paddle floats

[BLConaway]

Rick,

When a member with your credentials says something like this, it certainly reads to me like I am a fool for going out without more tricks in my bag:

"personally, i hold paddle floats in VERY low regard as a self rescue tool and believe that the illusion of safety they may offer endangers new paddlers lest they {think} that a paddle float is a good alternative to other methods of self rescue that they may not have mastered yet; in the real world they would soon run into the limitations of the tool....and if that's the only tool in your tool box, you got a problem."

Apparently, I have a problem. I think that is CLEAR from what you wrote.

I have no desire to get into a pissing match about exactly what you said vs. the intended or unintended underlying message, but there certainly are a number of different ways you could have responded to my post without going on the offensive with all caps, underlines, and sarcasm. Really?

As someone who loves to kayak, who is working to improve my skills with the small amount of spare time I have, it is in fact pretty discouraging to have a 5 star/ACA Coach/Reg. Maine Guide not only tell me I have a problem, but then respond to my post in such an aggressive way.

I can't say it makes me feel particularly welcome here, FWIW.

[rick stoehrer]

Brenda...I don't think paddle floats are very good means of self rescue. Opinions were solicited and that's mine.

You took that personally and then posted that you found it as discouraging you to paddle....which isn't what I said.

Even directly above if you go back and read just the underlined message, what is it? That paddle floats have limitations and you should go paddle.

I am not picking a fight or trying to piss you off and I don't know why you keep reading that into the message.

I live in snh, if you'd like to come up this week with some friends we can get on the lake and practice some rescues, etc.

[rick stoehrer]

Brenda...I don't think paddle floats are very good means of self rescue. Opinions were solicited and that's mine.

You took that personally and then posted that you found it as discouraging you to paddle....which isn't what I said.

Even directly above if you go back and read just the underlined message, what is it? That paddle floats have limitations and you should go paddle.

I am not picking a fight or trying to piss you off and I don't know why you keep reading that into the message.

I live in snh, if you'd like to come up this week with some friends we can get on the lake and practice some rescues, etc.

[Dabend]

Enough already. Paddlers who find value in a paddle float, bring one. Paddlers who don't, don't.

I have a damn good roll that I have used in unexpected capsizes. And I always bring my paddle float. If someone here could give me one good reason why that was a bad idea, perhaps I would listen. But the only rationale I have seen for not taking one is that it saves space. All that space.

Regarless of what some people say they are saying, the not-so-sublte implication is that if you require a paddle float, you are not as capable a paddler as those that don't need one. And furthermore, you are creating a false sense of safety for yourself. If that is the case, write a post warning people about that. But don't write posts that only seem to be aimed at patting yourself on the back for all your paddling prowess. It doesn't help anyone become a better paddler. And it could make someone leave their paddle float at home because they think it makes them look inexperienced.

David

[billvoss]

My introduction to sea kayaking was via a week long course in Maine back in 2009, taught by a very experienced kayaker who had paddled up most of the Eastern seaboard in a kayak alone. His instruction included paddle float solo re-entry, as well as assisted re-entries, and in my case he also taught me to roll. By the way, that first instructor strongly advised his students to purchase foam paddle floats instead of inflatable paddle floats, because it can take so long to blow up an inflatable paddle float that hypothermia can become an issue.

The following spring I showed up at NSPN's Moving on the Water event with my stitch-and-glue Chesapeake 18, my foam paddle float under the deck bungees, wearing my new drysuit. Rick Stoehrer was my pod's instructor. We never practiced a paddle float re-entry. However, by the end of the day, I felt much better prepared for dealing with problems on the water than I did after my week long intro course in Maine. We never did use paddle floats that day. However, I passed forward yet again last week one of the rescues I learned from Rick at my first Moving on the Water event. I've attended a number of additional NSPN instructional events over the years, often with Rick acting as instructor.

Brenda, Rick can be quite abrasive without even trying, but he is also a very knowledgeable and skilled kayaker who shares his knowledge with kayaker's wanting to learn. I definitely think you should take Rick up on his offer. Don't throw out the tools you have, but see if he can show you some new tricks you like.

[rick stoehrer]

...so in trying to de-escalate a brewing kerfuffle and offer to help someone with less experience who feels slighted, you pop up.

I am not picking a fight with you either.

You are right in one thing. Enough is enough.

[Dabend]

I didn't say anything about you, Rick. the guilty flee where no man pursueth.

[EEL]

"Is this the end of Rico?"

Or at least the end of one more chapter in the ageless debate over the value of paddle floats as self rescue aids?

As parting shots:

1. I suspect Rick S. never had to show an ability to perform a paddle float self rescue in all the steps necessary to achieve a BCU 5* certificate. There is a reason for that and perhaps it had a role in the formation of his opinion for good and bad.

2. Experience and skill are not synonyms. At some point capable is about skill sets and the fewer skills the less capable if capable means coping with difficult situations.

3. Its about levels of risk in given environments with given skill sets. Unless you are on the same page concerning these factors you are talking apples and oranges it seems to me. So long as something actually works in the environment you can reasonable be expected to experience, then good to go with little risk. Just don't expect to survive a black swan moment.

4. Some of us remember the video of the CG retrieving a kayak off Boon Island a few years ago. Very nicely attached paddle with paddle float . Wrong environment and amazingly poor decisions by what many called a "very experienced and safety conscious" kayaker caused a life to be lost. Was it the failure of the technique or the seamanship of the kayaker? To me it was obviously the latter and that failure meant the kayaker was in an environment totally beyond the technique or at least the skills to implement it successfully.

Finally, a question about those big foam paddle floats on the rear deck. Based on experience, do folks find they make T-rescues more difficult than a clean rear deck?

Ed Lawson

[Michael_Crouse]

If you're worried about stuff on the deck, in your pockets, etc.. making a rescue more difficult then you should practice with it. It's that simple, put the spare paddle on the boat, put that VHF on your PFD, keep the knife on the PFD too. It won't take too long before you realize how easy it is for that knife to come out of its sheath or to for you to get poked in the eye with that antenna. You'll figure it out and change things so that it works.... That's sort of why we're all here talking about this, yes?

To answer the question nope, never had an issue with a foam float stored on the deck, a deck bag that filled with water is another story, but one that wasn't me.

[leong]

Those paddle float deniers have been saying that the paddle float rescue is less reliable than other self-rescue techniques. This is undeniable true if you compare a successful roll vs. any wet exit and a standard paddle float rescue (use of the paddle float to make an outrigger of your paddle in order to climb aboard). In fact, it's obviously true that a successful roll is better than any post wet exit technique. But you have to compare apples to apples. Once your roll fails (and it probably will eventually) here’s what you’re left with (not necessarily in optimal order).

1. Cowboy (requires good balance and is very difficult in rough water).
2. Standard paddle float rescue (difficult in rough water but probably more reliable than standard cowboy).
3. Standard re-entry and roll (works well but you need to have a decent roll).
4. Re-entry and roll using paddle float (works well even if you don’t have a good roll).
5. Sponsons.
6. Skyhook with paddle float (works easily, even if you’ve lost your paddle)

Am I missing any self-rescue techniques? Is it agreed that #2 is easier than #1 and #4 is easier and more reliable than #3? It seems like having the paddle float available can only reduce risk. As a bonus, the paddle float helps while pumping out your boat as well as several other advantages.

Does this make sense? Why wouldn’t you carry a paddle float if you believe that it reduces risk? Of course, as you become better at rolls and/or re-entries and rolls the risk reduction of a paddle float diminishes.

Respectfully,

Leon

[EEL]

"If you're worried about stuff on the deck, in your pockets, etc.. making a rescue more difficult then you should practice with it."

Absolutely. Constructive point. Its a little like always practicing rolls by first carefully getting set up or always practicing rescues in flat water. As if that is how it will happen.

"Does this make sense?"

Makes perfect sense. The bone of contention seems to be what should a paddler do if they can use only one technique. I believe the answer to that is just be careful, which of course is easier said than done given the dynamics of the ocean.

Just to be the devil's advocate, if you are solo and wet exit, then your ability to perform any of the remaining self rescue techniques depends up holding on to your kayak. Another thing to practice seems to me as I imagine we have all see boat and paddler going their separate ways.

Ed Lawson

[BLConaway]

Thanks Rick, I appreciate your offer and have no doubt I would learn at lot from you--I hope I have the opportunity at some point (I'm out of town the next 2 weekends).

Yes, I did take it personally, because I am in fact exactly the type of person it was aimed at. But I probably could and should have tempered my post. Lesson I keep trying to learn--don't post in the heat of the moment.

I had a few reasons for writing the post, the primary being to try to shed light on why some people (like myself) may rely on a paddle float rather than other self-rescues--there are certain physical limitations that I think it's easy to overlook when you are an experienced paddler.

I was also responding to the "driving people away" comment, given that I have been privy to a few conversations about how to get more people involved in NSPN, so I thought the feedback might be helpful. I have to admit that it sometimes feels as though the bar for getting recognition for the skills one does have is pretty high on this site--and on some of the trips. There are many more recreational kayakers out there than experts, and I think it's worthwhile to view someone through the lens of what they do bring to the table rather than what they lack. Please let me be clear that this is not directed at any one person--just food for thought.

Respectfully,

Brenda

[Katherine]

Thank you Brenda, I appreciate your feedback. It is helpful. I also appreciate your willingness to engage with Rick in a way that was both honest, self-reflective and respectful.

Rick, I also appreciate your willingness to engage with Brenda and it was very kind of you to offer your time.

I do become concerned when a message thread veers away from being helpful toward insulting. That is not the purpose of the club and I hope are able to consistently find the balance between challenging, educating and being considerate of one another.

[rick stoehrer]

Brenda, whenever you have time send me a message and I'll make time...bring the s.o. and some friends and we'll make a good day of it. No worries.

[Lallen]

A friend shared this demo this am on Facebook.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_LLNATL6BdQ

[leong]

A friend shared this demo this am on Facebook.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_LLNATL6BdQ

Not that I’m trying to drive people away from NSPN but notice yet another use for the paddle float shown in the video; i.e. to help empty water out of the cockpit.

Also, there’s another paddle float rescue technique that I practice and haven’t seen mentioned anywhere in the literature. It’s my skyhook.

Here’s how you do the skyhook: After capsizing inflate your paddle float and re-enter the cockpit as you would with a standard re-entry and roll. Then hold the inflated paddlefloat a little away from your side. You then do a hip snap and roll up using the buoyancy of the paddlefloat. Actually, with the inflated paddlefloat you can get enough righting torque to roll up even without a decent hip snap. The inflated paddlefloat becomes your skyhook. It’s much easier to master than any roll and, in general, is probably more reliable.

-Leon who’s “needlessly self-righteous and domineering” NOT

[Gcosloy]

I don't have a dog in this fight other than to observe that in learning to roll I used Leon's skyhook method to isolate the hip snap. When I was fully comfortable coming up I then moved on to the paddle sweep and combined the hip snap with the paddle motion. One of the difficulties many newcomers experience in learning the roll is how to coordinate the two. By focusing on one at a time via the skyhook, success was achieved.

[josko]

Found a great new use for my paddle float: keeper of oysters (legally) collected enroute. Doesn't get ripped by oysters like a regular shopping bag.