Brian Nystrom

In a situation like this, heat is your best friend. You didn't specify whether you used epoxy or polyester resin. If it's the former, if heating the area to ~100F for a day doesn't cure it, it's not going to cure and you'll just have to scrape it all off and start over. Use a space heater or a work light as a heat source.

The same is somewhat true of polyester resin, but it will eventually cure over time. One other important thing to understand about polyester resin is that most common types will not cure in the presence of oxygen; that is, they need to be sealed off from air. This is typically accomplished by covering the area tightly with polyethylene or Mylar, or by spraying the area with PVA (polyvinyl alcohol), a liquid wax coating. If you don't seal the surface, the resin underneath will cure, but the surface will remain tacky. In this case, you can scape off the gooey surface and see if the the resin/glass underneath is hard.

There are also "waxed" polyester resins available that will cure in the presence of air. They contain a wax that migrates to the surface and seals it. When the time comes to apply gelcoat - a form of polyester resin - you want to use "finish" or "waxed" gelcoat, for the same reasons.

BTW, you may notice that I said "scrape" rather than "sand" above. Sanding won't work on partially cured resins, it just makes a gooey mess and wastes sandpaper. The best tool I've found for working with fiberglass and resins is a carbide scraper with a 2" wide blade. Bahco makes a really nice one for ~$20.

http://www.amazon.com/Bahco-America-650-2-...r/dp/B0015YNI3G

Their fix looked pretty simple: a small square of GoreTex tape (the kind all GoreTex garmets use for seam sealing) was applied on the INSIDE of the leak. I'm not sure how this tape is applied, but I believe it involves heat (sort of like an iron).

The tape is applied with an iron. It's available from online outdoor fabric suppliers.

If you don't want to deal with the time and cost involved in having Kokotat repair it, you can certainly DIY. If it's a simple abrasion and the surface fabric is not cut or completely abraded away, applying a good sealant like Marine Goop or Aquaseal is enough to fix it. If you choose Goop, use only the Marine version in this application, as it contains UV inhibitors that the other formulas lack. If the area is likely to be abraded repeatedly, I would suggest covering it with a patch of Cordura or other heavy Nylon fabric, attached with either sealant. It will no longer breathe, but as long as the area is small, it doesn't matter and having a durable waterproof repair is more important.

I have no valid opinion on subject, but I have seen long threads somewhere about the value or non-value of the drop seat version for women. Seems some prefer the "regular" front relief zipper and find the drop seat zipper uncomfortable and difficult to use. I assume some women in the club have opinions on that.

This seems to be a personal preference item. Linda loved the drop seat in her first dry suit and ordered one in her new dry suit as well. She has no problems with it in any of her boats (Pintail, Anas Acuta, SOF)

I called them Chris and they told me they had dry tops not suits--does this make sense--I am looking at the Meridian

They definitely had dry SUITS the last time I was there. If I get a chance, I'll swing by and check today (it's less than a mile from my house). What they had were the GFER suits (Gore-Tex Front Entry) with ankle seals, rather than socks. They also had the semi-dry (neoprene neck) suits with socks (I forget the model name).

(I'm going to jump in for Brian Nystrom et al on this one and say) they should be responsible for their own safety. (perhaps - arguable issue) they should be fined for going out without PFDs on a lake when they couldn't swim the relatively short distance to shore.

I agree with your first point, but I don't see how you could fine them unless PFDs are required to be worn by adults. OTOH, what kind of morons put PFDs on kids, but not on themselves, knowing that they can't swim or re-enter their boat? What were the chances of any of them surviving if the other boaters hadn't arrived in the nick of time? Chances are that in addition to both of the adults drowning, the kids would probably have died of hypothermia. Given that, perhaps charging them with "child endangerment" would be appropriate.

Having taken a better look at the skeg box issue, I don't think goop is going to do the trick. The tubing is too short and very tight through the middle of the stowage space. The result is that whenever I pack the boat it is going to get pulled out of the skeg box fitting again. I don't think even Lexel is going to prevent that.

After looking at your photos, I agree with your assessment. However, you can probably fix this yourself. Similar plastic tubing is available at Home Depot and other home centers in the plumbing department. You can buy a longer tube and install it, then install a longer cable to match.

Arm-chair critiques of rescue situations that assume people were ignorant or made mistakes are a way to believe that we could have done better, and that it could have been prevented. We don't like to face that sometimes you can have all the right judgment and skill, do everything right, and bad things will still happen to you.

Maybe these kayakers were ignorant and foolish, or maybe they were just like us and their environment was more powerful than they were for a moment. We can mostly go along believing we have control of things if we just know enough and practice enough, but remaining aware that it's not entirely true helps us make safe judgments.

Florrie

Obviously, I was speculating and attempting to be somewhat facetious, but the fact that there was no mention of the rescued paddlers having either boats or paddles with them really makes me wonder how well they were prepared skills-wise. There was also was no indication that the conditions were particularly challenging. Then again, it could just be the the report is incomplete.

My point was that safety on the water requires judgment, skill and proper gear. Missing any of these results in problems.

I agree

I confess, I leave mine in the hatch a great deal of the time, and I am unrepentent about it.

Then why bother to carry it at all? My experience has been that when you really need a radio, you need it NOW and you don't often have the option of going fishing in a hatch for it. Should the worst happen and I get separated from my boat, I want the radio with ME, not the boat.

Experienced to me means someone who has done something for awhile. It says nothing about how well they do it or how knowledgeable or skilled they are although those qualities are often erroneous implied by the word.

Excellent point!

To me relying upon a VHF radio clipped to a PFD for communication/safety in lieu of exercising some basic group paddling skills and judgment is just as misguided in some ways as relying upon a cell phone.

Ed Lawson

Who said anything about a radio being a substitute for skills or judgment? It's backup equipment, just like PFDs and dry suits.

I agree with Gene. In terms of cost/benefit, is there a downside to having a VHF radio available?

No, there isn't; a radio is nothing but beneficial. Aside from it's main use for communication, it can also provide weather updates, which can be important when summer thunderstorms are popping up.

FYI: Yesterday Boston Harbor Rescue

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_...ayakers_pl.html

Bob

<musing about pre-launch discussion on the beach>

"PFDs?"

"Check!"

"Dry suits?"

"Check!"

"Cell phone?"

"Check!"

"Rescue skills?"

"We didn't have time for that, remember?"

"It's a nice day, we'll be fine. Let's go."

I'm glad that this potentially deadly situation turned out OK, but it does highlight the fact that while proper gear can be a life saving backup, there's no substitute for skills and judgment.

Good thing they were within cell phone range...

I am interested in getting people's opinions about the good and bad of a thermoform kayak. The material sounds like a great compromise between the sluggish (and heavy) rotomolded and the faster, lighter but more delicate and expensive composite.

What makes you think that rotomolded boats are "sluggish" and composite boats are "delicate"? Neither one of these things is absolutely true. There are some well-made rotomolded boats that are good performers (P&H, Valley, etc.) and plenty of very rugged composite boats on the market.

Compared to rotomolded boats, thermoformed boats have the advantages of lighter weight, generally greater stiffness and ease of repair (many adhesives work on thermoformed materials, unlike on polyethylene). Compared to composites, their only real advantage is cost.

To quote Brian "oily lubes will pick up sand". I also had heard from other channels that OIL is a bad idea...

...and vegetable oil is an even worse idea than petroleum-based products, as it will become gummy over time and make an even bigger mess. I'm all for being "green", but only where it makes sense.

Platypus' new "Big Zip SL" hydration bladder still uses a zip, but it's much better than the original "Big Zip". It's easier to open and close, and has a plastic clip that slides over it and keeps it closed. They changed the material and the shape so there are no more sharp corners that eventually crack/leak and collect slime growth. The quick disconnect hose makes for convenient cleaning and it's interchangeable with hoses from other brands. I prefer the more flexible, larger diameter hoses that Nalgene uses and they interchange just fine.

What's the appropriate lubricant to apply to the skeg slider & cable?

I think that Brian said that one shouldn't use silicone but I don't recall what I should use.

Thanks -Jason

No, silicone lubricants for cables are fine (though not very durable), it's using silicone sealers for sealing leaks that I warn against.

For best results, you should use a cable lube that's dry, rather than oily, as oily lubes will pick up sand and create a real mess. Keeping the cable clean is more important than lubricating it, so anything that tends to attract sand or create a gunky mess is to be avoided. Bicycle lubes like "White Lightening" (original formula), Krytech and similar wax-based products work well. If you have the cable out of the boat, you can also just rub it with paraffin wax.

Although I do lube my skeg cables when I service/replace them, it's probably more important to just run some fresh water through the system periodically to remove salt buildup and flush out sand.

It's a bit hard to tell from the photos, but the first one looks like structural damage to me. It appears that the glass has been crushed and the resin matrix has failed. The easiest way to tell is to push on it with a thumbnail; if it gives at all the glass is damaged and you need a structural repair. In the second photo, it appears that the gelcoat has completely flaked off the surface of the glass or perhaps there was an air pocket there. It's unusual to see gelcoat come off that cleanly, but the fact that the glass is clear indicates that the resin matrix is undamaged.

As for who should fix it, I strongly recommend going with someone who works on kayaks specifically. General boatyards could fix a kayak, but they're not used to working on thin-skinned vessels. The tools, materials and methods they use are all geared toward working on thick, heavy hulls. I have yet to see a good kayak repair done by a general boatyard.

I agree with Suz and Scott. Bungee should never be used for structural applications, as it's neither strong enough nor durable enough.

I rather like the epoxy/vacuum approach, but another simple option is to drill the holes out oversize, fill them with epoxy, then re-drill correctly sized holes. This is the way it's done in wood boats in order to make sure that the edges of the wood aren't exposed.

As an aside: the G/flex epoxy (West System) would be an excellent choice of adhesive for hatch rims. Slower cure and remains somewhat flexible.

I wouldn't recommend any epoxy for this type of repair, as it makes it much more difficult to remove the old rim and adhesive should the hatch rim ever need replacement again. Flexible sealants can be cut by working a thin wire or cable between the rim and the deck and "sawing" one's way around the hatch rim. You can't do this with epoxy and it may even necessitate cutting and grinding away the old hatch rim. Since epoxy doesn't really bond the rim to the deck any better than a product like 3M 5200, I don't see any point in using it. Epoxy is best in structural applications, like bonding your broken coaming back in place as you described in your other thread.

That's a very creative approach; I like it!

I used 5200 for installation. -Yes I did have to bolt down the new hatch rims in the same place that caused the initial problem. Caliper clamps were not holding satisfactorily and 5200 takes days (like a week) to dry. If anyone plans to bolt these rims down you should know there is little room for error and you should purchase a counter sink drill bit to avoid splitting the rims while trying to counter sink the bolts (only millimeters away from having to order new rims again).

If you use screws to install the new rim - something I don't recommend - you must be VERY careful not to over-tighten them. That's the reason that the hatch rims split in the first place. The screws should only be tightened enough to pull the rim into the sealant completely.

Rolling on "your off side" has a lot to do with your head. All the advice above is excellent, and you might want to think of the roll as being "on the other side". Other just sounds better than off.

I agree with Deb that there is a huge mental component at work here. I strongly suspect that most people would learn to roll on both sides faster if no one mentioned the terms "on-side" and "off-side" to them and they were simply instructed to work on both sides.

I've also found that one of the biggest obstacles to learning to roll on both sides is using a feathered paddle. Feathering creates left-right side asymmetry and blade orientation problems that don't exist with an unfeathered paddle. Learning both sides with an unfeathered paddle is a good first step and is often easier, since the left and right side techniques are exact mirror images of each other. Once you have a solid roll on both sides, you can feather the paddle and work on the differences. Breaking the learning process into manageable chunks like this can really help.

Think about shading the work area. The heat and sun can prematurely cause the epoxies to "kick". Sometimes they get very hot and melt plastic containers. I can't say if glassing is more or less an issue than gelcoat.

The only time epoxy will get hot enough to be a problem is if you mix it in a fairly large quantity in a deep container like a cup. If mixed in small quantities and/or poured into a shallow container (like a pan) that exposes lots of surface area, it's not a problem.

Gelcoat generates some heat, but not much.

For best results, you really want to work in temps above 60 degrees. You can do that by heating the repair area with a lamp or electric heater.

I find Lexol difficult to locate, nowadays -- neither of the Very Big Hardware superstores seem to stock it (and I do need some to re-seal the foam-block bulkheads of my old plastic Skerray).

Where do you suggest I look, Mr. Nystrom?

True Value hardware stores carry it, as do some specialty paint stores. There is a dealer locator on their website at www.sashcosealants.com/Home_Improvement/Lexel.aspx. It's under the "Consumers" heading.

Bob and Kevin are both correct.

A gap around the edges of a bulkhea is normal, as the bulkhead is held in by fiberglass tape that's bonded to both the hull/deck and the bulkhead panel, on one side only. If there is indeed a gap in the resin that allows water through, the best way to fix it is to clean the area (water first to remove salt residue, then a solvent like lacquer thinner to get the surface chemically clean), then coat the area with epoxy. There is no need to fillet the gap between the bulkhead panel and the hull, just make sure that any cracks or thin spots in the tape are filled.

If you prefer, you can use a sealant like Lexel, GOOP (any of their products will work), 3M 4200 or 3M 5200. You can get these at hardware stores, home centers and marine suppliers. DO NOT use silicone sealer! It bonds poorly and it leaves a residue that prevents other materials from bonding.

As Bob mentioned, you should vent your bulkheads to eliminate pressure differences between the compartments. Although it sounds counterintuitive, putting a small hole (~1/32") in your bulkheads will reduce the amount of water that seeps in. I suggest positioning it roughly in the center of the bulkhead or slightly above.

OS Systems (www.ossystems.com) sells neck seals in several sizes, all of which allow for a generous amount of trimming if necessary. They run on the small size, as even their XLarge is very tight on my 17" neck. Linda has a slender neck (~12.5") and she needed a Medium, which fit without trimming. The quality of their seals is excellent.