Boston Harbor Rescue

[rylevine]

FYI: Yesterday Boston Harbor Rescue

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_...ayakers_pl.html

Bob

[Brian Nystrom]

FYI: Yesterday Boston Harbor Rescue

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_...ayakers_pl.html

Bob

<musing about pre-launch discussion on the beach>

"PFDs?"

"Check!"

"Dry suits?"

"Check!"

"Cell phone?"

"Check!"

"Rescue skills?"

"We didn't have time for that, remember?"

"It's a nice day, we'll be fine. Let's go."

I'm glad that this potentially deadly situation turned out OK, but it does highlight the fact that while proper gear can be a life saving backup, there's no substitute for skills and judgment.

Good thing they were within cell phone range...

[jdkilroy]

I don't think we know anything about what actually happened yet so....

Jon

[florriej]

FYI: Yesterday Boston Harbor Rescue

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_...ayakers_pl.html

Bob

Arm-chair critiques of rescue situations that assume people were ignorant or made mistakes are a way to believe that we could have done better, and that it could have been prevented. We don't like to face that sometimes you can have all the right judgment and skill, do everything right, and bad things will still happen to you.

Maybe these kayakers were ignorant and foolish, or maybe they were just like us and their environment was more powerful than they were for a moment. We can mostly go along believing we have control of things if we just know enough and practice enough, but remaining aware that it's not entirely true helps us make safe judgments.

Florrie

[Gcosloy]

Reliance on Cell phones can be deadly. Witness that NH paddler who lost his life this winter paddling back from the Shoals. Why won't serious paddlers invest in VHF marine radios which are waterproof and allow for so many more help options on the water than 911 calls. A broadcast to boaters in the area via Ch 72 or 9 could have brought a quick pick up and tow for these guys and they would not have to see their plight in the newspapers. And while I'm on the subject: How many NSPN paddlers are out there without them or worse, stuffed in a hatch or even clipped to their PFD and turned off? With three or more paddlers on the water in rough conditions sometimes the only way to communicate is via the VHF. If you turn yours off you are unconsciously sending a message that you're not available if anyone else needs help. We all don't paddle close enough to hear the spoken voice or sometimes not even close enough to see if another paddler is in distress. I realize this last is a no no but I've been out numerous times with experienced paddlers who break this rule!

[Phil Allen]

Reliance on Cell phones can be deadly. Witness that NH paddler who lost his life this winter paddling back from the Shoals. Why won't serious paddlers invest in VHF marine radios which are waterproof and allow for so many more help options on the water than 911 calls. A broadcast to boaters in the area via Ch 72 or 9 could have brought a quick pick up and tow for these guys and they would not have to see their plight in the newspapers. And while I'm on the subject: How many NSPN paddlers are out there without them or worse, stuffed in a hatch or even clipped to their PFD and turned off?

Good point Gene. But to be clear, if you're calling for help of any sort do it on 16 first.

Phil

[djlewis]

...We don't like to face that sometimes you can have all the right judgment and skill, do everything right, and bad things will still happen to you. ...

Certainly bad things can and do happen to well-prepared paddlers exercising good judgment. But the fact is that the vast majority of serious kayaking problems can be traced to one or more demonstrably bad calls, often compounded by skills and/or equipment not up to the situation (which is part of judgment). I'd hazard a guess that having -- and exercising the results of -- good training will decrease your chances of a significant incident by a manyfold factor, maybe as much as 100x or even more.

--David.

[EEL]

Reliance on Cell phones can be deadly.

I agree

How many NSPN paddlers are out there without them or worse, stuffed in a hatch or even clipped to their PFD and turned off?

I confess, I leave mine in the hatch a great deal of the time, and I am unrepentent about it.

We all don't paddle close enough to hear the spoken voice or sometimes not even close enough to see if another paddler is in distress. I realize this last is a no no but I've been out numerous times with experienced paddlers who break this rule!

If you are so distant that you cannot see whether another kayaker is in distress, consider what it would take in terms of time and effort to help them if you knew they were in distress.

To each his own, but I like talking with and watching my paddling companions while on a group trip. There are also commonly used hand signals for when voice communication is not feasible.

Being a contrarian, I must add that during a recent two day 4* assessment there were at least three distinct groups of paddlers wandering around off Popham in less than benign water most of a day. The groups had to connect up, plan further activities/routes, deal with a variety of rescue situations, change the composition of the groups, etc. As I recall the assessors did not have a radio at the ready and a radio was never used or needed by anyone. I do recall folks staying close, talking, using hand signals, and paying attention to others.

Experienced to me means someone who has done something for awhile. It says nothing about how well they do it or how knowledgeable or skilled they are although those qualities are often erroneous implied by the word.

To me relying upon a VHF radio clipped to a PFD for communication/safety in lieu of exercising some basic group paddling skills and judgment is just as misguided in some ways as relying upon a cell phone.

Ed Lawson

[jason]

A broadcast to boaters in the area via Ch 72 or 9 could have brought a quick pick up

Channel 16 is the channel that should be used in this case. Channel 9 might get someone, we normally use 72 as it's not normally a busy channel.

Channel 16 is use for:

"International Distress, Safety and Calling. Ships required to carry radio, USCG, and most coast stations maintain a listening watch on this channel."

-Jason

[hopefloats]

Arm-chair critiques of rescue situations that assume people were ignorant or made mistakes are a way to believe that we could have done better, and that it could have been prevented. We don't like to face that sometimes you can have all the right judgment and skill, do everything right, and bad things will still happen to you.

Maybe these kayakers were ignorant and foolish, or maybe they were just like us and their environment was more powerful than they were for a moment. We can mostly go along believing we have control of things if we just know enough and practice enough, but remaining aware that it's not entirely true helps us make safe judgments.

Florrie

Beatifully said Florrie!

[Bill Gwynn]

There are also commonly used hand signals for when voice communication is not feasible.

Ed Lawson

Hand Signals

[PeterB]

Reliance on Cell phones can be deadly. Witness that NH paddler who lost his life this winter paddling back from the Shoals. Why won't serious paddlers invest in VHF marine radios which are waterproof and allow for so many more help options on the water than 911 calls. A broadcast to boaters in the area via Ch 72 or 9 could have brought a quick pick up and tow for these guys and they would not have to see their plight in the newspapers. And while I'm on the subject: How many NSPN paddlers are out there without them or worse, stuffed in a hatch or even clipped to their PFD and turned off? With three or more paddlers on the water in rough conditions sometimes the only way to communicate is via the VHF. If you turn yours off you are unconsciously sending a message that you're not available if anyone else needs help. We all don't paddle close enough to hear the spoken voice or sometimes not even close enough to see if another paddler is in distress. I realize this last is a no no but I've been out numerous times with experienced paddlers who break this rule!

I don't now where these comments are coming from, when we don't even know whether these paddlers had vhf or not. The might well have gotten help by vhf, we don't know. They might have been versed in rescues but attempts failed. We don't know.

I second all of Florrie's comments, and I must say, that reading this makes me reluctant to paddle at all, or to freely share information about paddling for fear of what might be said about me should I run into some little problems of the water.

"With three or more paddlers on the water in rough conditions sometimes the only way to communicate is via vhf" is a truly scary statement: I second Ed's comments re: communication among paddlers.

[Gcosloy]

"With three or more paddlers on the water in rough conditions sometimes the only way to communicate is via vhf" is a truly scary statement: I second Ed's comments re: communication among paddlers.

Well excuuussse me! I'll try not to say anything more that could be construed as "truly scary"! I think I'll just shut up now until I go to Kayak Camp this summer and learn all those hand signals. How's this one: finding myself in a sea so large that every other stroke involves a brace and "afraid" I signal my companions who are in the same conditions by dropping my paddle and stick my fist under one arm and do the chicken wing with the other. Oh, yes I then capsize! Maybe this last signal should be added to the list too?

[rylevine]

I don't now where these comments are coming from, when we don't even know whether these paddlers had vhf or not. The might well have gotten help by vhf, we don't know. They might have been versed in rescues but attempts failed. We don't know.

I second all of Florrie's comments, and I must say, that reading this makes me reluctant to paddle at all, or to freely share information about paddling for fear of what might be said about me should I run into some little problems of the water.

"With three or more paddlers on the water in rough conditions sometimes the only way to communicate is via vhf" is a truly scary statement: I second Ed's comments re: communication among paddlers.

I agree with Gene. In terms of cost/benefit, is there a downside to having a VHF radio available?

Bob

[rick stoehrer]

"With three or more paddlers on the water in rough conditions sometimes the only way to communicate is via vhf" is a truly scary statement: I second Ed's comments re: communication among paddlers.

Well excuuussse me! I'll try not to say anything more that could be construed as "truly scary"! I think I'll just shut up now until I go to Kayak Camp this summer and learn all those hand signals. How's this one: finding myself in a sea so large that every other stroke involves a brace and "afraid" I signal my companions who are in the same conditions by dropping my paddle and stick my fist under one arm and do the chicken wing with the other. Oh, yes I then capsize! Maybe this last signal should be added to the list too?

gene....just based on this last little bit it reads like you have a radio and gear but lack some skills and experience.....come paddle and let's see what shakes loose.

[Brian Nystrom]

Arm-chair critiques of rescue situations that assume people were ignorant or made mistakes are a way to believe that we could have done better, and that it could have been prevented. We don't like to face that sometimes you can have all the right judgment and skill, do everything right, and bad things will still happen to you.

Maybe these kayakers were ignorant and foolish, or maybe they were just like us and their environment was more powerful than they were for a moment. We can mostly go along believing we have control of things if we just know enough and practice enough, but remaining aware that it's not entirely true helps us make safe judgments.

Florrie

Obviously, I was speculating and attempting to be somewhat facetious, but the fact that there was no mention of the rescued paddlers having either boats or paddles with them really makes me wonder how well they were prepared skills-wise. There was also was no indication that the conditions were particularly challenging. Then again, it could just be the the report is incomplete.

My point was that safety on the water requires judgment, skill and proper gear. Missing any of these results in problems.

I agree

I confess, I leave mine in the hatch a great deal of the time, and I am unrepentent about it.

Then why bother to carry it at all? My experience has been that when you really need a radio, you need it NOW and you don't often have the option of going fishing in a hatch for it. Should the worst happen and I get separated from my boat, I want the radio with ME, not the boat.

Experienced to me means someone who has done something for awhile. It says nothing about how well they do it or how knowledgeable or skilled they are although those qualities are often erroneous implied by the word.

Excellent point!

To me relying upon a VHF radio clipped to a PFD for communication/safety in lieu of exercising some basic group paddling skills and judgment is just as misguided in some ways as relying upon a cell phone.

Ed Lawson

Who said anything about a radio being a substitute for skills or judgment? It's backup equipment, just like PFDs and dry suits.

I agree with Gene. In terms of cost/benefit, is there a downside to having a VHF radio available?

No, there isn't; a radio is nothing but beneficial. Aside from it's main use for communication, it can also provide weather updates, which can be important when summer thunderstorms are popping up.

[Gcosloy]

gene....just based on this last little bit it reads like you have a radio and gear but lack some skills and experience.....come paddle and let's see what shakes loose.

Gee Rick always welcome working on new skills and experience. I paddle in Salem Sound at least once a week and am thinking of Chebacco Lake sessions this year. Send me your email and I'll let you know when.

[rick stoehrer]

Gee Rick always welcome working on new skills and experience. I paddle in Salem Sound at least once a week and am thinking of Chebacco Lake sessions this year. Send me your email and I'll let you know when.

rickstoehrerathotmaildotcom....i was thinking we go out plunking around on a meaty day and we can try that radio thing...the boys (well, there's a girl in there too, isn't there?) and i have paddled around in some bump and rough for awhile and i can't think of a single instance where we used the radio to communicate within the group...we've used hand/paddle signals (nothing elaborate...quick 1 second jobbies) but never radio's in anything we'd call rough....i'm anxious to try it.

maybe we do it as a club thing and try to work in rescues if folks are interested...have to find some nice bit of bump

[EEL]

In terms of cost/benefit, is there a downside to having a VHF radio available?

I cannot speak for others, but to me the issue is not whether or not a VHF radio is an important bit of safety gear. It is and I never paddle without one. How available it needs to be for immediate use is another question, and does it provide safety when folks wander all over the place still another question.

I believe the comments are directed toward the point that when paddling with others; if it is believed the use of a radio to communicate with other paddlers in the group is necessary for safety because people are all over the place and not paying attention to each other, then there is a failure to exercise some basic/fundamental group paddling skills. Frankly this is a rehash of a discussion or two last year regarding the same problem on group paddles except this time it is being suggested a radio ameliorates the problem.

I suggest it just masks the problem and may prove less helpful than thought. I fail to see what is so difficult about following a few basic rules for group paddling or why some means is thought to obviate the need. Under normal circumstances, I believe the need to use a radio for intragroup communication amongst paddlers should be rare. Even in emergencies it should be necessary only when the group is unable to be self reliant and requires outside assistance.

As an example, a paddle to Seguin Island involved a bit of long period swell 3+ feet and a headwind on the way out. The return would be during a strong ebb. For the return the group divided into two segments. One composed of faster/stronger and one of slower paddlers. The faster group went ahead. At one location, the incoming swell was standing up against the ebb which resulted in around five foot plus waves with some breaking tops. By using radios, the faster group was able to inform the slower group of conditions at that location and discuss whether they should stand station so to speak to provide additional margin of safety or the second would alter course a bit to avoid the area. However, within the groups folks were all within talking distance and in fact carried on conversations while paddling along. Keep in mind that people would disappear for awhile in the troughs even when close. In that setting if someone was only 100 feet away it would be hard to find them which in turn means staying close to retain reasonable visual contact provided a safety margin that a radio would not.

Consider the above conditions and paddlers were wandering about say 50 yards apart, somebody goes over and they must rely on using their radio to notify others of their plight and to summon others paddling with them. Consider just how easily they could direct others to their location when they can seldom see the other paddlers and the other paddlers can seldom see them. Consider just how easy it is to make clear transmissions in that setting and to hear those transmissions. I suspect the folks who had the mishap off Plum Island would say not very easy.

Ed Lawson

[Gcosloy]

"Arm-chair critiques of rescue situations that assume people were ignorant or made mistakes are a way to believe that we could have done better, and that it could have been prevented. We don't like to face that sometimes you can have all the right judgment and skill, do everything right, and bad things will still happen to you.

Maybe these kayakers were ignorant and foolish, or maybe they were just like us and their environment was more powerful than they were for a moment. We can mostly go along believing we have control of things if we just know enough and practice enough, but remaining aware that it's not entirely true helps us make safe judgments."

Florrie

As a former worker in a Pathology Lab I believe in the wisdom of autopsies. While Florrie's sentiments are hard to challenge I do think there is another reason humans tend to speculate on what went wrong even in the absence of complete information: we desperately want to learn from these situations. The articles in Seakayaker magazine and the book "Deep Trouble" represent the best of this hunger for knowledge in the face of mishap or tragedy. There is this overarching concern by some that these speculations or questions disrespect the victims or families who may read them. Unlike the comments found in the online news versions of these events I don't think anyone on this board has been unsympathetic to this concern. But even risking this we should not shrink from asking hard questions and trying to come to some conclusions that in fact may help and instruct others caught in similar situations. I realize now after posting my views about the benefits of VHF radios that there is no unanimity on this subject. Well, I learned something new even in the face of controversy. We're all human and we all want answers even when there are none. As long as we are respectful I think we need to continue to ask questions. Asking ourselves what we would have done differently in the same situation is not a way of showing our superiority but simply our humility. As Florrie put it so well, sometimes there are no good answers.

[EEL]

Then why bother to carry it at all?

You got me. I don't think we disagree all that much actually. For example, if I am solo or with one other person, then the radio is always on the pfd, it is on and typically scanning for WX alerts while monitoring 16. Whether my radio is in the hatch or on the PFD depends upon a variety of factors regarding who I am paddling with, where, and what the nature of the paddling is. I feel OK with my assumed risks, but understand the view it should always be on PFD. to me that has some risks too.

Ed Lawson

[spuglisi]

Asking ourselves what we would have done differently in the same situation is not a way of showing our superiority but simply our humility. As Florrie put it so well, sometimes there are no good answers.

I agree with your last post Gene. I think the problem stems from basing assumptions on, often, inaccurate news stories.

[EEL]

But even risking this we should not shrink from asking hard questions and trying to come to some conclusions that in fact may help and instruct others caught in similar situations.

Completely agree.

Ed Lawson

[florriej]

As a former worker in a Pathology Lab I believe in the wisdom of autopsies. While Florrie's sentiments are hard to challenge I do think there is another reason humans tend to speculate on what went wrong even in the absence of complete information: we desperately want to learn from these situations. The articles in Seakayaker magazine and the book "Deep Trouble" represent the best of this hunger for knowledge in the face of mishap or tragedy. There is this overarching concern by some that these speculations or questions disrespect the victims or families who may read them. Unlike the comments found in the online news versions of these events I don't think anyone on this board has been unsympathetic to this concern. But even risking this we should not shrink from asking hard questions and trying to come to some conclusions that in fact may help and instruct others caught in similar situations. I realize now after posting my views about the benefits of VHF radios that there is no unanimity on this subject. Well, I learned something new even in the face of controversy. We're all human and we all want answers even when there are none. As long as we are respectful I think we need to continue to ask questions. Asking ourselves what we would have done differently in the same situation is not a way of showing our superiority but simply our humility. As Florrie put it so well, sometimes there are no good answers.

Gene, I agree that the "autopsies" are helpful and useful. As a new paddler I always learn a ton from these long dialogs. The disagreements help bring out all perspectives of the issue, and increase my understanding of what goes into good decision making for our sport. Great that there are so many experienced folks out there sharing their thoughts! Florrie

[jeffcasey]

my opinions:

paddling solo: radio on PFD, turned on.

paddling in group: radio on PFD on or off, or in day hatch (off). at least one or two folks in group have radio on PFD and on.

use of radio:

hail outside help if and when

sit on ch72 -- amazing how often some solo NSPN paddler is in the area and joins up

in a big group (like the trips we used to lead), leaders often needed to be in communication between front and back of group as group stretched out (this never seems to happen in a small friendly group, but often happened in big groups with disparate skills)

use of message board:

write your message. go get a beer. if you still want to post it after the beer is gone, go ahead and do it, otherwise delete.