Brian Nystrom

Based on experiences I had with the club, including being involved with the original "trip leader training" program, I'm of the opinion that there should never be less than two qualified leaders/guides in any group and that a ratio of 3:1 participants:leaders is about the safe limit. Beyond that, things can get out of control very easily. It's amazing how much of a burden a single paddler who's sick, injured or incompetent to paddle in the prevailing conditions can become to a group, especially if towing and supporting the paddler is involved. If you have multiple issues at the same time, an inconvenient situation can turn dangerous in a heartbeat. I've experienced that firsthand on what should have been a pretty benign trip where 6 of the 8 of us were trained trip leaders. We handled it, but if one more thing had gone wrong, we'd have been calling the Coast Guard.

I guess the bottom line is that the lower the skill level of the participants on a trip, the higher the number of leaders/guides needs to be. That's why I cringe when I hear of a single guide taking 5 or more beginners out on trips. All it takes is an unexpected change in conditions (such as a thunderstorm) and even a relatively flat water trip can go completely out of control.

Cathy,

Beware, the wind chill temperature can be lower than the NWS table indicates, especially for kayaking. That’s because the formula doesn’t account for wet clothing or wet face and the duration of a person's exposure to wind.

- Leon

Keep in mind too that wind chill can be negated by proper windproof clothing. The key, as always, is dressing properly for the conditions. It's surprising what conditions one can endure comfortably when properly dressed.

If you want to see what can happen when there's a lot of ice about and the conditions are just right (a rising tide to float the ice that's on the beach combined with an onshore wind), check out my Ice Trip album at: http://community.webshots.com/user/brian_nystrom-reg

The bottom line is that we were blocked by the ice ~1/4 mile from the put-in. Take my word for it - as someone who was dumb enough to try - there is no way you are going to get a kayak through wind-packed sea ice! We ended up paddling downshore about a mile until we found a sheltered cove where we hauled out on someone's yard (the owner was home - and was a kayaker himself - and we asked permission). It was a long trudge in dry suits to get the cars...

I hope that you find a new location to host them, many people have learned a lot from your pictures/comments. Placing them on the NSPN photo gallery is an option.

At this point, my plan is to finally build a site on a domain I've owned for years, briannystrom.com. That way I have full control over the content.

See my "Gelcoat Repair and Restoration" album on Webshots:

http://community.web...ian_nystrom-reg

You may want to do this soon, as Webshots is going away in a month or so and I'm going to have to find a new home for these tutorials.

A better bet than using foam is to bond the seat pan to the hull with Lexel or one of the GOOP products. The problems with using foam are:

1 - It will compress and wear through over time

2 - Any sand or grit that gets under it will become a grinding paste that will accelerate the wear on the hull

If you are going to use foam, you need to bond it to the hull, or both the hull and the seat, in order to prevent #2 above.

I'm truly saddened to hear that, as I'm one of the countless people that Derek inspired to take up sea kayaking. I have very fond memories of paddling with him and sitting in on his famous story-telling sessions. No one could spin a yarn like Derek!

Derek was a unique individual and the consumate showman. His contributions to the sport have been huge and he will definitely be missed.

Fair winds and calm seas, Derek...

I can say the paddle is quite secure under my decklines (and bungies - I wonder if that helps?), but again, not tested by waves. Sounds like I need to get out in some waves and give it a try!!

Once you get into "textured" water, I think you'll be much less impressed with the paddle float rescue. It's one of those techniques where the more likely your are to need it (the rougher the conditions), the less likely it is to work. In truly rough water, it's useless. However, the paddle float can still be used with a float-assisted re-enter and roll, which will work in rougher conditions. However, no self-rescue technique is as effective as not exiting the boat in the first place, which is where bracing and rolling skills come into play.

Having observed lots of folks -- and myself -- fail and succeed at rolling, I can say with come confidence that it is easy for some and hard for others -- how's that for profundity! But for most of those who have trouble, I really don't think it's a matter of talking themselves out of something inherently easy. Some people are just better at it for a variety of reasons, mostly to do with athleticism, movement and motor skill, body-mind coordination, etc. You do understand, Brian, that there is a very wide range among human beings on these and other body-mind skills -- just because it was easy for you does not mean it can be easy for everyone. So have a little compassion for those who have been working on it for a long time -- and maybe offer them some of your expert instruction!

Of course it's not going to work for everyone, just as not everyone will have a great forward stroke or any other skill. There are many things that I don't do particularly well and I consider myself a "passable" roller, no more. My point is that rolling is not some arcane skill only for "expert" paddlers; it's well within the grasp of most people who are willing to make the effort to learn. It doesn't require expensive equipment, professional instruction or any substantial degree of athleticism. It just requires dedication to learning a progression of skills, all of which are very useful on a regular basis, even if you never learn to roll. These can be learned at club events that cost virtually nothing.

Many of You guys are far too sophisticated and yes, elitist for us common folk. The best training and expensive gear work well. Try to remember that, in spite of your best efforts and expenditures, you are still just all very vulnerable human beings. Sound like "sour grapes"? Perhaps, but my ignorance is accurately bliss when it comes to much of this forum.

Wow, where did this come from? We were having a very respectful and - I hoped - illuminating discussion.

I have no idea what you mean by "sophisticated" and I absolutely reject your insinuation of elitism. We were discussing ways to learn and teach a basic skill and hopefully help others who may be interested in learning, or who may be struggling with learning. What is "sophisticated" or "elitist" about that?

Regarding equipment, I did all of my initial learning to paddle, brace, roll, etc. in a Walden passage, a 15' x 24" wide plastic boat with high fore and aft decks. I had a $75 fiberglass paddle, a spray skirt, a PFD and a wetsuit. In other words, my gear was about as run-of-the-mill as it gets.

In terms of instruction, I learned all of my basic skills from fellow NSPN members of the day, specifically Adam Bolonsky and Jed Luby. This cost me nothing more than the price of a club membership and the cost of gas to get to the skills sessions. It did require effort and practice, but the payoff was well worth it for me.

The club offers a wealth of knowledge and assistance if you're willing to take advantage of it, but that choice is up to you. I don't believe I know you, but I suggest that if you haven't made a commitment to learning paddling skills, you may not be aware of how much additional fun you're missing. OTOH, if you're happy with the status quo and you're having a good time, that's great (though your post seems to indicate a level of frustration). After all, having fun on the water is the bottom line, isn't it?

Brian, you really ought to tell folks here -- most of whom don't know you and have never seen you paddle -- that you use a Greenland paddle. It really is important context.

While you're correct that I currently use Greenland paddles, I learned to roll using a Euro paddle. In fact, I still have that paddle, though it's been collecting dust for years.

Now if you wanna argue that the standard layback, extended-paddle greenland roll is no easier than the standard spoon paddle sweep or c-to-c rolls, then I think you will be on shaky ground.

No, I'm more interested in an apples-apples comparison. Also, the C-to-C is the last roll I would ever try to teach a beginner, regardless of paddle type. Forcing a beginner to start with a roll that requires precise timing is a recipe for failure. You have to walk before you can learn to run. Yes, thousands of paddlers have learned the C-to-C as their first roll, but I don't see the point in adding unnecessary difficulty to the learning process and risking discouragement caused by failure.

If, however, you compare the greenland roll to the pawlata or to a simulated greenland roll with a spoon paddle, you may have something. IMHO those rolls are almost as easy as the greenland roll, but not altogether.

That's somewhat hard for me to say, because I knew how to roll before I even tried a GP. However, I do feel that rolling with a GP is easier, provided that you're using appropriate technique. When swept or sculled, GPs provide tremendous lift, which makes them ideal for sweep rolls of various types. OTOH, they're definitely not best suited to some commonly-taught rolling techniques, like the C-to-C.

It's unfortunate that, perhaps because of the whitewater heritage of spoon paddle rolling, those techniques are not taught as much as they might be.

I absolutely agree. I would also argue that the other major whitewater-inspired carryover to sea kayaking - the feathered paddle - is something that needs to go the way of the Dodo. IMO, it's largely responsible for the entire range of "on-side, off-side" problems that beginners experience when bracing, ruddering and rolling. However, that's a "Pandora's Box" for another thread.

BTW, how is your spoon paddle roll these days?

The world may never know...

When did you last try one? When did you last have a spoon paddle in your hands while in a kayak?

That's a good question. I believe the last time I actually used a Euro paddle was on a California vacation when we rented gear to paddle in Elkhorn Slough, in Monterey. I can't find the photos from that trip to get the date, but it may have been a decade ago.

However, as I said above, I learned to roll with a Euro paddle and it wasn't hard; it was just a part of a progression of skills. Over a period of a few weeks after I began paddling (and discovered NSPN skills sessions in Walden Pond) I learned to low brace, then high brace, then deep high brace where I went completely under before coming up, which is effectively the final part of a roll. At that point, all I needed to learn was the, setup and sweep. On the day that I decided that I was going to learn to roll, I worked with another paddler (who's name I never knew) for 30 minutes or so, until I started hitting rolls in shallow water without his assistance. I did my first solo roll within an hour of hitting the water that day. I don't mean this to sound like bragging, but rather to point out that when done methodically, learning to roll is not hard. It's just one skill building on another until it all comes together.

FWIW, I've met one person who actually learned to hand roll before he ever tried rolling with a paddle. In his case, it's what he was taught and he didn't know the difference; he just did what his instructor showed him. I think this anecdote really highlights the psychological aspect of learning to roll. This guy never had it instilled in him that hand rolling - or ANY rolling - is difficult, so he just did it. Similarly, when I was teaching Linda how to ride a mountain bike, she did some things that I would have hesitated to attempt, simply because she didn't know that she wasn't supposed to be able to do them. This is why I object to discussions of "good/bad" or "on/off sides", or statements about rolling being difficult. It poisons peoples' minds and breeds acceptance of failure. Worse yet, it also discourages many people from even making the attempt to learn. That's truly sad, as rolling is a gateway skill that really expands one's ability to perform on the water, which just makes paddling that much more fun.

While the sweep roll ... it is still difficult to learn and even afterwards subject to losing it without frequent practice.

It really pains me to see statements like this, as it's simply not true. Yes, some people do struggle with learning to roll and portraying rolling as some difficult, arcane skill just makes it more likely that one will fail at it. If you believe it's hard, it will be hard and building it up to be some "big deal" just makes it worse. Rolling is just another paddle skill, like bracing, ruddering and sculling. It's not a big deal and it requires no more practice than these other skills do. When taught as part of a logical skills progression (low brace, high brace, deep high brace, roll), it can be easy to learn.

If you are struggling with rolling, I feel for you, but please don't project that onto other paddlers by perpetuating the myth that rolling is difficult.

As for rescues, I agree with your assessment.

A short tow should be very simple and quick to deploy. Mine consists of two carabiners joined by a cord that gives me a total length of 3'. I use a simple coiling method to keep it out of my way and clip it to a cord that runs across my foredeck. That way, I can grab either carabiner with either hand and reach to either side of the boat. It's very simple, very compact and very effective. I also have a short tow on my Northwater rig, which I made by attaching the tow rope a few feet down it's length and running the end out the side of the bag. It gives me another option, though I don't think I've ever used it.

Guinness is a bad joke, since they only recognize people who apply for "record" status and they do no independent research. For example, they gave British TV hostess Helen whatshername credit for the longest kayak trip by a woman for her drift down the Amazon with her camera crew, completely ignoring the fact that Freya Hoffmeister and others have done much longer trips. You really cannot rely on Guinness for anything except amusement.

I thought it might be of general interest to add what Jen Gleck says about feathering. She’s America’s first BCU Level 5 Sea Kayak Coach (I’ve rented kayaks from her at her at Aqua Adventures business in San Diego). Here are her words (I think consistent with what some of us have been saying):

It might be an interesting exercise to consider that whitewater boaters certainly have the most reliable off-side rolls in general. Whitewater boaters paddle feathered (w/very few exceptions). They also have very reliable braces on both sides. If we're talking about reliable skills in kayaking, I think the bigger issue than feathered or unfeathered is practice and use of the techniques. THAT is what makes skills dependable, not the equipment. Whitewater boaters need to brace and roll every time they paddle. Many sea kayakers actively avoid conditions in which they might have to brace or roll. These skills go unpracticed and it doesn't matter what paddle you use! The key is repetition until bracing/rolling becomes part of muscle memory and becomes instinctive.

This is absolutely true; there is no substitute for practicing and using skills.

For this to work, you must be committed to a "control hand" that does not shift position.

Unfortunately, this is complete nonsense if you're paddling unfeathered. Like many people who paddle feathered, she apparently doesn't get the fact that if you paddle unfeathered, you don't need a control hand.

As long as your control hand is stationary on the shaft, your body will learn exactly how to move so that the blade is flat for braces and rolls - but only with repetition! In addition, during all this practice, you will develop a feel for pressure on the paddle blade and your body will begin to figure out how to rotate the blade until the desired pressure is achieved - all without thinking about it.

However, when applied to a feathered paddle, it does make sense.

On the other hand, the right equipment can go a long way towards promoting good technique (though it can never replace practice). That's why at Aqua Adventures we use and teach with feathered paddles because we feel it promotes the most efficient paddling style - hands at eye level, lots of torso rotation, short stroke from toe to hip blade close to the boat.

Again, she apparently doesn't understand that you can do the exact same things with an unfeathered paddle. There is nothing magic about a feathered paddle that improves one's technique. If they try to force everyone into the same paddling style - which is what the quote implies - I think it's unfortunate, as that simply doesn't work. Any good coach knows that.

One question -- may generate controversy -- I've never understood why people consider it so important to wash the kayak inside and outside so thoroughly. Seems to me that all the materials in a kayak are extremely corrosion-resistant, and it would do fine even if it never got hosed with fresh water. Is that true?

I'm with you on that one. We rinse the boats off and/or out at the takeout, only if there's a specific need to do so, but it's always with the same water we paddled on. Unless you're dealing with sand, seaweed or similar contaminants, washing a boat is a waste of time as it doesn't accomplish anything. Once it a while, I'll flush a skeg cable with fresh water, but that's about the only time I do anything to remove salt.

The rest of our gear gets thoroughly hosed off when we get home and line dried. When we paddled in the winter, I hung the gear in the shower and rinsed it there. I installed a towel bar on the ceiling in the shower specifically for that purpose.

Leon,

You and I are actually using the same definition of "control hand", i.e., one hand that controls the paddle blade angle at all times, typically the paddler's dominant hand.

Jason tried to explain my "no control hand" technique in a different way, that the hand nearest the water controls the angle of the blade and it alternates back and forth on every stroke. He's probably found, as I have, that some people find it easier to visualize having alternating control hands than no control hand. It's two ways of looking at the same concept. Tomato, tomawto, so to speak.

As for your question about feather angle and stroke angle, I'm not sure how to interpret the recommendation, but my suggestion would be to use whatever paddle angle lines up the blade properly with the water for the stroke angle you use. I strongly suspect that there's too much individual variation in physique, flexibility and technique for someone to say that you must use a certain feather angle with a particular stroke angle. While matching the two angles in question may work perfectly for the person suggesting it and it may be a good starting point, that doesn't mean it will work for you. If you've found that a 52 degree feather works best with your technique and equipment, that's all that matters. There's certainly no reason that you can't experiment to see if perhaps something different would work better, but I wouldn't stress over the fact that you're doing something different from another paddler, no matter how accomplished they may be. Unless they can produce a study of a statistically significant number of paddlers that shows that matching the angles is always the most efficient setup, I would treat the recommendation and just that, a recommendation. Assuming a high level of competence in technique, real-world experience with one's own body and gear trumps generic recommendations every time, IMO.

I would say that he's correct for paddling with a control hand, which he indicates with his reference to "the angle of the control arm". If you don't use a control hand, there is no control arm and therefore no angle to be concerned with.

Again, it's a case of matching the technique with the paddle.

Generally, I like the idea of not getting into a rigid formula , but more letting the feel of the water on my blade tell me how to guide it into and through the water.

This is really the key. Except in rough conditions where you need firm paddle control, there's no need to grip the paddle. Doing so may force it into inefficient angles and create unnecessary strain on your body. You only need to allow your hand to wrap around the paddle loosely and naturally. At the top, you push with a "dead" hand and at the bottom, you pull by hooking the paddle with your fingers. There's no gripping at all, which is not only very relaxing, it pretty much eliminates wrist problems.

Leon,

The answer to your original question is quite simple, you're you're trying to use technique that was developed for feathered paddling with an unfeathered paddle; specifically a "control hand". With an unfeathered paddle, controlling the angle of the paddle with one hand will result in exactly what you experienced, the offside blade will be at the wrong angle for the stroke.

The solution is equally simple, don't use a control hand. An unfeathered paddle does not need to be gripped and controlled by either hand at any point in the stroke. However, it seems that many - perhaps most - paddlers who start out paddling feathered have a very hard time with this concept, as the control hand becomes so ingrained in their technique (as it should). As they say "old habits die hard" and you actually have to consciously not grip the paddle until it becomes a natural part of your stroke.

Interestingly, switching from a wing or Euro paddle to a Greenland paddle seems to ease the transition. I imagine that's because you can't use a control hand with it and it requires other technique adjustments, so relearning all aspects of the technique happens more readily. Once the technique becomes natural, it's easy to apply it to any paddle.

Another interesting tidbit is that if you hand a beginner an unfeathered paddle, they'll never experience the offside angle issue, because the control hand is a learned technique that's only applicable to feathered paddles.

Match either paddle with the appropriate technique and they both work. It's when you try to apply the technique for one to the other that issues arise.

Unfortunately I am well aware of how thick the deck and hull gelcoat is on my Quest...several thumbnail sizes "chips" with the glass mat exposed, but nothing structual. Does anyone know something about using liquid styrene to prep the existing gelcoat immediately prior to applying the repair product? One of my son's is a plastics engineer and he is looking into it. Styrene is apparently an important component of the resin, and applying it to the old cured resin makes for a much better bond with the new. Also, obtaining the liquid in less than a 55 gal drum is not easy.

Tom

I wouldn't worry about finding styrene for two reasons:

1- It's unnecessary. Clean the existing surface with lacquer thinner, acetone, toluene, MEK or any other solvent that doesn't leave any residue and you'll get a good bond. Products based on polyester resin (like gelcoat) bond well to each other.

2- Styrene is extremely toxic. You really don't want to mess with it.

I'm glad to hear that you found my gelcoat repair album useful. Since your boat has thick gelcoat on the deck, you may want to consider wet-sanding it to restore the color before (or after) doing your repairs. It's a lot of work, but it will look great and you may even sand off a few ounces.

You might check with P&H to see if they sent you a "waxed" gel coat. If not you should order some Mold Release to spray on top of the gel coat to allow it to cure.

What you're looking for is called PVA mold release spray. West Marine usually has it.

If you need some instructions, you can check out my "Gelcoat Repair and Restoration" album here: http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/107841735XmwxIb

One thing you can count on is that the color is not going to match on the deck. The gelcoat on a Surge is too thin for the aggressive sanding technique I show on an Anas Acuta, but you may be able to achieve some degree of color restoration using Dolphinite or a similar mildly abrasive product.

The volume/on-off knob progressively gets stiffer and stiffer to turn and it eventually freezes... I do wash it in the sink after each use. After it gets very stiff I soak the control in a product called “Salt-Off” which helps, but the stiffness returns in a few weeks.

Like it or not, that's just normal maintenance for any radio that's used without a bag. All I do with my radios (Icomm M88 and M1V) is rinse them in fresh water after use and when the knob(s) start to get stiff, I wet the area, turn the radio upside-down (so water won't work it's way past the seal) and work the knob back and forth until it moves freely. Sometimes, it takes rinsing the knob area two or three times to get rid of all of the salt buildup and return it to normal operation. It takes less time to do it than it's taken me to type this, so I don't consider it a burdensome chore.

If you want to reduce the salt buildup, you could try to work some liquid silicone into the area around the knob. If the knob is removable, take it off and apply a ring of silicone grease where the shaft meets the O-ring.

Which model is only 25 lbs.?

A few years back, I saw a carbon-kevlar P&H boat (Capella?) that was around 25#. It may have been at NESC, but I'm not sure.