Paddle Stroke Question

[chetpk]

I have always found it to be natural or easier to use the foot that is on the same side of the boat that the paddle stroke is taking place on to be the foot that gives pressure to the foot peg during the stroke. Lately I have been trying to use the foot that is on the opposite side that the stroke is taking place on to be the foot to apply pressure to the foot peg during the stroke. Even though it has been harder to get the body to do this, I sense a little more of the power from the stroke showing up in how the boat moves forward. No I have never done timed events over a prescribed distance or some other known way to measure this, but wondered if others have fooled around with this or have a prescribed way that they apply their foot pressure to the pegs during the stroke phase?

[EEL]

Lately I have been trying to use the foot that is on the opposite side that the stroke is taking place on to be the foot to apply pressure to the foot peg during the stroke. but wondered if others have fooled around with this or have a prescribed way that they apply their foot pressure to the pegs during the stroke phase?

Scott:

I have been told that serious (whatever that means) surfski racers tend to push on the side opposite the paddle stroke. I have played with both mainly because I can't remember which to do. I don't notice a big difference during my meandering paddles, but I think your impression is same as mine.

Ed Lawson

[bob budd]

Opposite foot without a doubt. For one thing you have a better opportunity to engage you abs, which is where the power really is. You might be able to think of it from the point of view of a lever arm, where the opposite side is a bit further away. Whatever works.

[brambor]

It would also depend on course correcting. Opposite foot to push the bow towards the target..i.e. steady left foot to weer right.

[chetpk]

Scott:

I have been told that serious (whatever that means) surfski racers tend to push on the side opposite the paddle stroke. I have played with both mainly because I can't remember which to do. I don't notice a big difference during my meandering paddles, but I think your impression is same as mine.

Ed Lawson

I have a hard time holding the focus to paddle stroking on one side and pushing on the other, but I truly feel the boat becoming more efficient. I'm speculating the break down is my think tank has problems at being efficient to make the best out of this experimenting around. "Can't teach an old dog new tricks" as one of my favorite old maiden aunts use to tell me.

[EEL]

"Can't teach an old dog new tricks" as one of my favorite old maiden aunts use to tell me.

Perhaps that is why she was. <g>

Those who race could tell us far more about this. My SWAG is unless you are "cycling" your legs with a decent amount of vertical movement as you straighten the leg, the benefits of pressing on footpegs would not be that great. That in turn suggests if you normally paddle with your thighs on or near the thigh braces you are hindering your ability to paddle with greater power and efficiency. My understanding is some of the newer boats with higher foredecks are designed that way to enable a paddler to have their legs in a straight line and "cycle" them with decent vertical motion as opposed to paddling with the legs in a "frog" position. My personal experience is paddling in the straight as opposed to frog leg position is much more comfy and efficient, but does require more flexibility and core strength.

Ed Lawson

[Michael_Crouse]

For me cycling my feet helps with torso rotation and it keeps my feet from falling asleep.

When I first started paddling I was applying pressure to the opposite foot, I recall doing this in an IDW with a guy named Micky many years ago. At some point in the past few it seems like it changed to applying pressure to the same foot as the paddle was in the water on.

[lhunt]

cycling my feet helps with torso rotation and it keeps my feet from falling asleep.

Yes, I'd agree with both those things. The "knees up" technique as I understand it is to wind yourself toward one side (say the left), squirming in the seat so that your right hip is a bit forward and you feel like your belly button is pointing off the left side. Bending the right knee helps enhance the effect. Taking your right foot momentarily off the footpeg during the windup helps keep your feet from going numb. Then plant your paddle close to your toes on the right and unwind while pushing on the right foot (and paddling, of course). This squirms you back the other way, pulls the left hip forward, bends the left leg a little, and gives your left foot a little circulation.

Needless to say the downside of knees-up paddling is the need to get your knees back under the cockpit for the roll in the event of a capsize, so it's reasonable to only do it when the bump is manageable.

[leong]

I have always found it to be natural or easier to use the foot that is on the same side of the boat that the paddle stroke is taking place on to be the foot that gives pressure to the foot peg during the stroke. Lately I have been trying to use the foot that is on the opposite side that the stroke is taking place on to be the foot to apply pressure to the foot peg during the stroke. Even though it has been harder to get the body to do this, I sense a little more of the power from the stroke showing up in how the boat moves forward. No I have never done timed events over a prescribed distance or some other known way to measure this, but wondered if others have fooled around with this or have a prescribed way that they apply their foot pressure to the pegs during the stroke phase?

Whether or not you use a knees-together racing stroke, remember this:

Your legs add energy to the stroke. As you pull the right (left) paddle through the water push against the right (left) footpeg. This will add power to the rotation and will positively transfer the force of the rotation into forward motion of the kayak.

[prudenceb]

Yes, I'd agree with both those things. The "knees up" technique as I understand it is to wind yourself toward one side (say the left), squirming in the seat so that your right hip is a bit forward and you feel like your belly button is pointing off the left side. Bending the right knee helps enhance the effect. Taking your right foot momentarily off the footpeg during the windup helps keep your feet from going numb. Then plant your paddle close to your toes on the right and unwind while pushing on the right foot (and paddling, of course). This squirms you back the other way, pulls the left hip forward, bends the left leg a little, and gives your left foot a little circulation.

Needless to say the downside of knees-up paddling is the need to get your knees back under the cockpit for the roll in the event of a capsize, so it's reasonable to only do it when the bump is manageable.

So you're NOT doing opposite side pushing, correct? Paddle in water on right side, right leg/foot pushing on right side... or am I missing something here?

pru

[lhunt]

So you're NOT doing opposite side pushing, correct?

pru

Um, yes, like Michael I'm NOT doing opposite side pushing :-) Actually, I never heard of that before.

With regard to course correction: I have an ONNO footbar. It works the same way as footpegs, but goes all the way across. I can get a nice gentle course correction by putting both feet on one side of the boat (say the left side, to veer right) and continuing a normal stroke, maybe with a little outside lean. Like most racers, though, when racing I normally use a rudder, because the benefits of a concentrated symmetric forward stroke overcome the drag of the rudder, or so they say. And yes, it is possible to do the leg pumping thing while manipulating the rudder, you just can't lift your foot in that case.

[EEL]

Your legs add energy to the stroke. As you pull the right (left) paddle through the water push against the right (left) footpeg. This will add power to the rotation and will positively transfer the force of the rotation into forward motion of the kayak.

Just so I see if I have this right.

I assume we are talking about the same thing, but a different way of thinking about/expressing it. I think of the force on the footpeg as not pushing on it as such although that is the sensation, but rather the result of the footpeg being a bracing point enabling the maximum amount of force developed as the leg muscles flex and torso unwinds to be transferred to the paddle. My impression is that if you do this with a reasonable degree of proper technique it is quite easy to paddle at a "normal" touring/club pace with no perceptible arm effort. As the speed goes up the work load over more and more muscle groups comes into play and gets higher.

Ed Lawson

[lhunt]

I think of the force on the footpeg as not pushing on it as such although that is the sensation, but rather the result of the footpeg being a bracing point enabling the maximum amount of force developed as the leg muscles flex and torso unwinds to be transferred to the paddle.

Well, partly, I guess, because you are pushing yourself around to pivot a bit in the seat. But you are also actually pushing the boat. Your paddle pushes you, and you push the boat, partly through your butt, partly through your feet. Of course, if you're like me, you're also trying not to push yourself ineffectually back into the seat backband, which is a complete waste of energy and is hard on both feet and backband.

My impression is that if you do this with a reasonable degree of proper technique it is quite easy to paddle at a "normal" touring/club pace with no perceptible arm effort. As the speed goes up the work load over more and more muscle groups comes into play and gets higher.

Yes, if you are used to fitness paddling it becomes easier to paddle at a "normal" touring/club pace, and yes, if you have a good stroke you probably do that without using your arms much. As you say, even if you aren't using your arms to push the boat, you still have to hold the paddle. The faster you go, the harder your arm muscles have to work to transmit work from torso to paddle. Actually, sometimes it's my hands and wrists that suffer the most, probably because being female there is just less there to start with.

But I remember as I first started getting the stroke a little better, it seemed to me that just maintaining the new stroke was quite difficult. It uses different muscles (abs, and whatever it is that holds your arms high and the paddle way out in front of you). I actually found it harder to keep it up (at a slower speed) than my "old" stroke. I remember thinking "well, maybe that's a better stroke, but I can't imagine doing that for more than a couple of miles!". But muscles can be trained, it turns out. So getting the stroke right helps, but doing hard paddle workouts helps, too.

So I'll give a little plug for doing some fitness paddling on the side, even if you can only find time to go to a local river, as is often the case for me. The training gives you a nice focus for physical fitness in general - you push yourself hard and it feels good. You get a nice strong core and lose weight while doing what you love. You reduce the chances of repetitive injury by getting stronger. When winter comes and there is only a gym to fall back on, you always have your kayaking goals to work toward. It makes it more interesting. Then as a nice fringe benefit, on group paddles you can sit back and enjoy the scenery. I'd much rather spend my exercise time racing my own time to the North Bridge and back on the Concord River than doing 1-1/2 hours on the Stairmaster (!)

I just realized how off-topic this is. Oh, well.

-Lisa

[EEL]

But you are also actually pushing the boat. Your paddle pushes you, and you push the boat, partly through your butt, partly through your feet.

That description makes sense to me with regard to what "pushing" means in this context. Thank you.

trying not to push yourself ineffectually back into the seat backband, which is a complete waste of energy and is hard on both feet and backband.

That is how I have interpreted most discussions/descriptions of "pushing" with the feet on the footpegs and it never made sense to me.

Something akin to description of tilting the boat by pushing up on the thigh brace, but that is really off topic.

I just realized how off-topic this is.

So what? Worthwhile stuff about adapting to new physical demands and value of fitness activities.

Ed Lawson

[Brian Nystrom]

That is how I have interpreted most discussions/descriptions of "pushing" with the feet on the footpegs and it never made sense to me.

Racers use boats without backbands and with seat that allow a degree of butt rotation and even fore-aft movement. With that type of setup, pushing on the footpegs adds power/length to the stroke. OTOH, pushing hard on the footpegs in the average touring boat, which does not allow for rotation or fore-aft movement, is a complete waste of energy. As was stated above, all it does is make your feet and back sore, without any performance improvement.

All you need to do is to resist the force of the paddle stroke which is why paddling with straight legs (Greenland style) is just as effective at moving a boat and it's more energy efficient, since you're resisting the paddle force with your bones rather than your muscles. It seems that many people equate getting a pumped feeling in their legs with paddling efficiency, but there is no correlation between the two in a touring boat.

[Pintail]

Some very interesting discussion here; but, Chetpk, although I think you should do whatever makes you happy or comfortable, I have taken forward stroke classes with at least three well-known specialists (all with racing background) and never was pushing or exerting pressure with the "opposite side" foot mentioned -- <never> -- only with that foot on same side as your current stroke.

FWIW...

<the average touring boat, which does not allow for rotation or fore-aft movement, is a complete waste of energy> I find this observation a little harsh, Brian...it almost sounds as though you advocate non-rotation, since most of us paddle "touring boats" -- which we know is nonsense?

<Opposite foot without a doubt> You disagree with Ben Lawry, Oscar Chalupsky and a former Australian olympic coach?

[PeterB]

Ms. Huntingtons description: "The "knees up" technique … it is to wind yourself toward one side (say the left), squirming in the seat so that your right hip is a bit forward and you feel like your belly button is pointing off the left side….. Then plant your paddle close to your toes on the right and unwind while pushing on the right foot (and paddling, of course).”

is about as succinct and sound as can be, so I would be inclined to stick with this, keep things as simple as possible, and leave it at that.

Personally, I have found the forward stroke the most difficult part of all kayaking, so keeping it as simple(or as un-complex) as possible works (or at least doesn't not work) for me, and, as Mr.Pintail contests, concurs with what professionals in the field council.

I imagine that with enough practice, either would work, but pushing on the opposite side of pulling (wasn’t there a Dr. Dolittle character called The Pushmi-Pullyu?) would, for me, be adding more complexity to an already complex act, more than my addled forward stroke brain can deal with.

[lhunt]

Re: Brian and Sir Christopher,

I guess my take on this is that if you have your knees really locked under the coaming your rotation is limited to torso. That's better than not rotating at all, and locking the knees is better for "wearing your boat" in rough water. Pushing hard on the feet in that position locks you in even tighter, and it's possible to overdo that, especially if you are feeling a little unstable. Pumping the legs in that position is probably not going to help much, but you can still rotate at the waist without pumping.

But if your knees are up or even just fairly loose under the coaming, you might be able to extend the rotation down to the hips. That, of course, depends on your seat. Some people enhance the ability to "squirm" in a "normal" seat by putting a trash bag or other shiny plastic on the seat. Then if you can pump the legs it helps your butt rotate a little more. As you tense up your trunk muscles to pull back the paddle, you get another inch or so of rotation from straightening the leg and turning the butt back in the seat.

My seat has a reasonably good shape for movement. It has a backband, but when I'm really pushing I sit up more to be mostly free of it. I think the backband is still giving me a little support, but it's hung from bungees, so it moves with me.

I have no experience with paddling with straight legs - I guess from imagination I can only say that it's more efficient to "resist" with muscles, because you can use those muscles to amplify the movement.

I'm not sure what you mean about fore-aft movement - the racing boats I've looked at have seat adjustments to trim the boat, or to get you properly centered in the cockpit, but the seats stay fixed while paddling.

[lhunt]

I just had another thought (while mowing the lawn, of all things) that maybe the opposite foot pushing is more appropriate for paddling a play boat. I don't have much experience in that realm, but it seems that the increased rocker and shorter waterline that give you more maneuverability might contribute to yaw if you push hard with both foot and paddle on the same side when paddling straight ahead.

-Lisa

[leong]

All that Lisa said about rotation and the forward stroke is correct (except, I think, what she said about playboats). Some additional comments follow:

“Opposite foot [from paddle stroke] without a doubt.”

Clearly wrong! Consider the following mental experiment:

Consider a low-frictionless cockpit with footpegs on both sides. You are about to take a forward stroke with the right paddle blade (i.e. pull the right paddle blade backwards through the water). For an efficient stroke, you are already rotated as far to the left as you can. If you press on neither footpeg, the backwards pull on the paddle will slide you forward in the cockpit. To counteract this slide, you can press on the right footpeg with your right foot. Now, instead of your body sliding forward, your kayak will move forward from the power of the paddle stroke and the footpeg will push on your body so there is no forward movement of your body with respect to the kayak (the pull from the paddle and the push back from the footpeg, almost in-line, will cancel out and there will be no turning torque on your body). Next, consider what will happen if, instead, you push on the left footpeg with your left foot. The combination of a pull on the right paddle and a push on the left footpeg will result in a left turning torque on your body. But, you’ve already rotated your trunk as far to the left as you can and now you want to unwind to the right. Therefore, the first case (push on the footpeg on the same side as your paddle stroke) is what you should do.

“Racers use boats without backbands and with seat that allow a degree of butt rotation and even fore-aft movement.”

If by racer you mean Olympic sprinting then the statement is probably universally true; i.e. as far as I know Olympic sprint kayaks don’t have backbands. However, for ocean racing it’s a mixed bag. For example, the Epic 18X is considered a fast ocean-racing kayak and it has a backband. The Westside Thunderbolt (a hyper-fast ocean-racing kayak) doesn’t come with a backband but several racers in the Blackburn have added backbands to their boats. Obviously, surfskis don’t have backbands.

If by fore-aft movement you mean fore and aft movement of your butt then the fairly large cockpit of the Epic 18X allows for that. Also, many racing kayaks like the 18X allow for fore-aft movement of the seat, used for trim and centering the thigh position. I never heard of any kayak that has a seat that can be moved while racing.

“I have been told that serious (whatever that means) surfski racers tend to push on the side opposite the paddle stroke.”

I think you’ve been given erroneous information. For example, from Barton’s website “…Not only is he thrusting back with his leg on the stroke-side Barton also is swaying his knees inboard and outboard to compensate for the …”.

[Brian Nystrom]

Christopher,

I certainly do not advocate "non-rotation" and you don't need to push with your legs in order to rotate your torso. If you are braced against the foot peg with a straight leg, you can rotate your torso just as well as if you're pushing on it with a bent leg, as a touring boat with a back band will prevent you from rotating your hips the way you can in a boat without a back band. One can remove or loosen the back band in a touring boat to gain some freedom of movement and I know a few people who do that, but I doubt many people paddle that way.

As for my reference to "fore-aft movement", what I meant was that some racing boat seats allow for a minimal amount of fore-aft sliding on the seat during the stroke. That effectively lengthens the stroke a small amount.

Regarding opposite leg pushing, I have to agree with Leon. From a bio-mechanical standpoint, pushing with the opposite leg would reduce your ability to rotate toward the paddle side.

[Pintail]

I think I understand what you're saying, Brian; but your first post was slightly misleading in its wording (for me). Now, regarding the torso rotation bit -- of course I'm with you for the main. However, I cannot personally <separate> torso rotation and hip rotation (which I think is what you are trying to suggest?) -- I'm sorry; but when I rotate my own torso, my hips very soon go along for the ride! In fact, I can only rotate a couple of inches before hips start, of neccessity, to follow...and head rotation (to follow the paddle) is further complication because it, too, has a mind of its own (ha ha!)

There will always be some friction for the likes of us, whether one has a backband or not (I do not: I have a foam pad behind me in each of my boats) -- between backside and seat, for instance; but it doesn't really matter. Good posture will reduce this friction by backband -- sitting up properly to facilitate rotation.

Have we exhausted this subject, I wonder? I hope Chetpk feels his query has been answered?

Perhaps he will now try to change his technique? ;^)

[Gcosloy]

There is an expression touted by a coach of champion swimmers. "The position of the head determines the movement of the body." In other words in swimming if you get the head right the body will follow. Is there any analogy to the forward stroke in kayaking? As you attempt to rotate the torso does it help to move your head in the direction of rotation as well? Is Greg Barton's head rotating along with his torso or is his head positioned straight ahead when he races?

[EEL]

I hope Chetpk feels his query has been answered?

Perhaps he will now try to change his technique? ;^)

Actually, Scott asked two questions and I am the only one who answered his question regarding "pushing" on the opposite side. He asked if anyone had tried it and what was their experience. Several folks have provided logical reasons why it does or does not work, but nobody has said they have given it a serious try and what their impressions were.

I totally agree is is contrary to conventional wisdom and teaching. I had never heard of the technique before someone mentioned it to me. I may have misunderstood the person who mentioned it or they may have been telling me a tall tale to encourage playing around with the boat and paddle as it was an instructional setting. However, I have played around with it for short periods and the sensation when you do it is that you rotate toward the paddle side more easily and it is more efficient. What that sensation actually means is hard to say without objective measurements of speed and heart rate. Not that it is the stroke I use or that I plan on changing over.

I find it hard to believe it is better and am skeptical, but I am not inclined to reject it on the basis of opinions without an empirical basis either.

This reminds me of the long discussion awhile back about needing to move the paddle to the stern during a hanging draw as the boat slowed. In theory I guess it was logical and correct, but in reality you need to move the paddle forward.

Ed Lawson

[lhunt]

Is Greg Barton's head rotating along with his torso or is his head positioned straight ahead when he races?

It looks to me like the elite racers face where they are going (see here, for example). The gentleman who so kindly helped me with my stroke suggested moving the head "a little" in practice as an aid to loosening up and learning the stroke. I never managed it for long, however, as it makes me seasick, and it's hard to focus on a small distant point in front of you as so often happens on long crossings.