasurably.  

Thanks Bob. Glad you liked the story. I sure was spooked for a while after that one. Had a couple bad swims out of a Sea Lion when I was just starting out that messed me up for a while too.

I think you're on the right track with training and instruction. Get in the pool. Work on your roll and braces. That's what I did and it worked wonders for my confidence even though it took me a while to develop a consistent roll.

Lots of good advice in this thread. Have fun!

Brian

[rveelenturf]

On 7/26/2020 at 5:55 AM, Brian Day said:

I've been paddling a Sisu for the past six months. (Review of the boat here) About the same height and weight as you guys. Love the high knee position. It's a very fun boat. I'm looking forward to paddling a Prana one of these days.

Brian
www.kitchi-gami.com

Very well written and thorough review of the Sisu. Interestingly, although the Prana seat is also relatively flat looking, I have found it to be perfectly comfortable without making any adjustments. It also allows for dropping your legs to the hull and keeping them there for extended periods without any pinching. I suppose it is an individual thing.

[Brian Day]

12 hours ago, rveelenturf said:

Very well written and thorough review of the Sisu. Interestingly, although the Prana seat is also relatively flat looking, I have found it to be perfectly comfortable without making any adjustments. It also allows for dropping your legs to the hull and keeping them there for extended periods without any pinching. I suppose it is an individual thing.

Yep. Think you are right. Seats, like so many things, are subjective.

Brian

[BigBird]

Hello!  Just wanted to provide an update to this thread.  I took your advice and got in the pool over the Winter and successfully learned to roll (thanks to Kevin B!).  I've added a P&H Scorpio and Delphin for expedition / ocean play boats.  I love the rock solid primary stability, the connect seat, the deck pod, and the carefree nature of Corelite X.  I also had a chance to try Kevin's NDK Romany in the pool and it felt very stable and rolled very easily.  If I didn't sell my Explorer, I'm sure it would be a different experience this time around.  Still lots to learn as I navigate from a beginner to more advanced paddler.  Look forward to paddling with some of you this year!

Built this shed during Covid - max my town allows is 18', but they both fit (Scorpio just barely!):

[josko]

A bicycle has no primary stability yet works for most people. 

[leong]

On 5/21/2021 at 6:12 AM, josko said:

A bicycle has no primary stability yet works for most people. 

Same with a normal rocking chair (with curved runners) that works for everyone with no learning time required. Of course if it has short flat runners it has good primary stability but no secondary stability. Also, a keel on a sailboat provides no initial (primary) righting force but has increasing secondary righting force as the boat heels.

Edited June 4, 2021 by leong