Larry2002 Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 This isn't a real trip report but I'd like to thank Kevin for calling this trip. We had perfect weather and a good turnout with a lot of familiar faces. This is the first time I've been in Rockport and didn't have a problem finding a parking place. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Without wanting to appear ill-mannered, I would like to say a word about this trip and CAM. When paddlers participate (as has been discussed many, many times on this message-board recently), they are all responsible to one another -- and that absolutely includes (and <means>) being aware of everyone else in the party's presence and position. Yet, when I ran into this large-ish group in Folly Cove and paddled out to greet them, only one paddler even turned his head (and answered my question as to Beckers' position). I was abeam the main group, which tells me that every paddler was simply looking forwards -- which is not enough! At all times, it is the responsibility of <every> participant to look around and behind and check on group dynamics or whatever you care to call it. If a paddler capsizes and needs assistance -- and no one notices: problem! Similarly, there was a smaller group of four (?) paddlers bringing up the rear (including Beckers himself) with whom I paddled and played for a half-hour. I saw no sign of anyone up ahead being remotely interested in stopping to allow this group to catch up with them or to find out why they were delaying. In fact, I know that Kevin was quite deliberately holding back to make his point! I know how easy (and relaxing) it is to go paddling into the blue, up ahead of the group, oblivious to what is going on behind; but it should not happen! Please may this be a lesson in group management -- we are all responsible to one another! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Without wanting to appear ill-mannered, I would like to say a word about this trip and CAM. When paddlers participate (as has been discussed many, many times on this message-board recently), they are all responsible to one another -- and that absolutely includes (and <means>) being aware of everyone else in the party's presence and position. Yet, when I ran into this large-ish group in Folly Cove and paddled out to greet them, only one paddler even turned his head (and answered my question as to Beckers' position). I was abeam the main group, which tells me that every paddler was simply looking forwards -- which is not enough! At all times, it is the responsibility of <every> participant to look around and behind and check on group dynamics or whatever you care to call it. If a paddler capsizes and needs assistance -- and no one notices: problem! Similarly, there was a smaller group of four (?) paddlers bringing up the rear (including Beckers himself) with whom I paddled and played for a half-hour. I saw no sign of anyone up ahead being remotely interested in stopping to allow this group to catch up with them or to find out why they were delaying. In fact, I know that Kevin was quite deliberately holding back to make his point! I know how easy (and relaxing) it is to go paddling into the blue, up ahead of the group, oblivious to what is going on behind; but it should not happen! Please may this be a lesson in group management -- we are all responsible to one another! Chris-I was in the first group with the majority of paddlers that simply were not interested in rock play that day. Those in the rear wanted to play and were lagging behind for good reason. I don't know who you talked with (I didn't see you.) but Al was in communication with Kevin on channel 72 several times during the trip. My understanding was that it was agreed by both groups that breaking into two was OK. If this was not the case and was in fact an object lesson designed by Kevin, it was never mentioned within my hearing after the trip was over. Later in the trip we all got together off the east side of Staithmore and travelled back more or less together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Pintail, (or Chris?), I was the one you asked where Kevin was. The larger group I was paddling with was well aware of Kevin's plan to play. As we approached the first rock garden, the 5 of them (Kevins platoon) split off to explore at their leisure. Any concern of them falling back was discussed within minutes as being a course of action Kevin was interested in following. He was quoted in saying that he was tired of strait line trips and wanted to be more relaxed that day. This is the luxury a group of this size could accomodate. I was also tempted to join him but having never paddled around Cape Ann, was drawn to cover more ground. We were a very coherent group. 5 or 6 of us had radios with us. Granted, 2 were packed away but we were well aware of what was going on. You did seem a bit stressed trying to locate Kevin. I was not sure why. In my opinion, this was a well organized group of paddlers that acted responsibly. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would have rated this trip a 9. Close to a perfect day. If only I borrowed Carolyns sunscreen sooner, it would have been a 9.75. Doug Some pics of this paddle: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsbydoug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Have I walked into the Norwegian Blue pining for the fjords skit or the Ministry of Silly Walks skit? Oh...sorry this is serious stuff...its really Rashimon on Cape Ann isn't it? Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Ed I suppose that's an abstract way of looking at it but British humor is not my cup of tea. Who knows what truth is? I think you need to go paddling..... Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Doug and Gene, based upon this thread I would have to say that your actions on the water and in this thread represent good judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Have I walked into the Norwegian Blue pining for the fjords skit or the Ministry of Silly Walks skit? Oh...sorry this is serious stuff...its really Rashimon on Cape Ann isn't it? Ed Lawson Folks, The issue at hand is not so much group management, a term which I feel implies one person is in charge of such a thing, but rather paddler responsibility to another paddler. At the beach briefing, it was mentioned that those who want to play in the rocks along the way should go for it. It was also noted that the plan for the day was to head out, assess conditions, and then decide as a group where to go. As the smaller group began to play in the rocks, that larger group simply paddled ahead. From my perspective, not one person looked back, nor did our group receive a radio message stating the group was going to split. Given the calm conditions, I was curious to see how far the forward group would get before we received a radio call. The distance grew as one in our group asked about the forward stroke and we took time to offer pointers. (It was at this point that Sir Christopher joined us.) After a bit of a wise*ss radio call on my part to the forward group, I called again and suggested that the groups split. For me, the groups splitting was not the problem (people basically self-selected in to their preferred groups); it was in how they split with no one in the forward group letting us know how many there were (we knew our number but we didn't know their's--the subject of my wise*ss call). To me, the whole group should have gathered and made the choice to split. As it was, the decision became a necessity and not a choice. On another note, this review is not meant to cast aspersions or blame. There seem to be too many people on the kayaking boards around the country who seem to relish finding blame in others. Doing so does not foster a learning environment and should not be done here. Overall, it was an enjoyable paddle on a beautiful day and I know that everyone had fun in their respective groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 "...You did seem a bit stressed trying to locate Kevin..." Stressed? You are wrong, Doug. I wonder what on earth gave you that impression? Very little stresses me on the water -- ask that man Beckwith -- or anyone else on this message board (of which I have been a member for about ten or eleven years) who has paddled with me. Regarding your response about two paddling groups: that was not the way I understood it to be at all. Again: ask Kevin! Gene: "I didn't see you" -- why not? You weren't looking about you -- my point exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 My understanding of CAM is it can be most anything those who are on the trip want it to be and there in lies the problem. There are many of us who want more structure in both the posting of trips (what the expected level will be, what the min/max distance will be, etc.) and the expectations of the group once it is on the water. What I mean by expectations is that it be made clear before the group launches how it plans to operate. Then there are those in the club that see these trips are much more experiential. They want it to flow and want everyone to take certain responsibilities. They want paddlers to learn what to do by experiencing it. As would be expected, the first type of CAM trips (more information/agreements earlier) seem to be going well since the expectations are clears. The second type (experiential), as expected, have lead to conflicting expectations on the trip and discussion such as this thread. I felt very caught in-between on this trip as did quite a few others. Those of us in the front group were wondering if we should wait for the rear group or if they had split off. We knew Kevin wanted to play in the rocks. On the other hand, those in front of our group had other plans. Since there was no leadership plan or way to form group consensus (since those in front were paddling without stopping) those in the "middle" were confused. In the end, as in all NSPN trips I have been on, it seemed that the two groups took care of their paddlers. In the front, we did come to a consensus to go into Rockport Harbor for lunch. On the way, two paddlers went out of their way to move over to a well out of track paddler while a group of 3 or 4 waited more than once for the slowest paddler. We also spent some good energy and worked well together rescuing the two inexperienced non-NSPN double-sit-on rental paddlers who in spite of capsizing just past Straightsmouth repeatedly planned to continue out to Thacher Island. FYI, after we changed our tone from suggestive and helpful to prescriptive, they were very happy to be towed about ¼ mile to shore where they called the rental company. Suggestions: 1) Even if the "rules" of CAMS are clear (and I do not think they are or can be complete enough), they certainly are not clear to most of the paddlers. We need to acknowledge that paddlers do not arrive on CAMS we a common group of agreements. This is even more obvious as paddlers try to move up a notch from level-2 to level-3 or are new the club. 2) Nothing wrong with an experiential approach. I use to work for Outward Bound, created and ran OB programs, and much of my classroom teaching is experiential. However, when we teach rock climbing experientially, we don't just say go climb the rock. We first decide on the minimum safety procedures that are necessary (such as belaying) and make sure those skills are taught and supervised. We don't just write them down, we review them on the rock face. So I suggest that we consider the minimum necessary discussion/briefing that need to be part of every CAM, particularly experiential ones. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry2002 Posted August 25, 2008 Author Share Posted August 25, 2008 We need to acknowledge that paddlers do not arrive on CAMS we a common group of agreements. Al Al, being new to the group and trying to transcend level 2, you are correct in assuming I do not understand this. That being said, the only negative comment I heard all day was at the end by the a** who was complaining about us kayakers taking all the parking places. I had a good time – I’m sorry if not all can say that. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Gwynn Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Hi Larry, Just to update you and any other newer NSPN members/paddlers. NSPN up until this season was a ACA PAC (American Canoe Association Paddle America Club). All NSPN official trips were run under the rules mandated to us by the ACA and were led by a qualified leader. These trips were more reminiscent of a guided tour than people just paddling together. Of course NSPN has also always had your standard Show & Go's (unofficial trips) on the message board. This year, for many various reasons, NSPN's BOD voted to drop the ACA. The new model we are using for trips is called CAM (Common Adventure Model) We have a pretty reasonable description of CAM on our website here. There is lots more you can find about CAM by doing a google search. So, the club is experiencing some growing pains as we make this transition to CAM. We are all learning the best way to apply it. Personally, I think CAM is a great way to run things and I have supported it from the beginning. I love the flexibility it provides in how it allows the group to decide the days events as things progress. But, this is a double edge sword, sometimes that flexibility leaves some confused with questions about the "right" thing to do. For example, is this trip run with someone acting as the leader. Who does the beach briefing, is he the leader? Or, is this trip more of a "leaderless" type where things are not as structured and leaders emerge as the situation dictates. Both these types of trips are acceptable under CAM. So, for me, the best I advice I can offer is to use good communication before, during, and after any paddling trip. Let people in the group know your expectations for the day and make sure it fits for you. When out on the trip don't be afraid to speak up if you or anyone else is concerned about anything. A post trip de-briefing is also a good idea, you get to talk about all the cool things you did and saw that day as well as discuss what could have been done to make the day even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glil Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Personally, I had a great time on this paddle. If anyone didn't have a great time, I missed the boat on picking up on that. I'd like to say, though, that people in the front/middle were looking back for the "rock play" group (a group of skilled kayakers with radios). Yes, we were eventually looking from a distance and though we probably should have radioed Kevin sooner, I saw and heard Al try at least 5 different times to contact Kevin-to make sure that everyone was accounted for between the 2 groups (this is when we officially split up), to let the other group know when we were entering Rockport Harbor for lunch, when we were leaving Rockport Harbor, when we got sidetracked helping the non-NSPNers and when we finished that and were heading around Straitsmouth Island to meet up with the other group. My point being that there was a fair amount of communication from the front group to the back group. FWIW, I think that communicating expectations clearly ahead of time is very important, esp. for a large and diverse group. If there is no leadership and no real plan, it is easier for people to follow their own agenda, whether it is putting in some distance and leaving a group behind or stopping to play and expecting others to wait. I'm not saying this is right, but what seems to happen. We can't assume everyone knows what is expected of them if it's not communicated. What might be common sense to one person, might not cross the mind of another person. Sort of a tangent, but also a somewhat relevant example of "common sense" was the group we brought to shore that intended to continue on to Thatcher's Island after capsizing a second time within 20 seconds of being upright. To all of us, it was common sense to get them to shore or at least calmer water where they had a chance to stay upright, but to them, it would have been fine to keep trying and then swim across potential boat traffic to shore if they flipped again (since they were unable to get back in the boat without assist). They just had no idea what they were getting into-we've probably all been there, but hopefully not the same place twice. Anyway, it was a perfect day on the water and a great group to paddle with. Gay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Anyway, it was a perfect day on the water and a great group to paddle with. And this is what it is really all about. As with every trip review posted on this board this season, the one minor issue that was brought up has been blown way the hell out of proportion. That was the reason I was not the first to bring it up. In hindsight while on the water, I decided it was something best left for the next beach briefing. Everyone had a great time on the water, so enough of the back and forth and get out and paddle some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 QUOTE(Kevin B @ Aug 26 2008, 05:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And this is what it is really all about. As with every trip review posted on this board this season, the one minor issue that was brought up has been blown way the hell out of proportion. That was the reason I was not the first to bring it up. In hindsight while on the water, I decided it was something best left for the next beach briefing. Everyone had a great time on the water, so enough of the back and forth and get out and paddle some more. I wasn't on the trip but as an outsider looking in, I don't think that the discussion has been inappropriate or out of proportion. My tendency is to look for ways to avoid this type of problem. Seems pretty clear that the larger the group, the more likely the group will become unmanageable on the water. A good course of action when a trip is called and more than 6-8 show up, is to separate from the start. Become clearly two groups - this will allow for a more cohesive group of paddlers who have more similar goals for the trip. The biggest problem with going out with a large group that ends up separating on the water, is that it is too easy to miss someone who was off exploring while the separation took place. Each group assumes that the person is with the other group... Suz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Gwynn Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Another approach for large groups (or small for that matter) is the buddy system. Choose a buddy at the beginning of the trip and then always be within a 10 second paddle from him/her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 I suppose the trite phrase, "Alls well that ends well" applies here. Frankly, for me, the perseveration this year on this topic has become so tiresome that I couldn't care less. So before asking for the check, may I make this modest proposal in addition to Suz's eminently reasonable suggestion. When say three or so paddlers on a "paddle" choose to drift off to do something that appeals to them and they are reasonably competent folk who can take care of themselves, that is fine. However, they are then on their own and not part of the "paddle". It is their responsibility to rejoin the "paddle" and those on the "paddle" no longer have any formal responsibility to them to keep in touch or monitor their status. That is simply the price to be paid for exercising the freedom to do your own thing. If you don't like the price, then stay with the "paddle" and post "paddles" that appeal to your interests. Among rational adults, I would assume all this takes is a brief conversation and some discussion of where they might rejoin and when and how to facilitate that by radio if needed. By conversation I mean talking to each other directly. If you need radios to have these basic interchanges, something is already out of wack. It seems to me there is a fundamental difference between competent folks wandering off abit to play and the "paddle" fragmenting with people strung out and inexperienced/nervous folks isolated and without supportive advice/assistance from the more experienced paddlers. Seems that all that is needed is more paddlers posting trips with a few more specifics so others can evaluate if it is something they want to do, and the experienced paddlers doing more mentoring on "paddles" so the basics of having an enjoyable "paddle" become understood and practiced as a general matter by members on club CAM trips. Having said that, "Check please, and I hope you all have an enjoyable remainder of the year paddling." Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 oh hell, don't be done yet...i haven't seen you and g since the pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 I suppose the trite phrase, "Alls well that ends well" applies here. Frankly, for me, the perseveration this year on this topic has become so tiresome that I couldn't care less. So before asking for the check, may I make this modest proposal in addition to Suz's eminently reasonable suggestion. When say three or so paddlers on a "paddle" choose to drift off to do something that appeals to them and they are reasonably competent folk who can take care of themselves, that is fine. However, they are then on their own and not part of the "paddle". It is their responsibility to rejoin the "paddle" and those on the "paddle" no longer have any formal responsibility to them to keep in touch or monitor their status. That is simply the price to be paid for exercising the freedom to do your own thing. If you don't like the price, then stay with the "paddle" and post "paddles" that appeal to your interests. Among rational adults, I would assume all this takes is a brief conversation and some discussion of where they might rejoin and when and how to facilitate that by radio if needed. By conversation I mean talking to each other directly. If you need radios to have these basic interchanges, something is already out of wack. It seems to me there is a fundamental difference between competent folks wandering off abit to play and the "paddle" fragmenting with people strung out and inexperienced/nervous folks isolated and without supportive advice/assistance from the more experienced paddlers. Seems that all that is needed is more paddlers posting trips with a few more specifics so others can evaluate if it is something they want to do, and the experienced paddlers doing more mentoring on "paddles" so the basics of having an enjoyable "paddle" become understood and practiced as a general matter by members on club CAM trips. Having said that, "Check please, and I hope you all have an enjoyable remainder of the year paddling." Ed Lawson For someone who wasn't even on this trip, Ed, your comments reflect the common sense view that most of us on the trip had and went unstated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 The comical thing here, is that the fuel that sparked the fire (so to speak) with this forum/debate came from someone that was not even part of this paddle from the start. Maybe people should think twice before trying to spoil the memories of the fine trip this actually was. CAM works and it did on this trip as well. When the waters were calm we did spread out a bit but when things became more serious, we clustered together for safety and leaders became outspoken. We used our radios and everyone returned home safely. I look forward to the next trip. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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