Most useful rescue techniques

[cathyfoley]

I strongly agree with Brian and Rick on rolling. Rolling is not difficult if it's taught in a logical progression with baby steps. Too many kayakers watch videos on YouTube and other Internet resources that just show bad technique. Then they go out and try to replicate that and totally fail. The best way to learn to roll is with an experienced kayaker who not only has a strong role but understands the dynamics of each part of the roll. Having the right instructor makes all the difference.

[cathyfoley]

By the way, I'm short, fat, and weak! If I can roll, anyone can.

[djlewis]

My rolling story in a nutshell -- rolled after 2 hours of group instruction in the first class (with Kevin Horner at CRCK) -- spent the next year progressively losing it -- Marjorie Woodwell was a doll, went with me to several pool sessions and I got it back -- spent the next year perfecting it on both sides in combat -- reached a peak at Tybee with Steve Maynard -- great for a couple of years, all but bombproof -- started paddling less and rolling even less, and getting old, stiff hips -- developed some hitches in the movement and timing -- roll is now pretty shaky on one side, ok on the other, but not great.

BTW, in that first year of losing it, someone put a Greenland stick in my hands and I executed several perfect rolls instantly with almost no instruction. But I handed it back -- this is cheating -- I need to learn to roll with a rrrreal paddle! I have never failed a gp roll or scull or brace since, but I still cling to my spoon (= "Euro", Sir Chris) paddle -- too much investment in stroke training with it and not enough desire and time to redo it all with a gp.

Having observed lots of folks -- and myself -- fail and succeed at rolling, I can say with come confidence that it is easy for some and hard for others -- how's that for profundity! But for most of those who have trouble, I really don't think it's a matter of talking themselves out of something inherently easy. Some people are just better at it for a variety of reasons, mostly to do with athleticism, movement and motor skill, body-mind coordination, etc. You do understand, Brian, that there is a very wide range among human beings on these and other body-mind skills -- just because it was easy for you does not mean it can be easy for everyone. So have a little compassion for those who have been working on it for a long time -- and maybe offer them some of your expert instruction!

[djlewis]

I will offer two bits of advice for anyone learning to roll and not just getting it the way Brian did.

#1 -- echoing Cathy -- do get some good professional or accomplished amateur instruction. Don't start taking a lot of random advice from friends; that could well confuse more than help you.

#2 -- if you have gotten your first roll and are working to make it better, smoother, more reliable but are either not making steady progress toward 100% and smooth, or even going backwards --stop practicing! You will just burn in bad habits. Go immediately to advice #1. (I speak from experience on this one -- my not-so-good side these days was actually my first rolling side. I did just what I am warning about here, and it pretty much permanently burned in a hitch that has now become even worse with lack of regular practice.)

[Brian Nystrom]

Having observed lots of folks -- and myself -- fail and succeed at rolling, I can say with come confidence that it is easy for some and hard for others -- how's that for profundity! But for most of those who have trouble, I really don't think it's a matter of talking themselves out of something inherently easy. Some people are just better at it for a variety of reasons, mostly to do with athleticism, movement and motor skill, body-mind coordination, etc. You do understand, Brian, that there is a very wide range among human beings on these and other body-mind skills -- just because it was easy for you does not mean it can be easy for everyone. So have a little compassion for those who have been working on it for a long time -- and maybe offer them some of your expert instruction!

Of course it's not going to work for everyone, just as not everyone will have a great forward stroke or any other skill. There are many things that I don't do particularly well and I consider myself a "passable" roller, no more. My point is that rolling is not some arcane skill only for "expert" paddlers; it's well within the grasp of most people who are willing to make the effort to learn. It doesn't require expensive equipment, professional instruction or any substantial degree of athleticism. It just requires dedication to learning a progression of skills, all of which are very useful on a regular basis, even if you never learn to roll. These can be learned at club events that cost virtually nothing.

[Gcosloy]

Attached is my opus on learning the roll. I submit it for those who have tried professional help and still cannot roll.

Rolling-latest.doc

[brambor]

I had an off/on roll until I spent 3 hours with Turner and Cheri. Best money ever spent.

[djlewis]

Of course it's not going to work for everyone, just as not everyone will have a great forward stroke or any other skill. There are many things that I don't do particularly well and I consider myself a "passable" roller, no more. My point is that rolling is not some arcane skill only for "expert" paddlers; it's well within the grasp of most people who are willing to make the effort to learn. It doesn't require expensive equipment, professional instruction or any substantial degree of athleticism. It just requires dedication to learning a progression of skills, all of which are very useful on a regular basis, even if you never learn to roll. These can be learned at club events that cost virtually nothing.

I absolutely agree that rolling is not an arcane skill, reserved for the very athletic. I figured that out back in 2003 or so when I had the basics down and pondered learning to roll -- all sorts of non-athletes were doing it; crck was offering classes to all comers; etc etc.. IOW, I think your proposition here has been accepted for quite some time, and it's certainly the common view today.

The part I was focusing on is that, despite that, rolling is still a "finicky" body-mind skill -- it can be tricky to learn; it can be lost and regained; some people who oughta be able to roll (by whatever intuition) never seem to be able to, and vice versa. As someone pointed out, one of the reasons is that it's counter-intuitive, so your mind is working against your body in many ways. That's very unlike the forward stroke -- essentially anybody can get in a boat and make it go forward with no instruction, and get half-efficient at it with 10 minutes of on-water guidance -- it's the other half of the efficiency curve that we spend the rest of our paddling lives pursuing, especially the upper 10-20%.

So, as it turns out, many folks get stuck at one stage or another learning for reasons that have nothing to do with attitude or moral fiber. And it does no good to keep telling them that rolling is easy, and any idiot can do it -- in fact, that probably makes them more anxious and, rolling being very much a mind skill as well as body, actually makes it harder for them to progress.

Another personal story along these lines. As my roll was deteriorating in the last couple of years, my good-side roll was ragged and I couldn't even get up on my not-so-good side with any certainty, I decided to get a tune-up. I chose Armand Mikune-Santos because I had admired his coaching skill on a number of occasions. So I plunked down the money at CRCK where he was working and we paddled out of the dock and down the Charles. Well, for the first 15 minutes all we did was paddle slowly and chat -- about life, interests, activities, then a bit about kayaking, and then we got around to rolling, that is, chatting about rolling. By the time we got to a spot where he pulled over and said "how about here" I was so relaxed that I ran off three perfect rolls on both sides. Armand looked at me with a quizzical smile and asked what I needed him for! I said -- whoa, I do have a problem. So I kept going with the both the offside and onside rolls, and sure enough they started to deteriorate, and he gave me several good observations and pointers. Then we paddled back, and despite having paid for an hour of instruction and only gotten maybe 20 minutes of actual work, I was quite satisfied. (Except that my roll still keeps going south anyway -- the original glitch that I burned in way back is very stubborn, and I just don't work on it enough these days.)

--David

[djlewis]

I had an off/on roll until I spent 3 hours with Turner and Cheri. Best money ever spent.

GP roll, I presume?

Trouble is, whom do you go to for euro paddle rolling? I recommend Armand Mikune-Santos -- I think he is still working out of CRCK these days. Also, Bob Foote has done wonders for a number of people rolling, though he is not around here very much. And oddly enough, when I asked him for help on deep high bracing, I did not find him terribly effective. But there are a number of stories out there about Foote fixing someone's roll in five minutes without even getting out of his boat!

--David

[brambor]

yes GP but I've seen them work with you using a euro paddle too. if you don't feather your paddle the roll is almost identical.

[brambor]

Correction: yes GP but I've seen them work using a ...

yes GP but I've seen them work with you using a euro paddle too. if you don't feather your paddle the roll is almost identical.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

[kate]

I'd like to add one more variable to this discussion. That is, the combo of boat and body sizes. Some boats are much more suited to rolling than others, and some boats are just too large for smaller paddlers to be able to roll well or easily or even at all. It's not uncommon for a beginner to pick out a large, "stable" boat to learn in, and then be flummoxed by how to roll the thing. Put that person in a properly sized and designed boat, and the roll comes much more easily.

You folks who are having such difficulty learning, take a look at your boat. Are you sitting up to your armpits in the cockpit? Is the stern deck low enough to lay back on? Is your boat massively wide (in the hopes of that seemingly-desirable stability)? Is it padded so that you have actual solid contact with the boat at hips and knees? This is not a matter of having $$$ boats and gear (both my boats were much-used and far out of style when I purchased them, and the paddle is a whittled 2x4). It's a matter of choosing a boat that fits.

Beyond that, I agree that good instruction is paramount. I learned gp rolls for free from the guys at Walden, and then went back again and again to practice and learn new rolls. Building the correct movements step by step, as Brian outlined (hi Brian! miss you and Linda!), and then practicing regularly (use it or lose it) will make it possible for most people to roll. And then paddling is SO much more fun!

(btw I learned a C-to-C roll with a 45-degree feathered euro-paddle as my first roll, and the only roll for about 12 years. Then began learning greenland rolls which at first seemed devilishly difficult to me.... until I realized that the body mechanics I'd originally learned were less than ideal. Soon, the greenland rolls were informing and improving the euro rolls. Have used a gp for 8 years now, and last rolled with a europaddle a year ago, no problem.)

Kate

[leong]

Some boats are much more suited to rolling than others,

Kate

Yes, and style of paddles, boat and thigh grips too. See my post #14.

[tyson]

GP roll, I presume?

Trouble is, whom do you go to for euro paddle rolling?

My personal experience is that the paddle type doesn't matter much. I tried the euro rolls using a euro paddle with some success and some failure. Then I bought Dubside's DVD on Greenland rolling (it was the first one I happened to find). I followed those techniques, still using a 60 degree feather on a euro paddle, and learned to roll reliably. It wasn't until much later that I had the chance to pick up a GP. Cheri and Turner's recent DVD specifically covers the minor differences between using GP and a euro paddle for Greenland rolls. I highly recommend this DVD to anyone wanting to learn a reliable roll, regardless of paddle type.

I now use a GP exclusively, but there is still a lot of "euro technique" in my forward stroke. One can even use a "wing paddle stroke" with a GP. For a GP it seems to be called a "reverse canted" stroke and works quite well at higher speeds. I don't use the GP because it is better for rolling. I use it because I find it to be a more efficient and versatile than a standard euro blade. The power in that blade when you scull or "fly" it is impressive. There are a few cases where a euro blade works better, but for my uses those cases are small compared to where the GP excels once you really learn to make them sing.

Leon, what style roll have you tried with the wing? I have limited experience with wings, but I found that the standard Greenland roll works extremely well with them. The wing provides tremendous support when it "flys" through the water during the sweep.

Cheers!

Ty

[NateHanson]

I won't restate the well-articulated positions already represented in this thread, but suffice to say I'm definitely in the not-voodoo-black-magic-ninja-art camp of rolling philosophy. If it's taught as a basic skill, by a great instructor, as a simple progression of exercises, then people will have an easier time with it. Unfortunately, too often it is portrayed as a highly complex master-level trick, that young fools should watch on youtube a few times and then go hack away at until they finally figure it out on their own.

I'll also add that as someone who paddles almost exclusively with a Euro paddle when I'm out doing stuff that tends to get me upside-down, that taking Greenland instruction, and working on many greenland rolls during winter pool sessions has paid great dividends for making me a more intuitive and flexible Euro roller. Learning forward finishing greenland rolls will make you a far better combat roller when you apply those skills to your usual Euro blade.

[prudenceb]

Ah, the "ease" of learning to roll... Several years ago, I signed up for rolling classes at CRCK. Knowing that it would be a challenge, I signed up for three three-hour pool classes in a row.

At end of first three hour class: I was almost in tears with frustration! So right-left, upside down-rightside up confused I hadn't a clue what they were trying to teach me or what I was doing. It made no sense while I was doing it, and it made no sense after when I tried to think about what I'd been trying to do. And it hadn't helped to see several athletic types master the roll in less than one session...

At end of second three hour class: I understood! While I hadn't yet rolled, at least I understood what was supposed to be happening. All that right-left confusion was a little bit settled.

At end of third three hour class: I'd rolled! Not reliably. Not over and over. Not on both sides, but I went over and came up 360 degrees later.

From there, I got a reliable roll...Then lost it.

Then spent almost a weekend getting coached with Cheri and Turner and Greg Stamer. Working with GP, my roll got broken down and built back up. Now, it mostly works - on both sides.

Except of course when I'm in a situation where I'd like it to work... when my brain can still betray me, and I am prone to rolling failure.

Always something to work on in this sport...

pru

[leong]

<p><p>

Leon, what style roll have you tried with the wing? I have limited experience with wings, but I found that the standard Greenland roll works extremely well with them. The wing provides tremendous support when it "flys" through the water during the sweep.

Cheers!

Ty

I use a sweep with the wing. Done right it grabs very well and there's more lift than needed; however, I think that the blade angle is much more sensitive than it is for a standard Euro paddle. Just a little off and the wing stalls on the horizontal sweep and dives.

[tyson]

...however, I think that the blade angle is much more sensitive than it is for a standard Euro paddle. Just a little off and the wing stalls on the horizontal sweep and dives.

Probably true!

[djlewis]

Ah, the "ease" of learning to roll... Several years ago, I signed up for rolling classes at CRCK. Knowing that it would be a challenge, I signed up for three three-hour pool classes in a row.

At end of first three hour class: I was almost in tears with frustration! So right-left, upside down-rightside up confused I hadn't a clue what they were trying to teach me or what I was doing. It made no sense while I was doing it, and it made no sense after when I tried to think about what I'd been trying to do. And it hadn't helped to see several athletic types master the roll in less than one session...

At end of second three hour class: I understood! While I hadn't yet rolled, at least I understood what was supposed to be happening. All that right-left confusion was a little bit settled.

At end of third three hour class: I'd rolled! Not reliably. Not over and over. Not on both sides, but I went over and came up 360 degrees later.

From there, I got a reliable roll...Then lost it.

Then spent almost a weekend getting coached with Cheri and Turner and Greg Stamer. Working with GP, my roll got broken down and built back up. Now, it mostly works - on both sides.

Except of course when I'm in a situation where I'd like it to work... when my brain can still betray me, and I am prone to rolling failure.

Always something to work on in this sport...

pru

I feel your pain, Pru -- sounds a lot like you are in the middle of my story. What finally got me to a reliable combat roll was tons of practice. In practice sessions I'd try a deep high brace (unlike Brian, I did not start with bracing, the way EJ recommends) or a scull, fail and presto -- an opportunity for a (sort of) combat roll. A few hundred (well, maybe one hundred) of those, and I had a much better roll, almost combat-ready -- in pools and flat water. The next step was being on a training with Steve Maynard at Tybee, in the Triangle on a day with good confused overhead stuff of all kinds from all directions. He said -- ok, everybody now just go roll in that for 30 minutes -- using every variant you can think of to capsize, voluntarily and "involuntarily" -- run off several back-and-forth -- etc etc. I was bushed afterward, but that did it!

[kate]

Ah, the "ease" of learning to roll... Several years ago, I signed up for rolling classes at CRCK. Knowing that it would be a challenge, I signed up for three three-hour pool classes in a row.

At end of first three hour class: I was almost in tears with frustration! So right-left, upside down-rightside up confused I hadn't a clue what they were trying to teach me or what I was doing. It made no sense while I was doing it, and it made no sense after when I tried to think about what I'd been trying to do. And it hadn't helped to see several athletic types master the roll in less than one session...

At end of second three hour class: I understood! While I hadn't yet rolled, at least I understood what was supposed to be happening. All that right-left confusion was a little bit settled.

At end of third three hour class: I'd rolled! Not reliably. Not over and over. Not on both sides, but I went over and came up 360 degrees later.

From there, I got a reliable roll...Then lost it.

Then spent almost a weekend getting coached with Cheri and Turner and Greg Stamer. Working with GP, my roll got broken down and built back up. Now, it mostly works - on both sides.

Except of course when I'm in a situation where I'd like it to work... when my brain can still betray me, and I am prone to rolling failure.

Always something to work on in this sport...

pru

Pru, take heart! This is the typical scenario, exactly as I've done and as I've known others to do, and you are right on track. It's not rolling failure, it's the path of learning. Next you'll start hammering the rolls when you need them - sometimes. Then more often. The more you practice, the sooner it will all become embedded and at the ready. Just keep doing what you're doing.

k

[cfolster]

I'd like to get back to the original topic, which was useful techniques in addition to the roll. I've been practicing a paddle float re-entry that I call the outrigger. I put the paddle float on the paddle and then insert the other blade under both sets of deck lines on the back of the boat. It makes an incredibly stable 'outrigger' that allows you to simply hop up and rescue yourself in the same manner you would if someone were doing a T rescue with you, or you can hop up and do a cowboy (I've also stood up comfortably in the boat with this method). Then once you're in the boat you have that side to lean on while you spray skirt and regroup. I like this method because it allows you to get your boat flipped over and somewhat emptied of water - certainly moreso than a re-entry and roll. You do need to turn and pull that paddle out and have to watch your stability while doing so, but I think the re-enter and roll has the same issues while pumping out and putting your spray skirt on and for a much longer period of time.

Granted, I've only practiced this on calm lake water, but I'm finding that miraculously, those skills that I'm learning on the lake actually do work on moving ocean water - funny, how that works ;-)

I'll let you know when I've had a chance to test it in conditions!

Cathy

[leong]

<p><p>

I'd like to get back to the original topic, which was useful techniques in addition to the roll. I've been practicing a paddle float re-entry that I call the outrigger. I put the paddle float on the paddle and then insert the other blade under both sets of deck lines on the back of the boat. It makes an incredibly stable 'outrigger' that allows you to simply hop up and rescue yourself in the same manner you would if someone were doing a T rescue with you, or you can hop up and do a cowboy (I've also stood up comfortably in the boat with this method). Then once you're in the boat you have that side to lean on while you spray skirt and regroup. I like this method because it allows you to get your boat flipped over and somewhat emptied of water - certainly moreso than a re-entry and roll. You do need to turn and pull that paddle out and have to watch your stability while doing so, but I think the re-enter and roll has the same issues while pumping out and putting your spray skirt on and for a much longer period of time.

Granted, I've only practiced this on calm lake water, but I'm finding that miraculously, those skills that I'm learning on the lake actually do work on moving ocean water - funny, how that works ;-)

I'll let you know when I've had a chance to test it in conditions!

Cathy

Hmm, I gave up on this potential rescue method for even slightly rough water (about 15 years ago). The reason was that I didn't get a stable platform like you say you do. The two back decklines didn't hold the paddle in a stable outrigger position; every time a wave hit, the paddle sheared around alongside the kayak like a pair of scissors closing and I capsized again. (Do your decklines hold the paddle tightly like two straps?) For it to work I had to place my leg(s) over the paddle to hold it, like in this video http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyoT0ylenvU of someone demonstrating it "according to the book". There's no way I could stand up once in the cockpit with this paddle float "outrigger". The kayak would just roll over as the paddle came along side the kayak. My vote goes to using the paddle float for a reentry and roll or as a pillow. CAM-able Leon

[cfolster]

<p><p>

Hmm, I gave up on this potential rescue method for even slightly rough water (about 15 years ago). The reason was that I didn't get a stable platform like you say you do. The two back decklines didn't hold the paddle in a stable outrigger position; every time a wave hit, the paddle sheared around alongside the kayak like a pair of scissors closing and I capsized again. (Do your decklines hold the paddle tightly like two straps?) For it to work I had to place my leg(s) over the paddle to hold it, like in this video http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyoT0ylenvU of someone demonstrating it "according to the book". There's no way I could stand up once in the cockpit with this paddle float "outrigger". The kayak would just roll over as the paddle came along side the kayak. My vote goes to using the paddle float for a reentry and roll or as a pillow. CAM-able Leon

I can say the paddle is quite secure under my decklines (and bungies - I wonder if that helps?), but again, not tested by waves. Sounds like I need to get out in some waves and give it a try!! This week on the lake however will be attempting the back deck roll . . . report to come on that too.

[PeterB]

well said, Nate

[Brian Nystrom]

I can say the paddle is quite secure under my decklines (and bungies - I wonder if that helps?), but again, not tested by waves. Sounds like I need to get out in some waves and give it a try!!

Once you get into "textured" water, I think you'll be much less impressed with the paddle float rescue. It's one of those techniques where the more likely your are to need it (the rougher the conditions), the less likely it is to work. In truly rough water, it's useless. However, the paddle float can still be used with a float-assisted re-enter and roll, which will work in rougher conditions. However, no self-rescue technique is as effective as not exiting the boat in the first place, which is where bracing and rolling skills come into play.