paddle floats

[leong]

while reliable, "crangle" vintage equipment is analog and no longer available; service contracts on existing units are expensive and parts are a bitch to find. the same holds true for aged "granowitz", "godfrey", "stoehrer", "brady" and "sylvester" models...the list goes on and on.

hell, i bring a "dela vega" i've had for years and it's showing it's age but the damn thing is almost unbreakable.

newer, digital era equipment is on the market...use for many years and miles in various conditions and similar utility will be reliably available. You'll know when you've got a good one when it's the first piece of kit you make sure you have for the trip.

Rick,

You read my mind. The “granowitz” equipment failed on my last combat capsize (badly worn parts). Luckily I used the “huntington” (the slender L model) and I was back in the cockpit in no time.

BTW, can I borrow your “dela vega"? Every time a see Ciro passing me in a race he’s got one.

-Leon

[scamlin]

Lorrie:

Was on an extended trip when this was posted so apologies for the late reply.

Brian suggested putting a float onto each blade of a spare paddle and lashing it to the aft deck. Can work but takes time, rigging and may not be secure. And I'd think it would be easily knocked askew in any kind of chop or wind waves.

The way I've seen it used is simple: put the float-equipped paddle in the hands of the assisted paddler. Even a groggy paddler can keep the paddle more or less level and do low-effort bracing with the floats. Quick to deploy, easy to recover from waves knocking floats round, and keeps the paddler involved.

Of course, if the paddler is really out of it and can't hold the paddle, you're back to the lashed approach or as Brian says, rafting up.

Best,

Scott

[Lallen]

Thanks, Scott! Good trick to know!

[josko]

I guess my question is still whether a paddle float deserves space in a leaders' kit and in what conditions/circumstances. To stretch the point a little, a femur splint is a very useful, potentially lifesaving tool that IMHO doesn't deserve space in a kayak because the probability of needing it (to save a life) is just too low.

[Dan Foster]

Even if your self-rescues (roll, re-enter and roll, cowboy scramble) don't require a paddle float, there's still the issue of being back in your boat with a cockpit full of water. As Leon pointed out earlier, a paddle float outrigger gives you much more stability when pumping out.

Is there ever a scenario where you could get back in your boat, but it would have taken in enough water to be unstable?

If Yes, would a paddle float outrigger make it easier to pump out? Are there situations where you'd be successful in staying upright and pumping out with a paddle-float outrigger, but unsuccessful without one?

To answer your question directly, I believe a paddle float deserves space in a paddler's kit when they're sufficiently far from shore and other paddlers who can help, and they've blown their roll, re-entered a partially-filled cockpit, and need to get the water out quickly to regain stability.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Dan F

[leong]

I guess my question is still whether a paddle float deserves space in a leaders' kit and in what conditions/circumstances. To stretch the point a little, a femur splint is a very useful, potentially lifesaving tool that IMHO doesn't deserve space in a kayak because the probability of needing it (to save a life) is just too low.

Josko,

It is obvious that people differ in the way they perceive risk and the alleviation of such risk by carrying personal protective equipment in a kayak. You think the need for a paddle float is vanishingly small and perhaps about the same as the need for a femur splint. I, on the other hand, think the need for a paddle float is not so small and is much much greater than the need for a femur splint. Especially when I consider that one could die very fast sans a paddle float if it’s needed but probably survive sans a femur splint if it’s needed.

But both of us consider the cost and hassle of carrying protective equipment. The attached picture I snapped just today shows my paddle float wrapped around my pump (I assume you do carry a pump on your kayak) as I was about to wash it with my PFD, etc. The pump/paddle-float stores easily behind my backband and it’s almost always there (even when I carry the kayak on the car). In fact, I have to remind myself to remove it after a day of paddling to wash it down with everything else.

Respectfully,

-Leon

[Tim Motte]

A version of this discussion just took place on the RICKA Flatwater Message Board.

Paddle Floats -

The inflatable floats have greater buoyancy, which translates into more support, i.e. stability, for self rescues. However, the hard ones are quicker and a valuable back-up for re-enter and roll. They also are adequate for lighter, more agile paddlers' self rescues.

All that said, perhaps the most valuable use for inflatable paddle floats is for repairing damaged boats. This is especially true when paddling in groups, where paddle float rescues are not generally needed. Inflated paddle floats can fix broken seats, replace lost hatches and provide buoyancy and structure to damaged kayaks, especially when the damaged section is filled with the entire groups inflated paddle floats.

Finally, paddle floats, especially the inflatable kind provide advantages for towing somewhat incapacitated paddlers. The paddle floats can be placed on both ends of the casualty's paddle to provide much greater stability for that paddler. The somewhat incapacitated paddler can then hold onto the paddle or it can be lashed onto the deck of the kayak like outrigger, sponsons with a stirrup or contact tow. Of course, truly incapacitated paddlers require another paddler along side for assistance. However, it is much harder to tow two paddlers than one for any kind of distance.

[Dabend]

I agree. I have never needed a paddle float in 18 years of paddling and many times solo. In fact, I am seriously thinking about not bringing a PFD anymore since, like the paddle float, I have not needed it for that same span of years. If I ever go over, which is rare, I know how to swim and tread water.

Of course, I am kidding. But really, what's the difference between that argument and the ones people are using for not bringing a paddle float?

David

[leong]

I agree. I have never needed a paddle float in 18 years of paddling and many times solo. In fact, I am seriously thinking about not bringing a PFD anymore since, like the paddle float, I have not needed it for that same span of years. If I ever go over, which is rare, I know how to swim and tread water.

Of course, I am kidding. But really, what's the difference between that argument and the ones people are using for not bringing a paddle float?

David

There is no difference. My take on this:

Behavioral scientists have found that people tend to underestimate the risk of low-probability events even when they are high-loss events. However, they’ve found that when people have access to information sources such as weather forecasts (which provide convenient descriptions of risky prospects), they can make rational decisions based on this data. The former case sometimes applies to kayak paddlers. Paddlers who think that they have a 100% (?) reliable roll and/or re-entry and roll may underestimate the possibility of failure. For instance, they might not consider the possibility of spraining a wrist in a rock garden and failing the next combat roll because of the wrist injury. Thus they don’t see the need for a paddle-float backup, even though the cost and inconvenience of a paddle float is trivial.

Analogously, they might not see the need for bow/stern lines when cartopping kayaks.

-Leon

[josko]

Just wondering what you folks carry for meteor protection? Never know when one of these low probability events'll strike.

[John Martinsen]

It's the Tsunamis I really sweat about.

[leong]

Just wondering what you folks carry for meteor protection? Never know when one of these low probability events'll strike.

Josko, In deciding whether or not to introduce a safety measure a quantitative approach generally requires the decision maker to consider its financial cost, as well as its benefits in terms of saving of lives. The cost of a paddle float is trivial compared to the potential risk reduction. So why not take this additional safety measure?

Note that in United States v. Carroll Towing Co., Judge Learned Hand articulated that reasonable precaution has something to do with balancing the burdensomeness of taking a particular safety precaution against the probability and severity of the injuries the precaution protects against.

Basically he said that it is unreasonable not to take a minimally burdensome precaution if it will significantly reduce the likelihood of someone suffering a serious injury. As the precaution becomes more burdensome, the idea of not taking the precaution becomes less unreasonable.

Now let’s consider meteor risk reduction. The probability of being bonked on the head by a meteor is much less than the probability of failing a roll (or re-entry and roll), even though the final result (death) could be about the same. But the cost* of risk reduction for meteors is many orders of magnitude greater than the cost of a paddle float.

*For fun while paddling solo, I sometimes think about a design for a Meteor Protection System (MPS). In a nutshell, MPS would be composed of a large array of netted X-band radars with slaved-lasers all linked with synchronous GPS satellites. The Meteor Control Computer (MCC) would run Bayesian Estimation software on the detection data to distinguish between enemy missiles, decoys and atmospheric anomalies that all result in similar signatures. I estimate cost of building MPS is about $100 billion. And, even so, it will offer almost no protection from supernova explosions and/or comets colliding with the earth’s surface. That is, even if MPS was up an working well in the late Mesozoic Era, it wouldn’t have protected the dinosaurs from extinction.

-Leon

[leong]

It's the Tsunamis I really sweat about.

Johnysmoke, I have a tsunami risk reduction unit that I designed myself using an old weighted drogue parachute. I’m still anxiously waiting for the next tsunami on the East Coast for verification and validation testing.

However, as far as I know, tsunami’s won’t bother a kayaker if he’s far from shore in deep water. So, when you hear the tsunami alert on channel 16, paddle out to sea as fast and as far as you can. You'll probably be safer than your landlubber friends on shore or those NSPN-ers playing in the surf.

-Leon

PS

Don't forget to bring your paddle float, etc.

[leong]

Speaking of uses for paddle floats here’s a lap bag that can be used as a paddle float and it has multiple uses. Personally, I think that it’s dangerous to carry this in a cockpit.

-Leon

[josko]

Speaking of uses for paddle floats here’s a lap bag that can be used as a paddle float and it has multiple uses. Personally, I think that it’s dangerous to carry this in a cockpit.

-Leon

With all due respect, all you're doing is driving people away from NSPN.

[Pintail]

<With all due respect, all you're doing is driving people away from NSPN>

And with all due respect from me, too: how <on earth> do you reckon <that>?

[leong]

With all due respect, all you're doing is driving people away from NSPN.

Josco,

Che sarà sarà.

-Leon

PS

The club was founded in the summer of 1998 by Bob Burnett and friends. I’m one of those friends. Paddling safety was a founding principle of NSPN. I could easily name several dozen current and former members that I introduced to NSPN. Not sure if I drove anyone away; however, if I did then good riddance!

[Katherine]

Hi,

I am confused. Josko, how do you think Leon is driving away paddlers?

[josko]

Yeah, I do; both 'paddle floats' and 'bow lines' threads come across to me as needlessly self-righteous and domineering.

Edited July 8, 2015 by josko

[rfolster]

Josko, you started this thread by asking people for their thoughts on this topic. We gladly provided you with a vast array of opinions. You then went on to say that nothing posted so far had changed your mind, and you pushed the question further. Now that people have continued to delve deeper into their reasoning for their opinions, you call foul? What do you want? If you are going to ask for peoples opinions, and then just dismiss them outright, THAT turns people off from NSPN.

[Pintail]

I am in complete agreement with you, Rob (for once, admittedly)

Josko: lighten up, old chap -- as Rob points out, above, you did start all this. For as long as I can remember, Leon Granowitz has been a stalwart of, and contributor to, this little club (which I know means a lot to him). In fact, I know of several enthusiastic, current members who owe their membership entirely to him for having introduced them...

[BLConaway]

Honestly, it's sweeping comments completely dissing paddle floats and saying that a paddler who doesn't have any other option for re-entry basically shouldn't be paddling that are more likely to turn people (me for one) off. I'm a big busted, big bottomed gal, and heaving my chest up on my boat and getting my butt high enough to get back in without being able to hook one leg on a paddle float would make it mighty difficult for me and I suspect, other women with my build to reenter a kayak. I've tried the cowboy on my boat, it is does not work for me. I paddle solo fairly often, very conservatively, but I always carry a paddle float just in case. I practice with it, and know how to use it, so for someone like me, it's essential. I'm working on a roll, but let's face it, it takes time before it's something you know you can count on, so what should I do in the meantime? Only go with a group? Never go out? I'd never get in any paddling. No, I plan to use what I've got.

[rick stoehrer]

Brenda, that part about "a paddler who doesn't have any other option for re-entry basically shouldn't be paddling...where was that said specifically in that thread again, I can't seem to find it?

Perhaps, you have confused the message that paddle floats are of limited use, with something else that YOU are reading into the message that paddle floats are of limited use.

if your skills are such that a paddle float is YOUR ONLY means of self rescue, then you are taking a greater risk than a lot of folks on this message board - a lot of folks here have decades of experience, multiple means of self rescue and STILL think it's safer to paddle in a group but I don't recall seeing anywhere in this thread where any of them or anyone for that matter, have said that you SHOULDN'T PADDLE. Paddle! Understand the risks you are taking. Paddle!

Paddle!

So, you CLEARLY understand the message now? That paddle floats are a tool with limitations and that you should go paddling?

Edited July 11, 2015 by rick stoehrer

[Michael_Crouse]

OK I'm putting on my old guy hat.....

Back in the day I recall skills sessions at lake Attitash where 1 or 2 people out of 20 could roll, if you were paddling alone it was paddle float or die, not roll or die. Having said that, no one would paddle solo to the Isle of Shoals if they couldn't roll, hell even if they could roll they wouldn't do that.

All I'm saying is only having a paddle float reentry is not the end of the world. Should you learn to roll? Yes. Should you learn a paddle float rentry and roll? Yes. These things don't happen over night and if you use good judgement you'll be fine with just a paddle float rescue.

[leong]

When I first learned to roll last century it was far from bombproof. So, whenever I practiced alone, each failed roll required a wet exit and usually a swim to shore; i.e. I didn’t have a bombproof re-enter and roll either. Accordingly, I was more apt to practice rolling only when a buddy was nearby to perform the Eskimo bow rescue.

Soon I realized that an inflated paddlefloat on the front deck was even better than the bow of another kayak. That’s because I would know exactly where it was and didn’t have to wait until a buddy brought the bow of his boat to my hands. So I did all of my rolling practice with an inflated paddlefloat on the front deck.

You do it this way: After capsizing you grab onto the paddlefloat and hold it a little away from your side. You then do a hip snap and roll up using the buoyancy of the paddlefloat. Actually, with the inflated paddlefloat you can get enough righting torque to roll up even without a decent hip snap. The inflated paddlefloat becomes your skyhook. So I call this my skyhook roll. It’s much easier to master than any roll and, in general, is probably more reliable.

Whenever I used to paddle long distances solo I kept an inflated paddlefloat on my front deck. Probably looked like a dork but who cares. It’s a lot better than getting wet and having to do a re-entry and roll or some other self-rescue technique.

An added benefit of the skyhook roll is you don’t even need a paddle to do it. This could come in handy if you lose a paddle and capsize.

So for the skyhook roll alone I think that it’s worth it to carry a paddlefloat (pre-inflated for dorks or not).

-Leon who’s “needlessly self-righteous and domineering” NOT