Brian Nystrom

I am curious if you would expect there to be any issues with the plastic parts cracking in weather cold enough for Rick Crangle to be wearing a hat.

That's probably irrelevant, since at that temp the water would be solid, so paddling would not be an option.

Regardless, the plastic is Nylon, so I doubt that there would be any issues with it.

Whoopee! Thank you, Brian, for the review/trial: where can we buy them? Is online the only way?

The best price I've found so far for the 8" covers is $23.32 (part number 746080) here:

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/google/custom.htm?vp=182931

Do you still want my old Valley hatch covers?

While there's not a lot of point in repairing Valley covers now that the Sea Dogs are available, I am still experimenting with it.

I tried the new 8" round Sea-Dog hatch cover for the first time this weekend and here are the results:

Pro's:

- Pops on easily - Just push down firmly in the center and it pops on with distinct snap, so you know it's sealed. The semi-rigid Nylon center will "oil can" when you do this, but that just makes it easier to install the cover. If it concerns you, a firm push around the edges or a moderate whack with your fist will also seat the cover. A bit of 303 on the inside of the cover helps it pop into place easily.

- Unlike Valley hatches, it's either fully on or off, no guessing or partial sealing.

- Comes off easily - Even at 40 degrees, it comes off without any major effort. No more ripping your fingernails out by the roots when trying remove your Valley hatch covers!

- Seals perfectly on Valley hatch rims - I had no leakage at all.

Con's:

- The holes in the tether tab are rather small and won't accept more than 3/32" cord, but that's easily remedied by drilling them out if necessary, as there's plenty of material there.

- Sea-Dog covers don't float, so you must tether them.

The bottom line:

I can't think of a single good reason to ever buy another Valley hatch cover. The Sea-Dog covers are easier to install and remove, seal well, do not stiffen significantly in cold weather and should be much more durable. On top of that, they're around half the price of Valley covers. Game, set and match to Sea-Dog!

Sea-Dog has introduced a line of hatch covers that fit Valley and Kajak Sport round and oval hatch rings (they sell them with rings, too). I just received one of their 8" Valley covers and it looks really good and fits well. It's a rigid, gloss black Nylon cover with a molded to a rubber base and edge. The underside of the edge is tapered, so you can just slap it over the hatch ring and press it - or whack it - down to seal. It has both internal and external tether points, which is important because it definitely will not float. Price-wise, they're cheaper than Valley replacements (the best price I saw was $32.50), but they're not widely available yet and the price may come down once there's some competition. Regardless, they won't rot out like Valley covers, which makes them a great deal and eliminates a huge hassle.

I haven't had the chance to try it out, but I'll report back once I do, perhaps next weekend.

http://www.sea-dog.com/PDF/745170.pdf

EDIT: I just found the 8" covers for $23.32 (part number 746080) here:

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/google/custom.htm?vp=182931

Duckworks has the hatches with rings for $33.12

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/canoe...hatch/index.htm

FWIW, I've had MUCH better results with Naproxen (Aleve) for inflammation relief (tendonitis, bursitis). Aspirin, Ibuprofen and Acetaminophen do very little, but Naproxen provides fairly rapid pain relief and typically kills the inflammation entirely within 48 hours. To prevent any GI issues, you must take it with food. Doing that, I've never had any problems with it.

I haven't tried their other fabrics or garments, but one thing I really like about the items I have (a union suit and a short-sleeve crewneck) is that they are cut for aerobic athletes, not ball players. Their background seems to be based on x-c skiiers, so that doesn't surprise me.

Yeah, the fit is really nice and the incredible stretch in the fabric makes sizing less critical.

The interesting thing is that if I wear the union suit for hiking with only a pair of shorts over them, they feel cool, not warm, and that's on a medium-temp kind of day like in the low 60s. They must wick any perspiration very quickly. But throw a windbreaker or light layer over them and they're wonderfully warm and dry.

That makes sense. The same would be true under a dry suit.

When I hand-wash them, they don't appear to absorb much moisture. Maybe they're made of polypropylene.

The under layers I have are their ZERO garments and the tag says 100% polyester. One piece I have that they don't show on their website is a sleeveless top. I find it's really great under a bike jersey or when I just want to add a little core insulation for other activities.

It's not only damp inside, it makes peeing harder.

That may be the single best reason not to wear neoprene under a dry suit!

If your lower body is chilled, try more layers that breathe. The fastest-wicking material of all I have tried is Craft's ribbed synthetic. I don't know what they call it now, but it's their original underwear material. Very light, stretchy, and fast to dry. The ribs create more air space under the next layer without adding lots of bulk or weight. They cut it to fit very close to the body, like Lycra, so it draws sweat away from the skin by full contact.

I've got some of their stuff and it's very warm for it's thickness, to the point that I have to reduce my insulating layers when wearing it. I also have a few other pieces of their cycling and X/C ski wear and I'm really impressed with it.

I don't know about others, but agree with Peter. The only time you get cold is when you are not paddling and the worst by far is when you are putting boat on the car and tying it down.

What I've found is that getting out of the dry suit is the key to getting warm once off the water. When I peel mine off, my under layers dry almost instantly (the humidity formerly trapped in the suit "flash dries"). While this can be slightly chilling, I just throw on a windproof jacket, a dry hat and dry gloves (as opposed to "drygloves") and I'm warm and comfy.

Thanks for confirming that. I didn't think that a VB could change the bodies ability to sweat if there was sweat accumulated.

It only works for insensible perspiration and it's primarily an issue with dry environments. Your body will try to maintain a certain humidity level at the skin and if the ambient humidity is low, you perspire slightly in an effort to raise the humidity. A vapor barrier traps moisture, so when the humidity next to your skin reaches the desired level, insensible perspiration stops. This helps to reduce dehydration in dry climates, but since most moisture is lost through respiration, I really wonder how much difference it makes.

This is completely different from sweat produced for cooling purposes during exercise, which flows no matter what. Interestingly, one of the early proponents of vapor barrier clothing, Synergy Works, also introduced the first pit zips as a means of venting excess moisture from their vapor barrier garments under high-exertion conditions. They were also pioneers in mesh underwear (worn under vapor barriers for comfort and insulation), pile clothing and waterproof/breathable fabrics, though few people have heard of them, as they went belly-up in the early '80s. I still have one of their pile jackets. Here's a blurb on them for anyone who may be interested:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7N8DAAAAM...ing&f=false

Suz, while I picked up on your one comment about wool being damp inside a dry suit, I somehow missed all the praise you heaped upon it otherwise. Sorry about that.

Rick,

Yeah, the neoprene idea might not work. Are you saying neoprene's insulating properties aren't working when dry?

That sounds like what he's saying and even it it's not, it's worth mentioning that this is a very common misconception about neoprene. The truth is that dry neoprene insulates better than wet neoprene and the layer of water that a poorly fitted wetsuit allows in reduces its insulating ability, it does not increase it. Wetsuits provide insulation despite the fact that they may let in water, not because of it. The insulation is provided by the gas trapped in the bubbles in the neoprene. The closer the fit of the suit and the less water seepage it allows, the better. That's why garments like the ubiquitous "Farmer John" provide very poor upper body insulation compared to a full wetsuit.

Getting back to the original questions:

Is your dry suit made of breathable fabric? If so, why would you defeat the purpose of that breathability by wearing a vapor barrier garment or neoprene (which is is a vapor barrier, too) underneath it? It makes no sense. If your dry suit isn't breathable, wearing a vapor barrier against your skin - if you can stand the feeling - will keep your insulating layers from getting wet, which is a real problem in non-breathable dry suits.

If you're wearing a vapor barrier and you're working hard, you are going to sweat and get soaked, though how bad it will be varies from one individual to the next. My understanding of vapor barriers is that they're most effective for sleeping in cold conditions, as they prevent insensible perspiration from getting into the insulation of a sleeping bag and condensing, where it can dampen the insulation and even freeze, reducing it's effectiveness.

Vapor barriers are pretty much an "old tech" solution to a problem that was largely solved by the introduction of wicking fabrics and waterproof/breathable outer garments. Pick whatever works for you, but mixing "systems" isn't a good idea, IMO.

I'd also like to make on comment regarding Suz's criticism of wool. I've worn wool and synthetics from head to toe and I've found that while I like synthetics for my upper and lower body, wool works better for me for my hands and feet (inside dry gloves and a dry suit, respectively). Synthetic fabrics just seem to flatten out and lose their insulating ability in these applications.

They also make tough "leading edge" tapes for propellers, and now windvanes, that are uv resistant. Anyone try these?

Yes, I have used leading edge tape and other than the fact that it has the most tenacious adhesive I've ever seen, I'm not impressed with its durability when used as a keel strip. Leading edge tape is designed primarily to provide resistance to airborne sand. It's a relatively soft material that resists sand abrasion by absorbing the minute impacts. It does not stand up to rocks, barnacles, boat ramps and other hard/abrasive surfaces. In other words, it's a lot less durable than gelcoat. It shreds quickly and you're left with mess on the hull that adds drag and is difficult to remove. I've pulled a bunch of chunks off of the boat I tested it on, but eventually I'm going to have to try to get the rest of it and the adhesive off, a chore I'm not looking forward to.

I have seen two types. Some use a cord with a plastic tubing sheath to keep loop stiff. Others just use a section of 3/16' or 5mm rigging/climbing cord which is relatively stiff, form a loop between RDFs near the bow, and size the loop according to what is needed for the paddle to be slid in and out at the bow easily when under bungees near cockpit. I go with the latter, and I would not suggest using any type of bungee cord for at the bow although some do with a bead or two to make insertion easier.

Using a ball or two on a cord loop is a good idea too, as it makes it very easy to get the paddle under the loop.

I am considering adding these to my kit as emergency hatch covers. Does any one have any experience w/ them or other suggestions

Palm makes neoprene emergencyhatch covers.

this might be what he uses.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/116/3568

i haven't tried this but it sounds like a good idea, without the drag that velcro would give (FWTW). UHMW polythene is the stuff they use in super strong sailboat ropes.

Did you notice that it says "Use indoors, unless noted"?

My only annoyances with the Velcro stem from trimming the "puckers" at sharp radius turns, and the theoretical increase in drag.

The other issue you'll have with Velcro is that in cold temps, the adhesive will separate completely from the hook side. I had this happen on several occasions when paddling in the winter. I haven't had any problems with the loop side, but it's woven Nylon which provides much better purchase for the adhesive.

So one of these days I'm going to try the 3M gray flooring gripper stuff, which should have less drag but maybe even better abrasion resistance?

I haven't tried it in that application, but I have used it for other purposes. The adhesive is pretty tenacious and should adhere well on a fiberglass hull, but I can't say whether it holds well to the textured surface at low temps or not. The tape does not conform well to compound curves, but you could try heating it during application to see if that helps. Worst case, cutting darts in it at the bow and stern would probably be fine.

btw. while I have packed light for some trips but I completely understand bringing everything along, even a collapsable kitchen sink! I've brought a tent, a hammock, and an emergency shelter on a single overnight trip. Besides since I have a 10" outback oven and a GSI camping wok I am not allowed to criticize!

I seem to recall that the understanding within the club was that if someone needed something on a camping trip, you probably had two of them.

It's a good thing you paddle big boats with a lot of room in them!

Brian! Yes, I see that now.

EXACTLY my point! Question: When is a gas a liquid? Answer: It's <not>! Oh, except in America when...

"White gas" is short for "white gasoline".

I do not understand your question, Spider, re transporting liquified gas. Surely you carry it in the cans in which it is sold? Liquified gas is liquified gas. Unless...no, surely not?

Christopher, I think he's referring to white gas/spirits, which is a liquid.

I've been mighty tempted to put the gas in dromedary style bags but haven't given it a try yet. Any body know of of a collapsible method of carrying gas ? Haven't asked on the hiking forums yet, but not that interested in canister stoves or alcohol burning stoves.

Unless you know the exact materials used in the dromedary bag, I wouldn't do it, as white gas will damage rubber and some coatings used to waterproof fabrics. Also, keep in mind that once you put gas in it, you won't be able to use it for water again. White gas can be safely carried in polyethylene or polypropylene containers and you may be able to find some that are collapsible.

One important consideration is whether your stove requires a fuel tank that can be pressurized. If it does, plastic containers - especially something thin enough to be collapsible - are out of the question.

I don't really see much of an advantage to collapsible fuel containers. Aluminum bottles are available in several convenient sizes and are very light weight. A collapsible container would be the same size when full, so it would take up just as much space at the start of a trip, so what difference would it make if it got smaller as the trip progressed?

When trying to save space on a trip, it makes more sense to address the bulkiest items, such as sleeping bags/pads, tents, clothing, etc. before moving onto smaller items where space savings would be minimal.

There's a question that I'm surprised that nobody has asked:

Why were you carrying so much gear - or such bulky gear - that you couldn't fit it all in your boats? A typical sea kayak has far more capacity than the largest backpack that most people would use for multi-day trips, so except for the gear that you actually want on deck, it should all fit inside.

Does the "120 pounds of gear and food" that you each carried include the weight of the boats? If not, that's an absolutely insane amount of weight!

As a person I used to camp with once told me, the two most important words to know when it come to packing are "pare down".

The seller has offered to come down and take a look and bring more decals, alcohol (rubbing) and Windex. Um, "protectant" as in 303?? Yup, once a month...

That's probably the issue. Polyethylene is somewhat porous and will absorb whatever you put on it (that's why it's used for ski bases, it absorbs wax well). Removing the 303 completely could be a challenge.

Thanks, Brian. I wish the seller had stated that bit of wisdom...

Looking at her site, she does show decals being applied to plastic boats, so perhaps there is another issue. Have you ever used a silicone-based wax or protectant on your boat? If so, silicone residue from that may be the culprit. It can be removed with some effort and the right solvent, but decals that are contaminated are not likely to work.

You can also try contacting the decal seller and explaining the problem you're having. Perhaps she's run into it before.

Hi all,

Time for the silly question of the day... So, I purchased some really cool kayka decals and set about applying them this AM. The ones for the paddle went on without issue. The two I selected for my boat won't stick. I have a plastic Valley Avocet. I methodically followed the prep instructions to a the letter. Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts?

The answer is pretty simple; nothing much sticks to polyethylene. Unless your decals have a very aggressive adhesive - which they apparently don't - they're not going to stick.

I'm going to take the liberty of giving you one of Peter B's from his Nordkapp which presently resides in my shop. The day hatch cover pretty much disintegrated as you described.

Send me a mailing address Brian and I'll get it to you.

Jon

Thanks Jon. My address is:

Brian Nystrom

337 Broad Street

Nashua, NH 03063

If anyone else would like to send me a "gift", they will be gladly accepted.

Thanks folks. I'm probably going to be in the Ipswich area over Labor Day weekend, so if you're going to be around, perhaps I can swing by and pick up your "discards"?