Salem Sound Rescue

[djlewis]

Judging by the near miss I saw (and would have been collateral damage of) on 128 this afternoon due to a su/hom-icidal idiot, there are bigger fish to fry for aspiring vigilantes. Get back to paddling, folks.

[Rob Hazard]

It's worth mentioning here that the club still has plenty of NSPN brochures and "Paddle Smart" flyers for you to hand out. If you want any just get in touch with me and I'll get them to you. They don't save lives sitting in my barn!

[Pintail]

<... the coasties don't say boo, the f&g don't say boo. it's not their business until someone ends up in the drink...>

Rick, I <did> have a mild run-in with an Environmental cop a couple of years ago, early in the spring, when he pulled me off the water (Gloucester High School; he shouted at me to return to terra firma) and wrote himself a note with my name, address and telephone number when he saw me wearing no PFD. I pointed out that I had <plenty> of buoyancy in the tualiq I was wearing; but he was having none of it -- officious bugger!

So...they <do> sometimes take note...

[rick stoehrer]

<... the coasties don't say boo, the f&g don't say boo. it's not their business until someone ends up in the drink...>

Rick, I <did> have a mild run-in with an Environmental cop a couple of years ago, early in the spring, when he pulled me off the water (Gloucester High School; he shouted at me to return to terra firma) and wrote himself a note with my name, address and telephone number when he saw me wearing no PFD. I pointed out that I had <plenty> of buoyancy in the tualiq I was wearing; but he was having none of it -- officious bugger!

So...they <do> sometimes take note...

i was talking about jeans and t-shirts...but okay, they say boo if you don't have a pfd.

funny, when authorities ask me for a name and address while i'm on the water, i give them your information too...

[subaruguru]

I believe appropriate to add a little info snippet for new members that this thread, or one of similar ilk, is a Spring ritual at NSPN.

Ed Lawson

Touche!

You brought a smile to my mornin' joe.

[subaruguru]

Opinions as spring paddling begins?

Bob

I tend to not initiate conversations re clothing, but have less reserve when I see those without PFDs.

I've been known to say: "It may not be possible for me to rescue you in this cold water before you die from hypothermia if you're not wearing a PFD." That tends to steer the conversation abruptly, for better or worse.

I have even more fun when meeting tandem couples where only one is PFD'd: where she is adorned but not him..."How are you going to save HIM?" Innocuous enough.

But where HE is adorned: "Where's your friend's PFD?" is either followed by "in the boat", or more often "she doesn't have one, I can save her", I've retorted: "That's homicide! Isn't it nicer to just take her out to dinner and break up with her over a nice bottle of wine?"

[rylevine]

But where HE is adorned: "Where's your friend's PFD?" is either followed by "in the boat", or more often "she doesn't have one, I can save her", I've retorted: "That's homicide! Isn't it nicer to just take her out to dinner and break up with her over a nice bottle of wine?"

Ernie,

Excellent. As regards to pfd, I was coming into the harbor as one of those small pontoon motor boats was hauling out overloaded with teenagers. One of the kids was standing up (there may have been standing room only on the struggling boat), drinking from a can, and wobbling around as the boat hit the chop. He of course did not have a pfd, so I pointed to mine. With a big smile he reached down and fetched one from the deck to hold up; presumably to show me that they were satisfying regulations. Holding up the pfd destabilized him, and he almost went over at that point. Luckily he was able to grab on to something and hold on - and so off they went for further frolicking on some island in the sound. I decided it was (almost) hopeless.

Bob

[JohnHuth]

Without getting into the ethics argument, there's an interesting lesson on how long a person can last in the water. The story seems to suggest that the person was in 44 degree water for 10 minutes and would've been close to hypothermia. This sounds about right from my experiments in cold water (yes, I deliberately immersed myself in cold water). Also, the general tables you can find.

This works against the 50-50-50 rule: you have a fifty percent chance of survival after swimming 50 meters in 50 degree water. I've personally swam about a mile in 50 degree F water. I was cold, to be sure, but I wasn't seriously hypothermic, no shivering yet.

I'm not advocating going out in a T shirt and shorts in 44 degree F water, but the 50-50-50 rule is just not consistent with experience, and I wish instructors would drop it, because it can destroy their credibility, and not give good guidance on the conditions that bring on hypothermia.

[Brian Nystrom]

I'm not advocating going out in a T shirt and shorts in 44 degree F water, but the 50-50-50 rule is just not consistent with experience.

On the contrary, I would say it's VERY consistent with experience of AVERAGE paddlers who are not strong swimmers. It's also quite consistent with people who don't wear PFDs.

There is always variation within any population, so no rule of thumb can be 100% accurate, but the 50-50-50 rule makes a strong point that's easy for people to remember. If it sticks in their mind, it is more likely to make them think about their safety and their actions, which is really the point. It seems to me that 90% of the battle is just getting people to recognize and understand the dangers they face on cold water.

[rylevine]

This works against the 50-50-50 rule: you have a fifty percent chance of survival after swimming 50 meters in 50 degree water. I've personally swam about a mile in 50 degree F water. I was cold, to be sure, but I wasn't seriously hypothermic, no shivering yet.

50-50-50 is just a mnemonic that may err on the safe side for many swimmers. What is the problem with that if it keeps people close to shore on cold water?

Bob

[JohnHuth]

I guess my fundamental objection to the 50-50-50 rule is that it's so far away from reality that it distorts the lesson.

Most studies give a strong chance of survival after an immersion of up to 90 minutes in 50 degree water.

That's hardly 50 meters of swimming.

On the other hand, there's a big "cliff" of hypothermia lurking just below 50 degrees F. Go from 50 to 47 degrees

and you'll find a marked difference in survival time.

If you're taught an ironclad rule, find it's wrong, then it undermines the credibility of the instructor and invites the

notion "well, if they're wrong on that, what else are they wrong about..?"

Yes, erring on the side of safety I suppose is better, but wouldn't it be better to say: drysuits for temps below 55 degrees, wetsuits for

temps below 60 degrees?

Understanding the rationale sticks better than a simple mnemonic.

[tyson]

50-50-50 is just a mnemonic that may err on the safe side for many swimmers. What is the problem with that if it keeps people close to shore on cold water?

When a traffic light is adjusted to have a delayed green, it doesn't take long for people to figure that out and start stretching things when their light turns red. What's wrong with running the red light because we all know that no one will be coming the other way yet?

Speed limits are generally ridiculously low compared to the capabilities of a modern car in typical dry driving conditions. ...speed limits or routinely exceeded.

Declaring limits that demonstrably have large safety margins in them will result in people routinely violating/disregarding those limits.

That still leaves open the question of if 50-50-50 is an over stated limit, or John is just that amazing.

Cheers!

Ty

[Phil Allen]

The big issue with the average, moderately unprepared paddler isn't hypothermia, at least not in the first 10 minute; it's cold shock. A good post by Derrik Mayoleth on that just today

http://www.kayakquixotica.com/2011/05/06/hypothermia-sure-if-you-survive-that-long/

Phil

[JohnHuth]

Yes, I think cold shock can be a bigger problem. Part of it, too, is related to the temperature difference between the air and the water.

I've paddled on top of 38 degree water when the air temperature is 75, and it was a scary feeling, even though I had a drysuit on, because I knew that if I dunked, the transition would really knock the beejeezers (an industry term) out of me.

[rylevine]

Ty and John,

Not convinced. If it is a deception, which is arguable for a given swimmer, 50-50-50 is a minor one that is not really tested or challenged by the wider public - but may save a life if remembered.

By the way, John, take care on that cold water experimentation so as not to suffer the same fate as predecessor of yours in the biological effects of refrigeration!

See http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Bacon,+Sir+Francis

Sometime around 1623, Bacon, in ill health, was finally granted an audience with the king,

but he was not granted a pardon for his offenses. In London, on April 9, 1626, he died of bronchitis he contracted while conducting experiments on the effects of refrigeration on poultry.

Bob

[PeterB]

Sometime around 1623, Bacon, in ill health, was finally granted an audience with the king,

but he was not granted a pardon for his offenses. In London, on April 9, 1626, he died of bronchitis he contracted while conducting experiments on the effects of refrigeration on poultry.

Bob

We’ve had one president who died from the cold and one who died from the heat.

William Henry Harrison contracted pneumonia during his inauguration on a cold wet day (including the longest inauguration speech in US history), and died 31 days after taking office.

Zachary Taylor dedicated the Washington Monument during 4th of July Festivities on a very hot day ; to recover from the heat he consumed large quantities of cold milk and cherries, and died 5 days later of acute gastroenteritis.

So: be careful out there. Mind the elements. Don’t talk too much.

[EEL]

This works against the 50-50-50 rule: you have a fifty percent chance of survival after swimming 50 meters in 50 degree water.

I believe the 50-50-50 rule as stated by the USCG once upon a time was that a person wearing a PFD had a 50% better chance of living for 50 minutes in 50 degree water as opposed to a person without a PFD.

I have no idea what that means as a practical matter. I believe it was part of their efforts to get folks to wear PFDs.

All I know is when the water is in the 30's and 40's you really, really do not want to swim, and, conversely, it is not bad for the time it takes to roll. That said, you feel the effects for several minutes in little ways.

Ed Lawson

Whose first combat roll for the year was about a month ago.

[JohnHuth]

Ah!!! 50 minutes! Now, *that* I'll believe - at least it's closer to my experience. I thought it was swimming 50 meters, which I hope doesn't take 50 minutes.

What is it 50 minutes or 50 meters?

[djlewis]

Ah!!! 50 minutes! Now, *that* I'll believe - at least it's closer to my experience. I thought it was swimming 50 meters, which I hope doesn't take 50 minutes.

What is it 50 minutes or 50 meters?

NSPN has already been there, at least once -- http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=5799

Wikipedia also says what Joe says in that thread (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia)...

"The United States Coast Guard promotes using life vests as a method of protection against hypothermia through the 50/50/50 rule: If someone is in 50 °F (10 °C) water for 50 minutes, he/she has a 50 percent better chance of survival if wearing a life jacket."

But the citation is a cold, dead link.

--David

[BillyD]

Yikes.. like now I only have a 50/50 chance of getting the maxim right

Seriously though, I find this vernal ritual thing string enlightening....in many ways... as I did last year's

It only took one early spring chance snack break encounter on Children's island with a few of you to realize I should have more "stuff". On that day the way of "example" was all I needed....but the range of social responses from the pod as I shared a lunch snack with you all, from friendly lunchtime banter to pariah like avoidance, was a catalyst to my self assesment. My transformation to a smarter and safer paddler is all your fault. My risk is my own, but all of your postings help me see it with clarity

Thankyou NSPN

[subaruguru]

"Cotton kills"...oops:

http://cgi.ebay.com/You-can-build-COTTON-KAYAK-Plans-/190529754018?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5c7553a2

[JohnHuth]

These "the water's cold, should I warn paddlers?" thread is a rite of spring for NSPN, as I see it - a bit like getting out the lawnmower for the first time.

A similar "there are sharks in the water" thread heralds the approach of autumn, but, unfortunately we appear to have one shark who isn't with the program.

I agree with Peter that any advice should be 'friendly' in order for it to stick as a message. I rescued a couple who capsized in a rec kayak and towed them into shore - they'd left a sheltered harbor and entered Nantucket Sound, where the waves were choppy and the wind was up. The woman clearly didn't want to go back out, but the boyfriend saw it as a matter of pride. Rather than get into an argument, I said, "hey, I can throw that puppy on top of my van and drive you home in three minutes, it wouldn't be a problem at all." You should've seen the look on the woman's face when the boyfriend relented.

Regarding cold water swimming, you can acclimatize to cold water by gradually immersing yourself in progressively colder temperatures. I did this experiment myself, and found that over time, I went from tolerating about 40 minutes in 50 degree water to 45 degree water. It took about a month. I will say that there's a real "cliff" in the body's response somewhere in the 45-50 degree zone where the survival time drops very quickly with each lower degree of temperature. One or two times my core temp dropped and I realized I'd overdone it. Although I don't advise anyone to repeat this experiment, knowing how your own body reacts to hypothermia can be very helpful so you can recognize it in others. On classic response in an early stage victim is to deny it.

[rylevine]

Went out yesterday to Forest River Park determined to overcome an innate fear of cold water. Wearing dry suit with polyester long underwear on bottom and fleece on top underneath. Also wearing a neoprene hoodie and gloves. After a few rolls found that hoodie got soaked and ice cream headaches started, but that was the only concern. Other-side rolls were more painful as the setup for me takes longer. Spaced out the rolls to warm up in the sun. Decided on re-enter and roll and was shocked by cold to lower body as I fully immersed. First time, actually let go of the kayak - but luckily gusts had subsided so was able to swim to the boat. Third re-enter and roll was difficult, bad headache and overall general cold. Planned to try cowboy, but decided time to retreat for a snack in the sun on the beach. Ended the session with a little paddle around the harbor. I guess this is the take away, if you are going to immerse then dress for immersion. That can really be difficult on a warm day as you then overheat. Spring is heck.

By the way, was at the Kayak Centre demo day in Warwick RI last week, and found that the water was much warmer. Maybe it was a local effect of the beach there, and have no hard data, but definitely different than at Forest River yesterday.

Bob

[spuglisi]

Bob, Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree that spring is the toughest season to dress for. As far as water temps in RI...I used to vacation there in the summer and found the water temps to be 5 - 10 degrees warmer than beaches north of Cape Cod. I think that the shape of the coast tends to push the warm Gulf stream waters further offshore before they get up here.