Most useful rescue techniques

[Gcosloy]

While the sweep roll remains the quickest method of personal re-entry and has the further advantage of unnecessary pumping or bailing it is still difficult to learn and even afterwards subject to losing it without frequent practice. This came home to me recently when attempting to roll a new boat for me. I failed three times and needed to wet-exit. This leads me to the suggestion that a re-enter and roll with paddle float is a great, easy to learn, and usually successful back up strategy. You're in the water a little longer and you will need to pump afterwards but the learning curve is much less steep than the sweep roll. Let me conclude by adding that the T rescue, as both the rescuer and swimmer, should be in everyone's bag especially if you paddle with others and don't forget to learn the contact tow with or without a short tow line. Too many T rescues are attempted by the inexperienced in rough and breaking water when a simple contact tow moves the swimmer with boat to a safer position before attempting the rescue.

[ThomasL]

I have no experience rolling either of my sea boats, but the paddle float re entry has served me well when I capsized alone several miles off shore.

Tom

[Gcosloy]

I have no experience rolling either of my sea boats, but the paddle float re entry has served me well when I capsized alone several miles off shore.

Tom

Tom,

There is a difference between a paddle float rescue and the re-enter and roll with paddle float support that I recommended. A problem with the former is that you need to be downwind not to get blown over while attempting the paddle float rescue. Also in rough water with big waves your center of gravity is quite high and can easily result in failure. Neither of these affect the re-enter and roll which has a similar profile to just rolling up save you still need to pump out.

[ThomasL]

Got it. Will give it a try next time out.

Tks, Tom

[Brian Nystrom]

While the sweep roll ... it is still difficult to learn and even afterwards subject to losing it without frequent practice.

It really pains me to see statements like this, as it's simply not true. Yes, some people do struggle with learning to roll and portraying rolling as some difficult, arcane skill just makes it more likely that one will fail at it. If you believe it's hard, it will be hard and building it up to be some "big deal" just makes it worse. Rolling is just another paddle skill, like bracing, ruddering and sculling. It's not a big deal and it requires no more practice than these other skills do. When taught as part of a logical skills progression (low brace, high brace, deep high brace, roll), it can be easy to learn.

If you are struggling with rolling, I feel for you, but please don't project that onto other paddlers by perpetuating the myth that rolling is difficult.

As for rescues, I agree with your assessment.

[Gcosloy]

It really pains me to see statements like this, as it's simply not true. Yes, some people do struggle with learning to roll and portraying rolling as some difficult, arcane skill just makes it more likely that one will fail at it. If you believe it's hard, it will be hard and building it up to be some "big deal" just makes it worse. Rolling is just another paddle skill, like bracing, ruddering and sculling. It's not a big deal and it requires no more practice than these other skills do. When taught as part of a logical skills progression (low brace, high brace, deep high brace, roll), it can be easy to learn.

If you are struggling with rolling, I feel for you, but please don't project that onto other paddlers by perpetuating the myth that rolling is difficult.

As for rescues, I agree with your assessment.

Point taken Brian-I should have made it clear that I was talking about my own experience.

[brambor]

Rolling is fun

[rfolster]

Rolling is just another paddle skill, like bracing, ruddering and sculling. It's not a big deal and it requires no more practice than these other skills do.

Brian, I applaud your positive thinking, but respectfully disagree completely. Rolling IS a difficult aspect of our sport, which is why many of us spend all summer practicing once a week at lake sessions and then over the winter at pool sessions. Please consider that you can practice bracing, ruddering and sculling all day long with little effort. Rolling requires an extensive amount of energy and time, especially if you do not successfully complete the roll and need to wet-exit and perform a self or assisted re-entry. Therefore, this skill is not practiced as much as other paddling skills. While many newbies (myself included only learning within the past year) have an overwhelming fear and awe of the roll, no one here is projecting any myths, only the truth that rolling is a skill that has more nuances to that one action than any other technique in kayaking. There are times when even the most skilled paddlers can't pull it all together, which is when a paddle-float re-entry roll would be extremely helpful.

I, however, will agree with you that if you believe something will be hard, it will be. Some of us have started taking on the notion that we do not have a "bad side" when rolling. We don't believe that one side should be good and the other bad, you shoud just be able to roll to whatever side you need to roll. It falls within your line of thinking that if you think you have a bad side, you will have a bad side.

Gene, I think that you have made a great point that this technique should be brought into more people's bag of tricks. I have seen plenty of practices where other forms of entry are used, including the re-entry and roll without the float. I will pass this along and let people decide for themselves.

[rick stoehrer]

i agree that making something a bugaboo does you no good.

and i agree that practicing the developing roll (and the subsequent wet exits, etc.,) can really sap your energy and that's why 2 folks practicing rolling is less tiring...one can support the other and literally give them a hand if/when the roll fails - this way you don't have to come out of the boat, empty it out, get back in, repeat. not always possible as you may want to practice on your own but that can definitely be more tiring. one of the things some may find useful for sculling, rolling and for the R&R is extending the paddle. it gives you a much longer lever (so if you have less nuance...well, you've got more power), it gives you a feel for the blade angle and i think you're more likely to find success with it as a beginning roller. once you've got that down and then can progress to rolling practice alone (so you don't have to schedule with that second person if you just want to get on the lake or whatever for an hour or so alone) you can try bringing the paddle back into a normal hold and if/when you don't have success with that grip, can simply extend the paddle and roll up. saves you expending the energy of coming out, pumping out, etc.

the paddle float i find to be a poor device other than for re-entry and roll or for a camp pillow or added emergency flotation, or, or, or....but as that whole paddle float rescue thing goes? nonsense. i don't like that its a core curriculum bullet point and hope that someday the aca comes to it's senses on that one. much better off teaching to what it's useful for and emphasizing the safety in at least 2 people paddling as long as they're familiar with rescues....opinions will vary.

[EEL]

Rolling requires an extensive amount of energy and time, especially if you do not successfully complete the roll and need to wet-exit and perform a self or assisted re-entry. Therefore, this skill is not practiced as much as other paddling skills. ......... only the truth that rolling is a skill that has more nuances to that one action than any other technique in kayaking.

Rob:

Rolling does not require extensive amounts of energy. If fact one of the tests of good technique is whether or not very little effort is involved, especially with the arms. That said, I agree if you are trying to learn to roll and/or practice rolling when either you cannot do a "bow recovery" or in a setting where nobody is there with the ability to give you a bow to recover with, then it can be an exhausting endeavor you do not want to do often. Been thre, done that. One solution is don't practice without available help to stay in your boat even if you fail until you are reasonably good at rolling. That way you can practice more and practice time is very important. Well, practice time doing things right is important, practice time doing things wrong unless with a good coach giving hints only reinforces bad technique.

Just to be a contrarian, I believe the single most difficult paddling skill is the forward stroke. Seriously. Rolling is simple in comparison. Even with bad technique anyone's forward stroke will still move the boat forward while the impact of bad rolling technique is a little more dramatic.

Ed Lawson

[djlewis]

It really pains me to see statements like this, as it's simply not true. Yes, some people do struggle with learning to roll and portraying rolling as some difficult, arcane skill just makes it more likely that one will fail at it. If you believe it's hard, it will be hard and building it up to be some "big deal" just makes it worse. Rolling is just another paddle skill, like bracing, ruddering and sculling. It's not a big deal and it requires no more practice than these other skills do. When taught as part of a logical skills progression (low brace, high brace, deep high brace, roll), it can be easy to learn.

If you are struggling with rolling, I feel for you, but please don't project that onto other paddlers by perpetuating the myth that rolling is difficult.

Brian, you really ought to tell folks here -- most of whom don't know you and have never seen you paddle -- that you use a Greenland paddle. It really is important context.

Now if you wanna argue that the standard layback, extended-paddle greenland roll is no easier than the standard spoon paddle sweep or c-to-c rolls, then I think you will be on shaky ground. If, however, you compare the greenland roll to the pawlata or to a simulated greenland roll with a spoon paddle, you may have something. IMHO those rolls are almost as easy as the greenland roll, but not altogether. It's unfortunate that, perhaps because of the whitewater heritage of spoon paddle rolling, those techniques are not taught as much as they might be.

BTW, how is your spoon paddle roll these days? When did you last try one? When did you last have a spoon paddle in your hands while in a kayak?

--David

[Lallen]

Rolling is not so difficult once you learn how, but it IS one of the most challenging things for many people to learn. Let's face it-it's counterintuitive. As human beings, we are not meant to breathe water. Therefore, when finding oneself upside down with a neoprene sprayskirt on, most people want to lift their head so they can breathe. Which is the exact opposite of what one needs to do for a successful roll. It also requires finesse to learn how to roll effortlessly without "powering" through it. For some, that comes more naturally than others, and good instruction can certainly be immensely helpful. That said, two or three hours practicing with Cheri Perry and Turner Wilson, even with a solid roll under one's belt, can leave one (at least, me) rather spent!

And I have witnessed even the finest coaches going for an unplanned swim. To quote a whitewater phrase, "we are all in-between swims.". So best to have and practice a variety of rescue techniques.

I do agree the forward stroke is one of the hardest to master as well. For better and worse, it's easy to get in a boat, pick up a paddle, and go. But to do it skillfully and efficiently? It takes time, patience, and practice to develop good technique. And there are so many subtleties to keep working on!

[bob budd]

I won't get into whether I think learning to roll is difficult or easy, nor that a greenland paddle, extended paddle, etc. helps. Instead I would suggest that assistance from "extras" like a paddle float extend time in the water and are best avoided. If you are paddling alone then its up to you what you do to keep safe but when you are paddling with others assisted rescues are going to be the best methods.

[leong]

Aside from what’s been said, I believe rolling difficulty is also related to boat type. Also wing paddles make it harder to roll (I don't use a flat Euro paddle or Greenland paddle). I find it easy to roll an Explorer and a lot harder to roll my Epic 18X (at least for a combat roll). With the Epic, my knees are usually in the center racing position and there’s nothing touching my knees or thighs. From this position, if I capsize I need to quickly spread my legs apart to grip under the coaming. It’s easier said than done. In practice, if I start with my legs spread apart, the roll is pretty easy, but still not nearly as easy as any typical British style boat. The wing paddle also adds to the difficulty. My QCC700X is not as easy to roll as an Explorer, but it’s a lot easier to roll than my Epic.

[Lallen]

IF you have perfect technique, one could probably roll a tugboat... That said, certain boats are definitely more forgiving than others. And how many of us have perfect technique 100% of the time???

[Phil Allen]

I always say that rolling isn't hard, learning to roll is hard. Lorrie and Leon covered why. Trying different teachers/styles is one way to make it some what easier.

Best

Phil

[Pintail]

Someone tell me what a "spoon" paddle is, please? I have no idea what the learned gentleman (above) is talking about (some modification of a "wing" paddle, perhaps? David: enlighten me?)

[Gcosloy]

Someone tell me what a "spoon" paddle is, please? I have no idea what the learned gentleman (above) is talking about (some modification of a "wing" paddle, perhaps? David: enlighten me?)

"Spoon" simply refers to the blade shape of a euro paddle. Years ago at Walden practicing rolling with one it was referred to as that "sugar scoop" by a member of the Greenland Pond Scum.

[djlewis]

IF you have perfect technique, one could probably roll a tugboat... That said, certain boats are definitely more forgiving than others. And how many of us have perfect technique 100% of the time???

Yeah, Dubside rolls a rec boat in one of his videos. As for rolling a tugboat, seems like a cue for this again

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYzpK3VqNXg

-- David

[Pintail]

Gene, thank you. I have <never> heard these terms (spoon or sugar scoop) used before -- but then I'm a comparative neophyte!

[Brian Nystrom]

Brian, you really ought to tell folks here -- most of whom don't know you and have never seen you paddle -- that you use a Greenland paddle. It really is important context.

While you're correct that I currently use Greenland paddles, I learned to roll using a Euro paddle. In fact, I still have that paddle, though it's been collecting dust for years.

Now if you wanna argue that the standard layback, extended-paddle greenland roll is no easier than the standard spoon paddle sweep or c-to-c rolls, then I think you will be on shaky ground.

No, I'm more interested in an apples-apples comparison. Also, the C-to-C is the last roll I would ever try to teach a beginner, regardless of paddle type. Forcing a beginner to start with a roll that requires precise timing is a recipe for failure. You have to walk before you can learn to run. Yes, thousands of paddlers have learned the C-to-C as their first roll, but I don't see the point in adding unnecessary difficulty to the learning process and risking discouragement caused by failure.

If, however, you compare the greenland roll to the pawlata or to a simulated greenland roll with a spoon paddle, you may have something. IMHO those rolls are almost as easy as the greenland roll, but not altogether.

That's somewhat hard for me to say, because I knew how to roll before I even tried a GP. However, I do feel that rolling with a GP is easier, provided that you're using appropriate technique. When swept or sculled, GPs provide tremendous lift, which makes them ideal for sweep rolls of various types. OTOH, they're definitely not best suited to some commonly-taught rolling techniques, like the C-to-C.

It's unfortunate that, perhaps because of the whitewater heritage of spoon paddle rolling, those techniques are not taught as much as they might be.

I absolutely agree. I would also argue that the other major whitewater-inspired carryover to sea kayaking - the feathered paddle - is something that needs to go the way of the Dodo. IMO, it's largely responsible for the entire range of "on-side, off-side" problems that beginners experience when bracing, ruddering and rolling. However, that's a "Pandora's Box" for another thread.

BTW, how is your spoon paddle roll these days?

The world may never know...

When did you last try one? When did you last have a spoon paddle in your hands while in a kayak?

That's a good question. I believe the last time I actually used a Euro paddle was on a California vacation when we rented gear to paddle in Elkhorn Slough, in Monterey. I can't find the photos from that trip to get the date, but it may have been a decade ago.

However, as I said above, I learned to roll with a Euro paddle and it wasn't hard; it was just a part of a progression of skills. Over a period of a few weeks after I began paddling (and discovered NSPN skills sessions in Walden Pond) I learned to low brace, then high brace, then deep high brace where I went completely under before coming up, which is effectively the final part of a roll. At that point, all I needed to learn was the, setup and sweep. On the day that I decided that I was going to learn to roll, I worked with another paddler (who's name I never knew) for 30 minutes or so, until I started hitting rolls in shallow water without his assistance. I did my first solo roll within an hour of hitting the water that day. I don't mean this to sound like bragging, but rather to point out that when done methodically, learning to roll is not hard. It's just one skill building on another until it all comes together.

FWIW, I've met one person who actually learned to hand roll before he ever tried rolling with a paddle. In his case, it's what he was taught and he didn't know the difference; he just did what his instructor showed him. I think this anecdote really highlights the psychological aspect of learning to roll. This guy never had it instilled in him that hand rolling - or ANY rolling - is difficult, so he just did it. Similarly, when I was teaching Linda how to ride a mountain bike, she did some things that I would have hesitated to attempt, simply because she didn't know that she wasn't supposed to be able to do them. This is why I object to discussions of "good/bad" or "on/off sides", or statements about rolling being difficult. It poisons peoples' minds and breeds acceptance of failure. Worse yet, it also discourages many people from even making the attempt to learn. That's truly sad, as rolling is a gateway skill that really expands one's ability to perform on the water, which just makes paddling that much more fun.

[ThomasL]

I have only been in a somewhat difficult predicament once in over 40 years of ocean paddling, and that instance was personally initiated to determine the seaworthiness of a new boat. I see lots of pictures of folks all "geared up" comfortably floating parallel to the water's surface securely in their VERY flat rear decked "rolling" kayaks. My one self initiated "experience" found me bottom up and perpendicular to the surface instantaneously. I wonder if such maneuvers like the sweep recovery are usable to the vast majority of the paddling public. Some are not very comfortable under water, and do not have the time or motivation to get involved in our program. Is it all about luck for the uninitiated?

Tom

[jason]

I absolutely agree. I would also argue that the other major whitewater-inspired carryover to sea kayaking - the feathered paddle - is something that needs to go the way of the Dodo. IMO, it's largely responsible for the entire range of "on-side, off-side" problems that beginners experience when bracing, ruddering and rolling. However, that's a "Pandora's Box" for another thread.

You will be happy to know that the feather is starting to die, many of the good coaches are dropping people to 0 or 15deg feather. All of the current play boating moves depend on a 0 deg feather. You may see the feather remain in rec boating and racing (time vs wrists, time seems to win) but over time I expect that you will see less and less of it in WW and ocean kayaking.

FWIW, I've met one person who actually learned to hand roll before he ever tried rolling with a paddle. In his case, it's what he was taught and he didn't know the difference; he just did what his instructor showed him.

I know a number of people that learned a hand roll first and a few that have a hand roll but can't do a paddle roll. (These are people that I know from kayak Polo http://www.bostonkayakpolo.com/ http://nykayakpolo.org/ ).

As for the C to C it's really fallen out of favor with white water as it's much harder with the planing hull boats. It's not my first choice of a roll but I would say it's easier for some to grasp in that you have distinct movements in a easy order. On the other hand if you have a high volume boat you need to be a lot more flexible that you have to with a sweep roll.

-Jason

[ThomasL]

Many of You guys are far too sophisticated and yes, elitist for us common folk. The best training and expensive gear work well. Try to remember that, in spite of your best efforts and expenditures, you are still just all very vulnerable human beings. Sound like "sour grapes"? Perhaps, but my ignorance is accurately bliss when it comes to much of this forum.

[Brian Nystrom]

Many of You guys are far too sophisticated and yes, elitist for us common folk. The best training and expensive gear work well. Try to remember that, in spite of your best efforts and expenditures, you are still just all very vulnerable human beings. Sound like "sour grapes"? Perhaps, but my ignorance is accurately bliss when it comes to much of this forum.

Wow, where did this come from? We were having a very respectful and - I hoped - illuminating discussion.

I have no idea what you mean by "sophisticated" and I absolutely reject your insinuation of elitism. We were discussing ways to learn and teach a basic skill and hopefully help others who may be interested in learning, or who may be struggling with learning. What is "sophisticated" or "elitist" about that?

Regarding equipment, I did all of my initial learning to paddle, brace, roll, etc. in a Walden passage, a 15' x 24" wide plastic boat with high fore and aft decks. I had a $75 fiberglass paddle, a spray skirt, a PFD and a wetsuit. In other words, my gear was about as run-of-the-mill as it gets.

In terms of instruction, I learned all of my basic skills from fellow NSPN members of the day, specifically Adam Bolonsky and Jed Luby. This cost me nothing more than the price of a club membership and the cost of gas to get to the skills sessions. It did require effort and practice, but the payoff was well worth it for me.

The club offers a wealth of knowledge and assistance if you're willing to take advantage of it, but that choice is up to you. I don't believe I know you, but I suggest that if you haven't made a commitment to learning paddling skills, you may not be aware of how much additional fun you're missing. OTOH, if you're happy with the status quo and you're having a good time, that's great (though your post seems to indicate a level of frustration). After all, having fun on the water is the bottom line, isn't it?