CAM Discussion #1: Radios

[nancysan]

And thanks to Rick and all others with helpful information, be it standard procedure or their own experience. I always appreciate those who take the time to share useful information. As readers it is important to separate standard practace from experience, discussion and opinion. So many ways to approach so many aspects of sea kayaking.

[prudenceb]

Methinks it’s not worth it to ever publish trip reports where there was any potential incident or lesson-learned. It’s just not worth the hassle of defending oneself against all of the self-appointed experts who think they know better than the paddler’s that actually did the trip.

Leon

CAM-able Leon,

Please don't stop posting trip reports regarding potential incidents and lessons learned! Some of us relatively newer paddlers get a lot out of hearing about these things. I say this not to divert the thread from Rob's desire to keep it focused on radio usage and protocols, but I just wanted to throw this in.

Pru

[rfolster]

As I am writing this post, others are responding and attempting to real this baby in. Thanks Rick and Ed for your ability to participate in the NSPN spirit.

Methinks it’s not worth it to ever publish trip reports where there was any potential incident or lesson-learned. It’s just not worth the hassle of defending oneself against all of the self-appointed experts who think they know better than the paddler’s that actually did the trip.

I was actually trying to prevent this progression, so I am going to jump in here in Leon's defence, whether he wants it or not. The situation that led to this discusstion is a very GOOD example of why we SHOULD carry and use radios. A situation came up between two very accomplished paddlers who needed to communicate over a distance beyond voice ability, and their radios (eventually) allowed them to communitcate and pull their group back together.

Knowing that I'm stirring the pot, I'd argue that if you need to use the radio to talk to other folks in your group that you might as well be paddling alone. Radios can be a great safety tool, but they can't replace common sense and good group behavior.

Gene with all due respect, if you can't even talk to folks because they can't control their boat, how good will they be if you need a rescue?

Actually Phil, you are just stirring the pot, which does not assist the conversation at hand, but only side tracks it. Since it is a rule of CAM that paddlers paddle together and make an EFFORT for stay within voice range, I am trying to concentrate on the idea of having the radios available as a safety device. I have never paddled with you, so I don't know how you interact with a goup, however I have seen many instances with those I have paddled with where this is rule is not strictly adhered to and separation occurs. This is the very reason that I have started these "CAM Discussions" so that we can work these details out and determine what the overall "group" concensus is.

I wanted to keep the conversation about on water communication in a separate thread, but so far it is not working. Therefore, let me steer the conversation this way. For those of you that store your radios, have you ever been in a situation when you needed them? What was it like to have to fish it out of the hatch and turn it on? Did it cause any issues with the delay as it did in Leon's case? I have heard several stories from people willing to share, and all of them seem to point to the benefits of having a radio on. Does ANYONE have a story of why it is a BAD idea to wear a radio?

I have already planned separate discussion topics for on-water communications, beach breifings, and other topics as they come up. As I said in the beginning, I would like to keep these conversations on topic if we can as separate issues will be discussed in separate threads.

[rfolster]

CAM-able Leon,

Please don't stop posting trip reports regarding potential incidents and lessons learned! Some of us relatively newer paddlers get a lot out of hearing about these things. I say this not to divert the thread from Rob's desire to keep it focused on radio usage and protocols, but I just wanted to throw this in.

Pru

Thanks to Pru an Nancy as well (I want to make sure you are included in the kudos since you squeaked your post in just before mine). She is exactly correct that "newer" paddlers need to hear not so much about what equipment we should carry, but WHY. But even more importantly, this series of postings are also targeted at the seasoned paddlers and NSPNers. I have only been with the group for a year, and yet I see constant struggles with the adaptation of CAM within the organization. I am attempting to use this series to let members discuss how well the different aspects of CAM are working and what areas are in need of improving.

The NSPN suggested equipment list includes VHF radios for trip levels 3 & 4. While most of the arguments here have been regarding inter-group communication, I am attempting to address the use of the radios as a safety device. Every trip has it's own set of parameters for any piece of equipment, whether it is for safety or not, and I am sure that there are situations where radios would not be required. I am merely attempting to ask the question of how radios fit into the CAM model, and if there is any reason not to monitor them while on the water.

I think the next CAM discussion is definitely going to be about on-water communication!

[cfolster]

CAM-able Leon,

Please don't stop posting trip reports regarding potential incidents and lessons learned! Some of us relatively newer paddlers get a lot out of hearing about these things. I say this not to divert the thread from Rob's desire to keep it focused on radio usage and protocols, but I just wanted to throw this in.

Pru

I second Prudence's imploration. It's clear neither of you were ever in trouble and it was actually a unique situation of 'non trouble' but radio needed. I know Robert was worried about singling you out with the mention of your incident and tried to explain that it was just the impetus to post the topic - much of his inspiration I know has come from past pasddles he's been on. I also know he's sorry you were indadvertently thrown under the bus (boat).

I, like Prudence, have learned a great deal and been given even more to consider and practice while I'm on the water. At the very least, others' experiences give me food for thought. That others may learn, I hope I have the courage to lay bare the foibles and shortcomings of myself and others (not implying prior posters have any ) as I post future trip reports.

Cathy

[Gcosloy]

Leon,

I think you and some of us are at a decided disadvantage here: Peter and Phil graduated from the "Thunderbird" school of paddling. You know the Thunderbirds, they travel at mach speeds barely a wing tip apart and roll in perfect unison. Just imagine the marine equivalent: Peter and Phil paddling side by side with barely a paddle's length separation in a 6' beam breaking sea with 20k gusts, all the time conversing quietly about proper "boat control". I'm impressed-when's the next show guys? Biff, unless your embarrassed by your lack of "boat control" and your demonstrable "shoddy paddling practice" by using a VHF radio inappropriately, keep on truckin!

[EEL]

Actually Phil, you are just stirring the pot, which does not assist the conversation at hand, but only side tracks it.

Consider the possibilty that Phil was addressing the issue of radio usage by indicating the reasons being given by others for why having a radio turned on, etc. were indicative of a failure to abide by some rather fundamental rules of group paddling and, therefore, the radios were used as a crutch which is undesireable and possibly dangerous in itself. For example, using a radio may enable you to ascertain that a distan person is in trouble; but does that enable you to get there and assist them in time to prevent bad things from happening? I agree these fundamental rules are often not followed on many group paddles, and I will have comments on that when the time comes. It might be enlightening to ask those who have earned a current BCU 4 and 5 Star Sea Award to what extent the use of a VHF radio was needed during the training and assessment. Those are group leadership awards and conducted is less than benign conditions so the answers just might be relevant.

For those of you that store your radios, have you ever been in a situation when you needed them?

No. I may well get caught some day when my judgment turns out in retrospect to be bad, but I do not unthinkingly store it in the day hatch, and I know I can get into my day hatch when on the water. As stated previously, I store or carry it depending upon a variety of factors.

Does ANYONE have a story of why it is a BAD idea to wear a radio?

To put my response in perspective, I came to seakayaking with a technical moiuntaineering background and one that began before there were cell phones and GPS untis. It never occurred to us then that anyone would come and save us. A ranger might check the trail login sheets every couple of weeks at best and it would take days for someone in the group to seek help. So we assumed we needed to be self reliant, knew things might go bad and we would be in dire straits, needed to exercise sound judgement, needed to rely upon skill not equipment, and believed we were safer climbing fast and with less effort by carrying minimal gear. That is how I approach issues of gear and safety or more properly described as risk assessment. From my perspective seakyaking as done by your typical middle aged weekend warrior is incredibly safe. So I find the concept that for the sake of safey it is important to have a VHF radio on and strapped to a PFD every minute of every paddle puzzling and a rationale based on the need to talk to one's paddling mates more puzzling.

So from my perspective, I think that the question presupposes the answer or perhaps the question provides the answer. Is it BAD? Well, not sure it could be bad and when it is appropraite to have it at the ready, it would definitely be bad. Are there negatives to always having it exposed on the PFD and on? I think so. As Rick said as I have seen, the more the radio is exposed to salt water, the more likely it is to develop problems. Especially if it is exposed often and in dynamic water. Why would I needlessly expose a peice of potentially life saving gear not designed to be contnuously exposed to dynamic salt water?

If I needed to use the radio for an actual emergency, I want the battery to be as charged as possible since the amount of current/charge required for transmmiting is considerable and you can run a battery down more quickly than you might think. If you are out for the typical short day paddle, not a big deal. If out for serveral days and perhaps you needed to make several securite call on a day or two, then it could be a big deal. Which brings us around to the beginning. This is not a binary issue with either yes or no being the correct answer and it should not be presented as such. My opinion is when and how you carry and use a VHF radio is a matter of personal judgment and preference. For some, it is different from what has become the SOP for many in NSPN, but that does not mean their reasons are suspect or wrong or caused by an irrational refusal to do what is "correct".

Ed Lawson

[Phil Allen]

OK Folks, I stirred up more with my few words then I intended. I've apologized to Leon off line. My comments about group management and common sense were intended to be general, not specific, but in re-reading the thread I can understand why some might have taken it personally.

I think Ed's comment above sums up my point nicely.

As to Rob's original questions, my answer is the following. If one feels that a piece of gear at hand makes them more safe, consider what might happen if that piece of gear was taken away. I keep my radio tethered in a readily accessible hatch. There it is not as exposed to the elements, other people pulling on it, etc. I paddle with folks I like to converse with, so no one is commonly out of voice range. I use it to talk/listen to the world outside my group; other groups, other boats, weather forecasts etc. I do take it out and wear it when I'm solo or when conditions might warrant immediate communication with the outside world.

best

Phil

[Suz]

Leon,

I think you and some of us are at a decided disadvantage here: Peter and Phil graduated from the "Thunderbird" school of paddling. You know the Thunderbirds, they travel at mach speeds barely a wing tip apart and roll in perfect unison. Just imagine the marine equivalent: Peter and Phil paddling side by side with barely a paddle's length separation in a 6' beam breaking sea with 20k gusts, all the time conversing quietly about proper "boat control". I'm impressed-when's the next show guys? Biff, unless your embarrassed by your lack of "boat control" and your demonstrable "shoddy paddling practice" by using a VHF radio inappropriately, keep on truckin!

WOW - Gene and Leon both need to resort to rudeness to make their points.

I too am in the camp of saving the radio for emergencies and using line of sight and staying within ability to communicate for group paddles. I utilize my radio to communicate with those outside of my group when needed and keep it readily accessible in a hatch. When readily accessible doesn't mean in the hatch (conditions greater than I can manage opening said hatch and accessing) then the radio is on my life jacket.

Note to those who are unable to communicate verbally with those they are paddling with, most likely you wouldn't be able to communicate via a radio if the conditions were such that you couldn't maintain your boat control within earshot of others. The reason is that most likely you couldn't take your hands off the paddle to push the buttons to communicate. Unless of course, you were already in the water and no longer were trying to utilize your paddle with both hands:) And then, those that couldn't come near you when they were in their boats, do you really think they are comfortable doing a rescue in conditions they couldn't maintain boat control?

[subaruguru]

I too wish to thank Leon (and Lisa) for reporting their experience...especially as the events tailed from a paddle I was part of.

I believe that a wider berth of acceptance, with a more positive spirit of discussion for the general good, etc., should be the goal of NSPN in its forums. Current and past quasi-confrontational statements and postures have served only to force defensiveness, and thus a reluctance to continue involvement. This has been extremely unfortunate. Some believe that simply posting depersonalized technical mantra can be helpful, but only if not in the perverted guise of a combination of personal statue-polishing and sideways, sub rosa attack. If some members feel attacked, it's not because they're paranoid.

Unfortunately that leads me to suggest that we reread our prose before posting, with a possible further reduction of participation. (But at least maybe it'd reduce typos and misspellings?)

It is hoped that we on the BoD can reorganize and broaden the scope of the forums so that there will be fewer complaints altogether. In the meantime let's all try to wear life like a loose coat, eh?

[Katherine]

And I am concerned that threads such as this one may be off-putting to newer members or potential new members.

Thank you Leon, for posting about your trip and thank you Robert for beginning a discussion that had the potential to be a learning opportunity without offending.

I agree with the the above suggestions to bring back good manners to our posting and would also add that we could ask more clarifying questions prior to making assumptions.

Let's continue to learn from one another while being kind to one another.

[Joyce Carpenter]

Katherine, as one of the newer members, I was remembering my defense of Ladies Paddles. This group (apparently rightly to some extent) has a reputation for being a bunch of know-it-alls. I want to learn from more experienced paddlers, but people who can't imagine situations outside of their usual experience are unlikely to make good teachers.

I've learned a great deal from this thread. I don't have a radio, don't know if I ever will, but I have lots more circumstances to think about when I consider one. Thanks to Rob and all the cases discussed for that!

Thanks to Ed for the overview of radio communications. One question, though. Is "over and out" a contradiction?

[JohnHuth]

Yes, "over and out" is a contradiction. It's like saying "I'm awaiting a response" and "I'm not awaiting a response".

I don't know about other's trips and experiences, but I was trying to think over the times a VHF was useful for me, or could have been useful.

1.) A group of four of us were paddling around Monomoy. I have a VHF, but I don't think anyone else did. Through an unfortunate situation, which I can't even really reproduce in my mind, we got separated into two groups of two. I got back to my car in reasonable order, but the other pair didn't. Quite a bit of time elapsed and I became quite worried. If the other pair had a VHF, it would've provided some peace of mind to me. They did eventually made it back OK.

2.) I came upon a stranded motor-boater. His engine had quit and he was drifting toward a channel. He didn't have a radio, so I called in for a tow for him, and hung around until it showed up. No big deal, but perhaps a problem averted.

3.) Two teenage boys were lost in the fog in an area where I was paddling. I was pretty comfortable in the area, so I turned out to sea and blew my whistle hoping to get their attention. I did find one of the boys, and radioed in that I'd found him. In the end, he just followed me in, so maybe the radio wasn't necessary. Later the fog lifted and the other boy was found, unharmed.

4.) I crossed over some open water and paddled up an estuary. While I was in the estuary, the wind really picked up. The reports on the radio were for 30 knot winds. I had thoughts about whether doing the crossing was sensible on return, but ultimately did it. In this case, at least I was mentally prepared for the conditions.

5.) One day in November, I paddled solo in somewhat choppy conditions. I didn't have a friend to file a trip plan with, so I gave one to the local harbormaster. I hailed him with my radio when I was almost done just to let him know things were OK.

None of these were emergencies, and would've turned out fine without the radio, but it gives some idea of the situations a person might encounter when it could be handy.

[EEL]

. One question, though. Is "over and out" a contradiction?

Correct. It should never be used just as "Roger" and Wilco" should never be used together.. "Over" means you have stopped talking and are awaiting a response from the other party. "Out" means you have stopped talking and do not expect a response and /or will stop listening. Sometimes people will use the word "Go" to indicate the other side should respond. A couple of other things. If you call someone a couple of times and you do not hear a reply, then it is good to identify yourself again say "Nothing heard" and "Out". This lets the person who may have replied know that you did not hear them and you are not expecting a reply. When making a securite call many will end the call by indicating you are listening on a given channel (usually 16) for "concerned traffic" or "related traffic". If you did not copy a tranmission, a brief "Say Again" is often used to ask for a repeat. Breveity and clarity are signs of good radio technique.

Ed Lawson

[gyork]

I don't know about other's trips and experiences, but I was trying to think over the times a VHF was useful for me, or could have been useful.

..........we got separated into two groups of two. I got back to my car in reasonable order, but the other pair didn't. Quite a bit of time elapsed and I became quite worried. If the other pair had a VHF, it would've provided some peace of mind to me. They did eventually made it back OK.

Thanks for sharing John. Groups do split up, not uncommonly, despite attempts (or not) to stay together. Perhaps if your group had decided to monitor channel X for the day, you would have regrouped-no worries. Perhaps not. I don't see a downside to having those with radios monitor an agreed-upon channel for their trip.

I recall a group paddle many years ago-a group of ten or so paddlers on Lake Umbagog. Most opted to paddle up the Rapid River as far as we could go. Two less-experienced paddlers preferred to head back to the campsite. Radio contact was maintained until they arrived safely back at the island.

[EEL]

To add another example of using radios to communicate within a group. I was on a paddle out to Seguin Island once with a large group with disparate abilities.. The sea was running pretty good and since we were going back with the tide it was bound to be bumpier. The group was split between a faster, scouting and a slower group. One person in the faster group kept a person in the slower group informed of conditions, etc. as they changed over time and location which may have made for better trip for all. As I recall we regrouped around Reid Park and paddled back to Five Islands as one group. The return trip involved following rollers of up to five feet with occasional breaking tops, but some folks were still carrying on conversations and telling jokes. So I guess it is an example for both camps so to speak.

Ed Lawson

[Gcosloy]

WOW - Gene and Leon both need to resort to rudeness to make their points.

Suz-I don't need to speak for Leon but as far as my attempt at a humorous post I think some of us need to lighten up sometimes and realize that as much as we'd like certainty and a uncontrovertable approach for each and every paddling incident-the proof is often in the paddling experience-not necessarily the answer de jure from those who consider themselves more enlightened in these matters. Outside of New York or even Jersey my humor and frequent use of irony/sarcasm is confused with rudeness. I'm decidedly not being rude to the two paddlers for whom I have enormous respect when on the water. I didn't introduce the words " shoddy paddling practice" to describe Leon's or my alternative suggestions to the current received wisdom. Unless I missed the irony-that language should be considered rude.

I too am in the camp of saving the radio for emergencies and using line of sight and staying within ability to communicate for group paddles. I utilize my radio to communicate with those outside of my group when needed and keep it readily accessible in a hatch. When readily accessible doesn't mean in the hatch (conditions greater than I can manage opening said hatch and accessing) then the radio is on my life jacket.

Note to those who are unable to communicate verbally with those they are paddling with, most likely you wouldn't be able to communicate via a radio if the conditions were such that you couldn't maintain your boat control within earshot of others. The reason is that most likely you couldn't take your hands off the paddle to push the buttons to communicate. Unless of course, you were already in the water and no longer were trying to utilize your paddle with both hands:) And then, those that couldn't come near you when they were in their boats, do you really think they are comfortable doing a rescue in conditions they couldn't maintain boat control?

Actually, I witnessed a marvelous rescue in exactly the conditions you describe. Which may bring up the best safety recommendation of all-if you anticipate dicy conditions, only paddle with folks you can count on. I do, unless I'm solo and then I tend to avoid the dicy.

[Joyce Carpenter]

John & Ed: Thanks for the contradiction confirmation and the cases. Lots to think about!

Gene:

Outside of New York or even Jersey my humor and frequent use of irony/sarcasm is confused with rudeness

As a Jersey girl, I understand it completely. It's the sort of humor I often use to belittle others.

[leong]

WOW - Gene and Leon both need to resort to rudeness to make their points.

I too am in the camp of saving the radio for emergencies and using line of sight and staying within ability to communicate for group paddles. I utilize my radio to communicate with those outside of my group when needed and keep it readily accessible in a hatch. When readily accessible doesn't mean in the hatch (conditions greater than I can manage opening said hatch and accessing) then the radio is on my life jacket.

Note to those who are unable to communicate verbally with those they are paddling with, most likely you wouldn't be able to communicate via a radio if the conditions were such that you couldn't maintain your boat control within earshot of others. The reason is that most likely you couldn't take your hands off the paddle to push the buttons to communicate. Unless of course, you were already in the water and no longer were trying to utilize your paddle with both hands:) And then, those that couldn't come near you when they were in their boats, do you really think they are comfortable doing a rescue in conditions they couldn't maintain boat control?

Dear Suz,

Oh, come on. I can’t speak for Gene but I don’t think I was very rude considering that it was implicitly implied that I had no common sense (later it was reported to me off-line that that wording was not intentional and has been resolved). Hmm, perhaps I should change my handle from CAM-able Leon to Rude-able Leon.

I’m still not sure whether I’ve made my my points, which are simple: It’s better to have a read-ably available VHF radio on your PFD than not to have one. Whether it’s turned on or not is situational dependent. It’s up to the individual and his/her personal risk analysis to decide whether a VHF is warranted or not. Apparently Rick S. agrees with me. The trip report that I posted described an actual non-serious example of using the VHF.

Speaking of group paddles, I’ve been on many NSPN social paddling trips. From my cockpit I don’t see much group cohesion going on. In fact, more often than not, I decide to paddle with the person far to the rear of a spread-apart group (ask anyone who’s seen me on a group paddle … Katherine comes to mind as one of the last examples). If the last paddler capsizes he/she may not be noticed or heard because of distance and other conversations and laughter going on. Seems to me that it’s the NSPN paddling trips that are lacking group cohesion, not my private racing paddling trips.

Respectfully,

Your friend Leon

[Gcosloy]

John & Ed: Thanks for the contradiction confirmation and the cases. Lots to think about!

Gene:

As a Jersey girl, I understand it completely. It's the sort of humor I often use to belittle others.

Aw no-you're making it worse-I never try and belittle anyone, especially folks I genuinely admire. But the proof is in the feelings of the targets-If they feel belittled or disrespected I apologize, and it was never my intention to invoke negative feelings in others-not even third party readers from Jersey! The observation that electronic posts are a very different medium than face to face communications is certainly palpable. Had we both been on the water and had a similar conversation about the proper use of VHF radios I doubt very much anyone's feelings would be hurt or that anyone would need to feel defensive. It's much worse than even email. I'm truly sorry but my defense is that I yam who I yam and also take with equinimity the barbs that are thrown my way when I recognize they are fired with the spirit of good cheer, fun and friendship and never, never emnity.

[leong]

Why would I needlessly expose peice of potentially life saving gear not designed to be contnuously exposed to dynamic salt water?

If I needed to use the radio for an actual emergency, I want the battery to be as charged as possible since the amount of current/charge required for transmmiting is considerable and you can run a battery down more quickly than you might think.

Ed Lawson

You'd expose a relatively inexpensive piece of potentially life saving gear not designed to be contnuously exposed to dynamic salt water so you could potentially save your own life, that's why! People pay lots of money to buy life insurance that pays someone else when they die. Wouldn't you rather pay a much smaller amount that potentially will save your own life. And buy the West Marine insurance policy (about $40). Pretty cheap insurance, ha?

Except in certain circumstances, like crossing a channel or tidal race or you've become separated from your partner, there is no reason to keep the radio on and run down the batteries.

[Katherine]

Hi Leon,

Yes, you Liz and Glenn kept me.company on the Solstice Paddle, which was very gentlemanly and ladylike of you all.

I think that group cohesion may be another topic that Robert may post..

[Lallen]

Group cohesion is another great topic of discussion. And Gene, I definitely agree with you about the electronic medium. It's so easy for tone and intent to be misinterpreted. As you say, face to face many conversations that have gone haywire on the board would likely have been very pleasant discussions without anyone feeling offended, defensive, or slighted.

[leong]

CAM-able Leon,

Please don't stop posting trip reports regarding potential incidents and lessons learned! Some of us relatively newer paddlers get a lot out of hearing about these things. I say this not to divert the thread from Rob's desire to keep it focused on radio usage and protocols, but I just wanted to throw this in.

Pru

Will do.

[leong]

I second Prudence's imploration. It's clear neither of you were ever in trouble and it was actually a unique situation of 'non trouble' but radio needed. I know Robert was worried about singling you out with the mention of your incident and tried to explain that it was just the impetus to post the topic - much of his inspiration I know has come from past pasddles he's been on. I also know he's sorry you were indadvertently thrown under the bus (boat).

I, like Prudence, have learned a great deal and been given even more to consider and practice while I'm on the water. At the very least, others' experiences give me food for thought. That others may learn, I hope I have the courage to lay bare the foibles and shortcomings of myself and others (not implying prior posters have any ) as I post future trip reports.

Cathy

Thanks, I'll continue posting.