Paddle Stroke Question

[spider]

In a bit of a paradox I find when I paddle a ruddered boat I always engage opposite knee

but

when I paddle with a skeged boat and fixed foot rest I always push on the same side, from habit more than anything I suppose.

I guess I could say I'm paddling correctly about half the time one way or the other depending on ones' school of thought on the subject.

[leong]

In a bit of a paradox I find when I paddle a ruddered boat I always engage opposite knee

but

when I paddle with a skeged boat and fixed foot rest I always push on the same side, from habit more than anything I suppose.

I guess I could say I'm paddling correctly about half the time one way or the other depending on ones' school of thought on the subject.

Hmm, if you mean a ruddered boat with sliding footpegs then I have no idea which is better (push on opposite footpeg or do it the "normal" way). If I was forced to paddle a boat that had sliding fotpegs I'd disengage the rudder and lock the footpegs in place. Look into the SmartTrack rudder system (http://www.topkayaker.net/Articles/Instruction/RudderSmartTrack.html) or a gas/pedal footbar such as from Onno (http://www.onnopaddles.com/onnocomponents.html).

[Pintail]

Lawson-san, you <are> being technical with Chet's original post, aren't you? He asked <perhaps> two questions in his very last sentence; but they were on the same topic and one followed on from t'other -- hardly two separate questions, in my eyes (it was essentailly an "either...or..." case).

Since it seems that no one else (?) has at least <tried> this odd-sounding footwork, then none of us are qualified to answer -- except you! However, we did give assorted answers to the <general> query!

See you on the water soon, perhaps?

[EEL]

Lawson-san, you <are> being technical with Chet's original post, aren't you?

Perhaps the pot calling the kettle black? <g> Point taken nevertheless.

If I can remember how to get in my boat, let alone how to paddle it, and with a little luck I may see you at the Sept. 25 meeting and on the calm/peaceful portion of the paddle.

Ed Lawson

[chetpk]

When I sit on a slippery floor keeping the hips loose so they can slip a little forward or backwards then do an imaginary paddle stroke, it just feels to me like it is the hip side and leg side that is opposite of the side I'm doing my imaginary paddle stroke on that naturally seems to want to slide a tad bit in front of the other leg-hip side. If this truly is the case then shouldn't that leg that is opposite of the paddle stroke side be the leg to deliver the most power to the foot pegs-boat? If this cause and effect holds any water (excuse the pun) then it would require the hips to be loose and allowed ever so slightly to be able to slide a bit back and forwards from the hips doing a mini rotation like the shoulders do, but in an opposite direction. I think what makes this stroke difficult is it ever so slightly seems to work best when one can make their shoulders rotate clockwise (counter clockwise) while the hips rotate counter clockwise (clockwise). I haven't come close to imprint this to muscle memory, but is just feels like more power and efficiency over the short stretches I can get it locked in.

[leong]

When I sit on a slippery floor keeping the hips loose so they can slip a little forward or backwards then do an imaginary paddle stroke, it just feels to me like it is the hip side and leg side that is opposite of the side I'm doing my imaginary paddle stroke on that naturally seems to want to slide a tad bit in front of the other leg-hip side. If this truly is the case then shouldn't that leg that is opposite of the paddle stroke side be the leg to deliver the most power to the foot pegs-boat? If this cause and effect holds any water (excuse the pun) then it would require the hips to be loose and allowed ever so slightly to be able to slide a bit back and forwards from the hips doing a mini rotation like the shoulders do, but in an opposite direction. I think what makes this stroke difficult is it ever so slightly seems to work best when one can make their shoulders rotate clockwise (counter clockwise) while the hips rotate counter clockwise (clockwise). I haven't come close to imprint this to muscle memory, but is just feels like more power and efficiency over the short stretches I can get it locked in.

Instead of the imaginary paddle stroke pull on a post (pretend a post is planted into the floor) on your right side. If you pull hard enough won't your right leg and right hip slide forward? When you're paddling a real boat each stroke is like pulling one of a series of poles (a bunch of poles to the right and left of your boat).

[lhunt]

...it just feels to me like it is the hip side and leg side that is opposite of the side I'm doing my imaginary paddle stroke on that naturally seems to want to slide a tad bit in front of the other leg-hip side.

I don't see it, Scott. I have two unrelated observations, though:

• Make sure in your floor experiment your feet are up against a wall to simulate footpegs. The movement feels very different otherwise.
• Most of the power is in the very first part of the stroke. You are rotating to set up for a snap backward, but also to extend the paddle as far as possible toward your toes so as to get a few more inches of this power. Sliding the opposite hip forward undermines this goal.

Rotating the way you describe would give your torso a nice tight twist, but I don't think it would transmit the untwisting into forward movement all that well. And it would have your hips working against you during the all-important first "catch" phase of the stroke. Remember that in a normal Euro or Wing paddle stroke you are exiting the water when your hand is at your hip. (GPs are a whole different story, of course.)

There is a nice detailed written description from Greg Barton here.

-Lisa

[leong]

Repeating what I said before:

"Whether or not you use a knees-together racing stroke, remember this:

Your legs add energy to the stroke. As you pull the right (left) paddle through the water push against the right (left) footpeg".

There is absolutely nothing else to say. The question and correct answer (above) has nothing to do with backbands, racing, hips, knees up, thigh muscles, rotation (you can an push with a straight leg without rotating), etc.

Almost everything else that was said is either guilding a lily that doesn't need guilding or is just plain wrong.

The physics of the situation is simple but I'll leave that as an exercise for the interested student.

Let's end this thread and, if desired, start a forward-stroke racing thread instead. I recommend Lisa Huntington, Greg Lesher and yours truly as contributors to such a thread. We've all raced many times.

[djlewis]

Yes, I'd agree with both those things. The "knees up" technique as I understand it is to wind yourself toward one side (say the left), squirming in the seat so that your right hip is a bit forward and you feel like your belly button is pointing off the left side. Bending the right knee helps enhance the effect. Taking your right foot momentarily off the footpeg during the windup helps keep your feet from going numb. Then plant your paddle close to your toes on the right and unwind while pushing on the right foot (and paddling, of course). This squirms you back the other way, pulls the left hip forward, bends the left leg a little, and gives your left foot a little circulation.

Needless to say the downside of knees-up paddling is the need to get your knees back under the cockpit for the roll in the event of a capsize, so it's reasonable to only do it when the bump is manageable.

Lisa -- you have it exactly right. Foot pushing on the same side is correct because it promotes (rather than opposes) proper hip rotation (what you call a squirm), and hip rotation is where the power should come from.

Sorry to say this, but almost nobody I see on the water -- and this includes quite a few well-known coaches -- really has much hip rotation. Torso rotation, yes, but that's only because the shoulders and upper body are anatomically considered part of the torso. In fact, that's what most people think of as the torso. But it's really all in the hips, and the famous "torso rotation" formula should really be changed to "hip rotation". (If you rotate your hips, your shoulders will come along for the ride, or even add a bit -- but not vice versa).

So bottom line for most people -- if you don't rotate strongly from the hips, it really doesn't matter which side you push your foot on. That's how we can get these passionate opinions both ways -- from people who don't rotate their hips. BTW, to see on the water who's rotating their hips, watch the bottom of their pfd -- it will be moving back and forth a lot. That's no guarantee that they are doing the right things under the spray skirt, but if the bottom of the pfd is not moving back and forth, they definitely are not rotating their hips.

Now, a pop quiz to see who's really understood the lesson. When paddling backwards, which side should you push your foot on -- same as paddle in water or opposite?

--David.

[spuglisi]

Lisa -- you have it exactly right. Foot pushing on the same side is correct because it promotes (rather than opposes) proper hip rotation (what you call a squirm), and hip rotation is where the power should come from.

Sorry to say this, but almost nobody I see on the water -- and this includes quite a few well-known coaches -- really has much hip rotation. Torso rotation, yes, but that's only because the shoulders and upper body are anatomically considered part of the torso. In fact, that's what most people think of as the torso. But it's really all in the hips, and the famous "torso rotation" formula should really be changed to "hip rotation". (If you rotate your hips, your shoulders will come along for the ride, or even add a bit -- but not vice versa).

So bottom line for most people -- if you don't rotate strongly from the hips, it really doesn't matter which side you push your foot on. That's how we can get these passionate opinions both ways -- from people who don't rotate their hips. BTW, to see on the water who's rotating their hips, watch the bottom of their pfd -- it will be moving back and forth a lot. That's no guarantee that they are doing the right things under the spray skirt, but if the bottom of the pfd is not moving back and forth, they definitely are not rotating their hips.

Now, a pop quiz to see who's really understood the lesson. When paddling backwards, which side should you push your foot on -- same as paddle in water or opposite?

--David.

My guess is that you shouldn't be pushing with your feet at all when paddling backwards.

[Pintail]

LeonG wrote:

<Your legs add energy to the stroke. As you pull the right (left) paddle through the water push against the right (left) footpeg".

There is absolutely nothing else to say. The question and correct answer (above) has nothing to do with backbands, racing, hips, knees up, thigh muscles, rotation (you can an push with a straight leg without rotating), etc.>

Bravo!

[djlewis]

My guess is that you shouldn't be pushing with your feet at all when paddling backwards.

Yeah, maybe true, especially if you only paddle backwards for short stretches in special circumstances, like maneuvering to approach another boat or landing spot, in a cave or rock slot, etc.

But I like to practice what a lot of coaches recommend -- paddle backwards for at least 15-20-30 or more minutes of every trip, including turns, to keep your backwards skills sharp. I also gives your forward muskles a rest. Returning through Marblehead harbor is a great place for that. So you might be interested in efficiency when paddling backwards, and proper form becomes important.

In fact, there are a number of elements of forward stroke that translate into equivalents for backwards stroke, but not necessarily in the initially intuitive way. That's probably worth a whole nother thread.

But you still haven't answered the pop-quiz ;-))) Which foot should you press when paddling backwards? Hint -- think about how your hips would be rotating/squirming if you were doing the "right" thing.

--David

[EEL]

For totally different reasons I agree with Leon that this thread should cease.

That said a few comments.

I remain skeptical of the technique mentioned by Scott overall, but the sensation when using it is that it facilitates torso/hip rotation which seems quite illogical to me. Without controlled, empirical test results, I am not inclined to believe sensations any more than abstract arguments.

It is interesting that Greenlanders find the leg opposite the wet end of paddle the key to a strong stoke even though they too use strong torso rotation and leg action on the wet side of the paddle. Of course there is, on the surface, a considerable difference in "fit' of the traditional Greenland kayak and the kayaks most of us use.

If we were all to believe seakayaers' favorite odd uncle, Derek H., was the font of the one true way, then the contemporary techniques for using the GP would not be believed, let alone accepted by non-Grennlandic paddlers. So I see no purpose in slavishly if not blindly accepting the conventional wisdom.

Rotating the way you describe would give your torso a nice tight twist, but I don't think it would transmit the untwisting into forward movement all that well.

I believe this to be the only cogent comment made by the "naysayers" to the technique mentioned by Scott. As for the remainder; they remind me of the following:

"In the year of our Lord 1432, there arose a grievous quarrel among the brethren over the number of teeth in the mouth of a horse. For thirteen days the disputation raged without ceasing. All the ancient books and chronicles were fetched out, and wonderful and ponderous erudition such as was never before heard of in this region was made manifest. At the beginning of the fourteenth day, a youthful friar of goodly bearing asked his learned superiors for permission to add a word, and straightway, to the wonderment of the disputants, whose deep wisdom he sore vexed, he beseeched them to unbend in a manner coarse and unheard-of and to look in the open mouth of a horse and find answer to their questionings. At this, their dignity being grievously hurt, they waxed exceeding wroth; and, joining in a mighty uproar, they flew upon him and smote him, hip and thigh, and cast him out forthwith. For, said they, surely Satan hath tempted this bold neophyte to declare unholy and unheard-of ways of finding truth, contrary to all the teachings of the fathers."

Ed Lawson

[leong]

Lisa -- you have it exactly right. Foot pushing on the same side is correct because it promotes (rather than opposes) proper hip rotation (what you call a squirm), and hip rotation is where the power should come from.

Sorry to say this, but almost nobody I see on the water -- and this includes quite a few well-known coaches -- really has much hip rotation. Torso rotation, yes, but that's only because the shoulders and upper body are anatomically considered part of the torso. In fact, that's what most people think of as the torso. But it's really all in the hips, and the famous "torso rotation" formula should really be changed to "hip rotation". (If you rotate your hips, your shoulders will come along for the ride, or even add a bit -- but not vice versa).

So bottom line for most people -- if you don't rotate strongly from the hips, it really doesn't matter which side you push your foot on. That's how we can get these passionate opinions both ways -- from people who don't rotate their hips. BTW, to see on the water who's rotating their hips, watch the bottom of their pfd -- it will be moving back and forth a lot. That's no guarantee that they are doing the right things under the spray skirt, but if the bottom of the pfd is not moving back and forth, they definitely are not rotating their hips.

Now, a pop quiz to see who's really understood the lesson. When paddling backwards, which side should you push your foot on -- same as paddle in water or opposite?

--David.

David,

As I said before everything that Lisa said is correct (heck, I’m one of the gentlemen that taught her the racing stroke). But that’s not the point, David. The point is that some of what she and others have stated, although correct, have nothing to do with this thread which was to answer one and only one question … which foot peg to push on. Lisa, others and I have provided the correct answer. End of story.

But I encourage you to start a new thread about efficient racing strokes. I’d love to learn from you. An on-the-water class would even be better. I just got back from an 18-mile paddling workout (training for my next race) and I wish that you had been with me to critique my form.

You said “So bottom line for most people if you don't rotate strongly from the hips, it really doesn't matter which side you push your foot on.”

Sorry, but this is definitely not true. I hope that you don’t teach this in your class.

Leon (your potential student)

[leong]

I believe this to be the only cogent comment made by the "naysayers" to the technique mentioned by Scott. As for the remainder; they remind me of the following:

Ed Lawson

Is this (from post #31) cogent enough for you Ed?

"Instead of the imaginary paddle stroke pull on a post (pretend a post is planted into the floor) on your right side. If you pull hard enough won't your right leg and right hip slide forward? When you're paddling a real boat each stroke is like pulling one of a series of poles (a bunch of poles to the right and left of your boat)."

And I'm not even a friar.

[djlewis]

You said “So bottom line for most people if you don't rotate strongly from the hips, it really doesn't matter which side you push your foot on.”

Sorry, but this is definitely not true. I hope that you don’t teach this in your class.

OK, Leon -- you're clearly a far better forward paddler than I am -- not joking there. But I am still at a loss on that statement. If you don't rotate the hips, then it seems to me that your body below the sprayskirt is just a rigid, non-rotating assembly that transmits force as a unit to the boat -- you aren't pumping your legs and your hips are not squirming back and forth. In that case, it seems to be good to keep that rigid assembly pushing firmly against the pegs or bulkhead to transmit force efficiently to the boat. But I can't see it matters which peg that force is applied through since there would be little or no differential between the sides as the stroke progresses. In fact, it might make more sense to keep pressure evenly on both pegs.

So rather than mock me, I'd love it if you simply explain what you mean -- I am open to changing my mind. In fact, I will try it myself when on the water next -- stop hip rotation and observe closely how footpeg pressure works.

[leong]

OK, Leon -- you're clearly a far better forward paddler than I am -- not joking there. But I am still at a loss on that statement. If you don't rotate the hips, then it seems to me that your body below the sprayskirt is just a rigid, non-rotating assembly that transmits force as a unit to the boat -- you aren't pumping your legs and your hips are not squirming back and forth. In that case, it seems to be good to keep that rigid assembly pushing firmly against the pegs or bulkhead to transmit force efficiently to the boat. But I can't see it matters which peg that force is applied through since there would be little or no differential between the sides as the stroke progresses. In fact, it might make more sense to keep pressure evenly on both pegs.

So rather than mock me, I'd love it if you simply explain what you mean -- I am open to changing my mind. In fact, I will try it myself when on the water next -- stop hip rotation and observe closely how footpeg pressure works.

Oh no, David. This reminds me of the Godfather where someone always says “whenever I leave the family [this thread] I get pulled back in again”

Okay, no mocking of you; also, don’t mock the following oversimplified experiment:

Place a small rectangular box (for instance 3x5x1) on the floor against a wall so the 1x3 surface touches the wall and the 3x5 surface is on the floor. Now place a length of scotch tape on the right edge of the box and pull it towards the wall at a slight angle to the right (that simulates a right paddle stroke). Now, won’t the box rotate counterclockwise around a vertical axis and won’t the right edge of the box (a simulation of the right footpeg) press hard against the wall and won’t the left edge pull away from the wall?

Regarding hip rotation: In most sea kayaks with thigh braces it’s hard to get much hip rotation because there is no room to raise your knees. That’s certainly true in my Seda Impulse. Besides, the footpegs, as usual, are mounted on both sides of the hull so even if I could raise my knees it would be with splayed legs, and that wouldn’t be good for knee pumping and resultant hip rotation. But, I can assure you that I am able to rotate most of my trunk (but not as good as in a true racing boat).

On the other hand, my faster Epic 18X doesn’t have thigh braces so that problem goes away. And instead of footpads, it has a one-piece carbon platform that runs from one side of the hull to the other. So, using my 18X, I can do full rotation moving my butt and hips as I pump each leg at a time. And of course I push with the leg on the same side as the stroke.

Peace my friend. If this is our only problem then we don’t have any problems.

Leon

[glil]

please stop now that everyone is friends again...

[leong]

Now, a pop quiz to see who's really understood the lesson. When paddling backwards, which side should you push your foot on -- same as paddle in water or opposite?

--David.

Oh, I forgot to answer this. As with paddling forward, for backwards paddling you should push your foot on the same side as your paddle stroke. It's a robust and general answer.

[djlewis]

Oh, I forgot to answer this. As with paddling forward, for backwards paddling you should push your foot on the same side as your paddle stroke. It's a robust and general answer.

Wrong. If you're rotating your hips and pushing the pegs/bulkhead is part of that, then think about which way your hips should be rotating when going backwards. Here it is in detail...

Set up for right side stroke: rotate torso and hips to the right to plant paddle behind you on the right -- that extends your right leg (knee down) and flexes your left (knee up).

Execute the right side stroke: with paddle planted on the right, exert force forward -- hips rotate counter-clockwise -- left leg, which was flexed, straightens and left foot presses on left footpeg to transmit force to boat -- right leg flexes and knee rises -- hips are now wound up to the left, ready for a paddle plant on the left and the other side of the same process.

There you have it. But it's hard to do in practice -- I sometimes fall back into the same-side pattern just because it's... well... a habitual pattern. Of course, as you said, you may not want to bother with significant hip rotation/peg pressing when going backwards.

--David

ps to glil -- yes, friends again. But what's wrong with the discussion? It's a real kayaking topic.

[leong]

Wrong. If you're rotating your hips and pushing the pegs/bulkhead is part of that, then think about which way your hips should be rotating when going backwards. Here it is in detail...

Set up for right side stroke: rotate torso and hips to the right to plant paddle behind you on the right -- that extends your right leg (knee down) and flexes your left (knee up).

Execute the right side stroke: with paddle planted on the right, exert force forward -- hips rotate counter-clockwise -- left leg, which was flexed, straightens and left foot presses on left footpeg to transmit force to boat -- right leg flexes and knee rises -- hips are now wound up to the left, ready for a paddle plant on the left and the other side of the same process.

There you have it. But it's hard to do in practice -- I sometimes fall back into the same-side pattern just because it's... well... a habitual pattern. Of course, as you said, you may not want to bother with significant hip rotation/peg pressing when going backwards.

--David

ps to glil -- yes, friends again. But what's wrong with the discussion? It's a real kayaking topic.

I know what I know and know what I don’t know. Your quiz is in the second category. So, you might be right, but I'm not sure now. I'll check the next time I paddle. I solved this in my head and (perhaps) I made a mistake in my reasoning.

As an aside, for forward or backwards paddling, wouldn't it be ideal to have your feet connected to the footbar (footpegs) with toe clips like a road bicycle. Then you could push on one side and simultaneously pull on the other. Obviously, emergency wet exit’s need to be considered.

[leong]

I know what I know and know what I don’t know. Your quiz is in the second category. So, you might be right, but I'm not sure now. I'll check the next time I paddle. I solved this in my head and (perhaps) I made a mistake in my reasoning.

As an aside, for forward or backwards paddling, wouldn't it be ideal to have your feet connected to the footbar (footpegs) with toe clips like a road bicycle. Then you could push on one side and simultaneously pull on the other. Obviously, emergency wet exit’s need to be considered.

Oops, My bad. I don't have to go paddling to prove it. I just replayed my thought experiment and, obviously, you're right (push with opposite foot). I guess I wasn't fully awake the first time (or I don't know my left from my right).

[djlewis]

Oops, My bad. I don't have to go paddling to prove it. I just replayed my thought experiment and, obviously, you're right (push with opposite foot). I guess I wasn't fully awake the first time (or I don't know my left from my right).

Easy mistake to make -- that's why it's such a good question to test understanding of the principle. When a friend and I first worked it out, we were on the water and tried the various configurations for several minutes before totally convincing ourselves of the correct answer. Congrats to you for getting it in a thought experiment! I know one very prominent coach who got it wrong and could not admit to it in my presence.

Now, try it on the water with a good long backwards paddle. If you are good at simultaneously rubbing your stomach and patting your head, you might perform it flawlessly from the get-go. But it took me a while, and I still occasionally trip up.

But of course, those racing boats are probably squirrely as heck going backwards, right?

As for pulling on toe clips -- I don't think kayaking has a perfect cyclic stroke, the way bicycling does. In a kayak, there is actually some forward force exerted by both feet, just a lot more on the one that is extending. So I think pulling on a toe clip on the unextending foot one would make more of a yawing force than a propelling one. But this is going to really take some on-water experimentation to be sure. I just tried it on the floor and I don't feel conclusive about it.

--David

[lhunt]

As an aside, for forward or backwards paddling, wouldn't it be ideal to have your feet connected to the footbar (footpegs) with toe clips like a road bicycle. Then you could push on one side and simultaneously pull on the other. Obviously, emergency wet exits need to be considered.

Don't laugh, it has been done! Called a "pull bar", here is a picture (with a tiller bar rudder control). I don't see it working with a gas-pedal rudder - you can only do so much with your feet.

I'm on the theoretical "it would work OK" side, since I try to take my foot off the footbar during the windup anyway. I think all you would use it for is to help you rotate your hips, not for propulsion.

But I mention this just for interest, not as a proponent.

[subaruguru]

Lis,

Just a quickie: I had a fitness Kayakpro JET with a OE "pull bar" attached ahead of its footrest plank. I assume this setup is prevalent for these types of kayaks?

See ya in the sunlight.

Ern