lhunt Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Lis, Just a quickie: I had a fitness Kayakpro JET with a OE "pull bar" attached ahead of its footrest plank. I assume this setup is prevalent for these types of kayaks? See ya in the sunlight. ErnUgh, what sunlight? You mean is a pull bar standard equipment on flatwater K1s? Sorry, I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Don't laugh, it has been done! Called a "pull bar", here is a picture (with a tiller bar rudder control). I don't see it working with a gas-pedal rudder - you can only do so much with your feet. I'm on the theoretical "it would work OK" side, since I try to take my foot off the footbar during the windup anyway. I think all you would use it for is to help you rotate your hips, not for propulsion. But I mention this just for interest, not as a proponent. "I think all you would use it for is to help you rotate your hips, not for propulsion." But, wouldn’t some of the leg pull provide more power to unwind the rotation which would result in higher propulsion power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lhunt Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 But, wouldn’t some of the leg pull provide more power to unwind the rotation which would result in higher propulsion power?Well, I guess it would. I was thinking of using it more at the end of the stroke than the beginning, but there's no basis for that. I'm speculating wildly here, will now try to back out gracefully... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Well, I guess it would. I was thinking of using it more at the end of the stroke than the beginning, but there's no basis for that. I'm speculating wildly here, will now try to back out gracefully... :-) If you can’t tease a great training partner then whom can you tease? Your nemesis, Cyndi Janetzko, beat you in Blackburn 2010 by over four minutes. She used a pull bar on her foot bar. Although, I still beat her without a pull bar I might have done much better if I had one too. I guess it’s called pull-bar envy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 <...almost nobody I see on the water...really has much hip rotation...>How on earth can one observe "hip rotation" when the hips of most of us here are encased in a neoprene sprayskirt <and> are essentially "below decks"? Just wondering...David? ;^) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 <...almost nobody I see on the water...really has much hip rotation...> How on earth can one observe "hip rotation" when the hips of most of us here are encased in a neoprene sprayskirt <and> are essentially "below decks"? Just wondering...David? ;^)Sir Godfrey: There are many invisible things in the world that we can observe indirectly, through their effects. For example, I can infer from your post here that you have quite probably not read this thread in detail, even though I was clearly not present when you were doing the reading. Or maybe you read it, but are just being perverse -- I am giving you the benefit of that doubt on that. In any case, to infer hip rotation behind an opaque spray skirt and hull, X-ray vision or telepathy are not required. Allow me to explain in detail. As I said in this (or maybe the other) thread, you can get a pretty good idea of how much hip rotation is happening by observing the bottom of the paddler's PFD. If it is moving back and forth vigorously, they are probably doing good hip rotation. I say "probably" because the term "hip rotation" means more than just rotating ones hips (a common linguistic conundrum which I'm sure you have encountered). "Hip rotation" is actually shorthand for the entire process of rotating ones hips, pushing with ones legs and feet and transmitting power from the lower back and hips to the paddle, rather than from the upper back, shoulders and arms. So, while a paddler whose lower PFD is moving back and forth a lot is almost certainly moving their hips back and forth, there is no guarantee that they are actually performing the entire process -- maybe their legs are dangling loosely on the bottom of the hull rather than pumping and alternately pressing the footpegs or bulkhead. So in that sense you are correct -- one cannot be sure without removing the spray skirt and observing the formerly hidden parts of their body (though there are other observational clues, which would require more space to explain). But it is pretty likely they are, wouldn't you say? It's hard to imagine a paddler would go to all the trouble (and it is a lot of trouble until you get the habit) to move their hips that much if you did not have at least a semblance of the entire process of hip rotation, leg/foot pushing etc to transmit the power from the hips and lower back to the paddle. But back to your original critique of my claim. It's actually quite a bit simpler then the above, as you can discern with the application of some simple logic. I was actually looking for the opposite inference -- lack of good hip rotation. In that case, the motion of the lower part of the PFD is definitive, despite the opaque spray skirt and boat hull. If the lower PFD is not moving back and forth vigorously, they are certainly not rotating their hips vigorously either. How can I claim this? Simple. I do not think it is anatomically possible to rotate ones hips vigorously without also moving the lower part of the PFD back and forth a lot. Logically speaking, this is, of course, the celebrated difference between a statement and its inverse or converse, which is often treated incorrectly in everyday conversation, and quite frequently in political discourse. Have you studied formal logic? Even if not, I'm confident you are aware of this phenomenon. In any case, Sir Godfrey, I trust that you now grasp what I was saying and can acknowledge both its accuracy and the logical, linguistic and physical principles behind my assertion. Thank you very much for the opportunity to explain my reasoning in detail, and also to provide this tutorial on elementary inferential logic. Regards. --David (removing tongue from cheek) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Allen Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Oh common people, get off the internet and go paddle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Oh common people, get off the internet and go paddle!Oh, gee Dad. Can't we have a little fun while we are stuck in the office on a rainy weekday. Glad *you* can get out today and are not on the internet. ;-))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Oh common people, get off the internet and go paddle! Come on, Phil, surely, you’re joking. As you well know I’m the only commoner in the NSPN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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