Brian Nystrom

The zips that kokatat currently uses in their Gore-Tex suits are rated for immersion. I would assume that the ones used for Motorcycle gear isn't rated for.

Suz

I would agree with that, but there's no reason that a heavier-duty version couldn't work for dry suits. Perhaps they're working on one. It would be nice to have an alternative to the heavy, stiff, bulky toothed zippers we now use.

It's ironic that it will become available right around the time it becomes illegal in MA.

It sounds like stomping on someone's foot to cure their headache!

Not familiar with MA legislative process, but given the way they were passed in both chambers it seems extremely likely a bill on this subject will be enacted by both chambers and the only question at this point is what provisions will it contain.

Ed Lawson

If the process in MA is anything like it is in Congress, the two bills will go to a committee where the differences will be ironed out, then the final bill will be re-submitted for a vote in both houses. That means there may still be an opportunity to defeat it. One thing's for certain, if any version of this passes, there will be more to come, both for kayaks and other paddle craft. The kayak registration proponents will probably look upon it as an opportunity to ram their bill through as a means to pay for enforcement of this stupid "safety" legislation.

Brian,

Do you think my idea of rolling over, then sculling to resurface, get a breath of air and while sculling get into the right position to roll up (probably with a layback) ... do you think my idea is feasible?

If yes then I was thinking this would be a useful skill especially when one gets knocked over in big waves and runs a risk of getting knocked over again at the rollup. It might be better to resurface, check things out and roll up at the right time... ;-) I'm just brainstorming here ...

What Ed said!

Another variation of this is the "back flop", which is used when you get knocked over by a wave when you're not in the position to set up to roll. You literally turn your back toward the water and flop on the surface. This stops your rotational momentum and allows you to go right into sculling at the surface. I've sculled on the surface in really rough conditions and it's very stable and comfortable. However, there are always risks when you're hanging around in a bad place, so getting back up reasonably quickly and moving out of danger is the best bet.

However there is still a serious danger of shoulder injury with using the extended paddle, particularly if one hasn't learned to use the torso in combination first. The chances of this happening are strong since the Pawlata has so much leverage and can get you up by itself. The GP is a different story: The way it is used is much safer and does rely on torso pressure and laybacks. It would be very hard to come up using the GP with upper body muscle alone, which is why it is safer.

Perhaps your vision - or version - of the Pawlata roll is different from mine, but the only real difference between it and the standard Greenland roll is the paddle. Both have an extended paddle, forward start, a sweep and a layback finish. In both rolls, you can also stop a the surface and scull, should you be so inclined. Neither one requires any hip-snap or muscling of the boat, so I don't see where a shoulder injury would be likely.

I have seen people treat it like an extended paddle C-to-C or screw roll, which can put strain on the shoulders, though it probably stresses the paddle more.

Last weekend I was getting the on-side C-to-C (as well as the off-side) in the Dagger...

Therein lies part of the problem. IMO the C-to-C is one of last rolls I would ever teach anyone, as it's very timing and technique dependent, and therefore harder to learn. It's standard fare for whitewater paddlers - and the main roll whitewater instructors teach - but it's neither necessary for, nor all that frequently used by sea kayakers. It doesn't work well with a loaded touring boat, either. The strong hip-snap required is difficult for many people to master and impossible for some.

My feeling is that getting some to roll as soon as possible is key to confidence and long-term rolling success. To that end, I strongly suggest starting with a Pawlata roll or standard Greenland roll, both of which use an extended paddle and a layback finish. These rolls are easier to learn for most people, don't require precise timing or a hip-snap and are gentler on the body. For many rollers, these are the "fallback" rolls that they rely on when other rolls fail. Learning them first allows one to work on other more advanced rolling techniques without having to suffer through wet exits every time a roll fails.

I also strongly recommend learning to roll with an unfeathered paddle, as it makes rolling on both sides simply mirror images of each other. Once you have the mechanics down on both sides, it's much less difficult to add in the element of feathering and adjust your technique for it.

A similar report was done for Maine "Paddle Sport fatalities 2000 - 2007"

During 2000--2007, a total of 38 paddle sports fatalities in 37 incidents were identified in Maine. Twenty-nine (76%) of the decedents were Maine residents; eight were residents of other states, and one was a resident of another country. Paddle sports fatalities amounted to 46% of the 82 total boating deaths during this period in Maine (Figure). Twenty-two (58%) of the 38 deaths were associated with canoes, 12 (32%) with kayaks, and four (10%) with rafts (Table)

It would be very interesting to separate whitewater kayak deaths from sea kayaking. In a state like ME where whitewater is popular, I'll bet that they majority of deaths occurred there and that's likely true for MA, too. Not that I want to split the kayaking community, but the legislation in MA is aimed primarily at sea kayaking. If we can show that it's even safer than whitewater, it just takes that much more out of their argument.

The timing of this bill is also interesting, as it seems to be designed to catch the kayaking community off-guard. Who would expect kayaking legislation in October? The people driving this are probably counting on weariness and inattention on the part of kayakers at the end of the season. This may be a last-ditch attempt to ram this thing through and if it's defeated again, it may be the end. This is not the time to give up the fight.

Even moreso than before, this is completely unenforceable, as there are no state resources to do so and the Coast Guard won't enforce state laws. Consequently, kayakers will be relatively unaffected, but outfitters are really going to take it on the chin. In a climate where politicians are trying to spur retail sales to get the economy going, this bill is utterly counterproductive. That's just one more point to add to the existing arguments against this legislative stupidity.

Are either of the above able to test a dry-top for leaks? I really don't know that any of the seals are the problem. ...or more specifically, I want to be sure that it is getting fixed, rather than just worked on.

If you think the fabric may be leaking, you'll need to send it back to Stohlquist for testing. If it's a Gore-Tex garment, it should be covered under warranty. With other fabrics, you may not be so lucky, but they may cover it depending on the nature of the leak(s).

I like the idea of sizing the wrist gaskets if those are what it needs.

I wouldn't get my hopes up too much about finding the perfect size. Although there are a range of sizes available, if you have a neck over 16" or wrists larger than 6", you're probably going to need to trim your seals. I don't know why people get so worked up over this, as it's no big deal to trim seals, which you probably already know from your experience doing so.

I'll put in a vote for being super cautious with contact cement . Some of it is highly combustible so if tempted to bring it in the house basement I would turn of the furnace or furnace pilot light. If Upstairs I would turn off the pilot light in the stove if it has one.

....same with any elec element that glows red hot ...

Unless you're in a very small space with no ventilation and you're using a lot of cement, that's seems excessive.

There is also low odor contact cement but I don't know which is the most prefered for what you want to do.

I've tried it; it's junk and won't hold worth a damn.

Brian,

I'm not disagreeing with you but just wondering. Kevlar cloth and Fiberglass cloth appear to be just that - cloths. One lays the cloth and then mixes up epoxy resin and then wet the cloth...when the job dries we sand and probably wet again and then do a finish...

That is in my layman's understanding how it goes. I built a wooden boat with fiberglass once...wondering what the difference would be with Kevlar cloth.

The reason I said that fiberglass would be easier is that it tends to conform better to curved surfaces. Other than that, there's not much difference.

And also wondering whether one can lay fiberglass cloth over kevlar layup or vice versa?

It makes no difference. As long as the resins are compatible, either way will work.

Thanks - I'm always appreciative of your expertise. I believe you might have helped me with my wooden boat eons ago at the kayakforum.

P.S. Thanks for you previous tip about surform tool. I got to work with it in the past 3 days and it's a blast.

Glad to help!

Is there any particular reason you used Kevlar? This repair could be done with fiberglass, which would be simpler, easier and just as effective. BTW, when doing jobs similar to this where the reinforcing fabric tends to lift or curl, simply cover the repair with clear packing tape. It compresses the repair, which not only holds it in place, but also helps to optimize the compaction of the laminate. Once the epoxy cures, you simply peel off the tape and remove the adhesive residue with lacquer thinner, before sanding, painting, etc. Packing tape will NOT work with polyester resin, which will soften the tape. You would need to use cloth tape of some sort or put a sheet of polyethylene between the repair and the tape.

Hi, Brian:

Thanks for the great analysis. So that's what the fragment of black plastic tubing was.

What do you recommend for fixing it, now that the original, somewhat misconceived apparatus has failed? It seems pretty tight just stuffing the sheathing down into the skeg box opening. But I guess there will still be small leakage, and always the possibility that it will pull out. Perhaps a combination of some kind of goop (what do you recommend?) for the leakage, and solid taping (what kind of tape?) to keep it in place?

Thanks. --David.

You might be able to find a replacement fitting at a hardware store or home center; check the plumbing department. All you really need is a new black sleeve, but then again, you might not. It's possible that the fragment that broke off was just the top flange, which really doesn't affect the sealing. If you push the tubing into the fitting and it won't pull out easily, you're probably OK to just leave it as-is. I would suggest coating the fitting and the tubing with 3M 5200, Lexel or GOOP, to help hold everything in place and seal any small leaks.

It might be possible to replace the current fitting with one that uses a brass compression ring, but without seeing the boat, I couldn't say for certain. I'd also want to test the setup with a piece of scrap tubing and cable, to make sure it wouldn't cause binding.

Does anyone know what NESC and CRCK get for round Valley hatch covers? I need to replace one that spontaneously self-destructed.

The way those fitting are supposed to work is that you insert the tubing, then pull back on it slightly and the black plastic collar wedges tightly between the tubing and the fitting forming a seal. It probably works great on systems that are under internal pressure (it's a plumbing fitting), but it seems that the push-pull environment of a skeg cable is not ideal for keeping these fittings together. It seems to me that the best bet for long-term durability would be to seat the tubing properly when the boat is new, then goop the joint to keep the parts in place. The piece of black plastic you found is sure to be part of the sleeve. Whether it's a critical part is hard to say without seeing it.

This is another case, much like the skeg cable itself, where parts designed for one purpose are used for something entirely different, with predictable limitations. It would probably be better to use standard compression fittings, as once the brass ring has compressed on the tubing, it can't come loose. However, that would require that the fitting be anchored to very solidly to the skeg box, which is seems most aren't. It also reduces the inner diameter of the tubing slightly, which might cause the cable to bind. But that's what you get when you use plumbing fittings in a cable system.

You could install a backband or pad the rear bulkhead and leave it loose enough that you don't engage it until you're all the way back in the seat. Set your footpegs so that your legs can straighten with you feet more or less vertical. That will allow you to relax when you want to, but connect firmly with the thigh braces simply by bending your knees and flexing your feet forward. You could also remove the foot pegs and pad the forward bulkhead, leaving room to stretch between the pad and/or use multiple foot positions.

I've heard that Kerry who owns Suncook Canoe and Kayak in Barnstead N.H. is supposedly bringing in a new Drysuit from Britian. What supposedly will be different on these suits is that they will have just one zipper that will run up ones' inseam, under the crotch and down the other inseam. You will pull the top on like a sweater, then step into the legs and zip. Because the zipper runs under the crotch, it will also give you your bathroom relief option.

That's an interesting approach. Any other details about these suits, such as what type of fabric they're using.

My VERY limited experience is that they pretty much ask strangers to go away. I found no enthusiastic hospitality and was left with the feeling of a closed, private club. Emilie and I have been driving up to Maine to scratch the Greenland itch we've been developing.

As with any organization, there are differences in personalities among them and it's not always the same people there every session. I would strongly suggest that you give it another try. Just approach them and introduce yourself as folks who are interested in learning Greenland skills. Even if you already did that, give it another shot. While there may be an air of elitism to some of the people there, I've always found them to be a very welcoming organization.

One can obviously scull from the C-C recovery position, but frankly, that's doing things the hard way. It's much easier to turn your back to the water and gain some buoyancy. If I know I'm going to capsize, I turn my back to the water as I go over. When it hits, it momentarily stops the capsize and I can immediately start sculling slowly for support while lying comfortably on the surface of the water. I have even stayed in that position in rough water a few times to see what happens and it's an incredibly stable position even in waves, as long as you keep your back to the water and arched.

I think this debate really comes down to a fundamental difference in philosophy between the Greenland school and the Euro school (as taught by the ACA and BCU). The Euro school is focused on keeping the paddler OUT of the water, a practice that probably has its root in whitewater paddling, where staying upright is critical to safety, as there are all manner of nasties lurking just below the surface. That's why it's commonly referred to as a "sculling brace". Greenland paddling is all about working WITH the water as effortlessly as possible, which definitely has its roots in hunting, where avoiding excessive exertion and potential exhaustion or injuries from it were paramount for survival. There is little to fear from the water on the open sea, so staying out of it simply isn't as critical as conserving energy. In Greenland parlance, this is always referred to as "sculling for support", never as a brace.

In the end, it really comes down to the individual paddler deciding which method works best for them for a particular situation. For example, I would undoubtedly use the technique I describe above on open water. However, if I was playing in a rock garden, I'd be much more inclined to try to stay out of the water, for obvious reasons. Perhaps a good determining criteria for me would be whether I'm wearing a helmet or not, or SHOULD be wearing one.

Both methods have their place and they're definitely not mutually exclusive.

Brian:

When gluing the minicell under the deck for the pump, what kind of glue do you use?

As Bob said, contact cement works well and you'll need at least two coats on the foam and one on the boat. I clean both surfaces with lacquer thinner prior to applying the cement. I prefer to use Weldwood's gel contact cement, as it won't run or drip as liquid cement can.

The harmony bilge pump width is ideal to fit behind my seat in the cockpit. The bilge pump is covered with foam sleeve on the outside. I thought perhaps placing the bilge pump in front of the seat might be a good idea. I'm just brainstorming here...I can't really test it but I was wondering what your opinion was about it?

It depends on your intent. If the idea is to use the bilge pump as support for your legs, I'm not sure how well that will work. If it's just for convenient storage, it should work, but you have to make sure that the pump is well secured, as having it rattling around in the cockpit or losing it during a capsize/wet exit would be a safety hazard. There are several ways to store a bilge pump, with the most common being:

- Behind the seat

- Between one of the cheek plates and the hull

- Under the foredeck

You can see some of these in my Webshots albums at:

http://community.webshots.com/user/brian_nystrom-reg

No big deal - it's just that sightings have an uptick this time of year, presumably because they're chasing fish south and a lot are out there. Can't a person be an observer of nature?

Don't take it personally John; I'm just tired of the endless media hype over things that really aren't news.

For every shark sighting, there are probably hundreds, if not thousands that go unseen. They're always out there and they don't bother us, so what's the big deal over a sighting or two?

That's what bench grinders are for.