Efficient slow forward stroke

[josko]

I've been working on my forward stroke and am starting to 'see the light' when moving at a good clip, which for my Bahiya is faster than about 4 knots. However, I'm at a loss when paddling slowly, say with a group out for a mellow destination paddle. Below about 3.5 knots, I start loosing efficiency; my leg pushes generally go away, torso rotation drops, arms aren't quite as straight, blade angle starts to drop, etc.
Can anybody offer insight on what an efficient forward stroke looks like when moving at a slow speed?

[...]

Josko,

Facinating issue you raise. It is important that we all stay together for group safety on the water, yet we can differ in our on-water boat speed, particularly if we paddle different length boats. Last summer I posed this question to John Carmody while visiting Boothbay. Apparently both he and Todd Wright had discussed this isse at length since they had seen the end result of poor group cohesion and/or poor paddling form. The suggestion to me was to try not to pull on the forward stroke as hard. Keep good form, but use a lighter touch. I frequently use this approach and it does work for me most of the time.

Warren

Edited July 19, 2013 by Warren

[rick stoehrer]

meandering about isn't about efficiency, is it?

i slow the cadence and just don't put much power into the stroke while trying to keep the rest of my mechanics solid.

...and lots of talking. takes your mind off the fact you're going so slowly - keeps the group together, etc.

come to think of it, i spend a fair amount of time going backward or turning around, etc....lots of other things to do well in a sea boat besides go forward, fast.

[leong]

You can employ efficient forward strokes while reducing your average speed. Just take long glides, like this

[bob budd]

Aside from reducing cadence and effort consider practicing more esoteric strokes, paddling backwards, and doing the odd roll. Also a good time to practice with the storm paddle.

[rick stoehrer]

See? I didn't think of that!

Josko, just use a greenland paddle; using a popsicle stick would slow you down sufficiently as to not present a pacing problem for most groups, let alone using an shorter popsicle stick.

Don't know about efficiency but slow? Yeah, they've got it covered.

In the inimitable style of Sheldon Cooper - Ba-Zinga!

[MPARSONS]

Even in a relatively cohesive group there is going to be a front and a back of the pod. If you are in the front and having trouble slowing your cadence, you can always turn around and paddle back to talk to the folks in back. When the coversation with them lags you can accelate back to the front to talk to those folks for a while. If you keep moving to different parts of the group you will paddle a longer distance than those who didn't and you may need your faster cadence to do so. By "touching" each member of the group periodically (or even frequently) throughout the trip It has the added benefit of allowing you to gauge how everyone is doing.

[josko]

Rick, I've never understood the greenland paddle thing; tried it, and still don't get it... but that's a separate thread. -

My question is really: if one were to settle into a nice 3 to 3.5 knot cruise in our typical sea kayak, what should the forward stroke look like?

[MPARSONS]

I believe the stroke should look identical, but not use as much effort. I believe your form can get sharper at slower speeds because you are not exerting yourself as much. In any sport when you work on your form you slow things down a bit.

I think this is a case where there is more than one correct answer, though. Some people may have different strokes for different situations and I doubt there is anything wrong with that.

[rick stoehrer]

I know Josko...I was just tweaking the twiggers...I don't get it either but to each their own and some of them are downright graceful with those rolls.

Again, I think it looks like your regular stroke only slowed down with an extended glide and less power (although THAT gets old fast - keeping paddle/shoulders up while slowed down is a DRAG) OR just move about the group chit chatting away.

[Gcosloy]

Seems like a good problem to have-I wish I had this problem. My problem is that independent of whatever paddle I employ I don't get above 3-3.5k average speed. While none that i paddle with have a problem with that, there is a phenomenon that has occurred which may deserve some discussion. Occasionally we're all out for a mellow paddle and the wind and sea state changes: big rollers, some breaking, occur. My stronger companions may feel more comfortable increasing their stroke and energy, while I am still at my limit. I've never found that increasing speed has been necessary to cope in that situation or even represented a safety issue-slow and easy does it and it works for me. However if you are faster and employ some of the techniques to stay together, particularly, stopping or reversing direction, you may feel more at risk. Psychologically, the faster paddler may feel more secure digging in and paddling at 4k than he does at 2.5 or 3k, but is he physically safer? Anyone care to comment?

[djlewis]

You can employ efficient forward strokes while reducing your average speed. Just take long glides, like this

You can also put in a bit of glide on every stroke, rather than a lot of glide every third or fifth stroke as in the video.

We can discuss where in the stroke to put the pause and exactly how to do it. I like the most wound up point, with the paddle poised to move forward toward the next catch. That's a normal place for a momentary pause anyway, as everything is naturally changing direction -- you just extend the pause from instantaneous to as long as you want. At that point, there's also less temptation to lower the paddle and lounge with it, as in the video -- which uses the other direction-changing point. That drop/lounge, IMHO, is not such good form and may burn in bad habits.

--David

[rick stoehrer]

speed = safety.

being faster and stronger rarely hurts. being able to just MOVE a boat can get you out of a lot of trouble. the ability to paddle UP and OVER larger water can't hurt you.

in short, fast is good!

[NateHanson]

I'll add to the above, that the ability to go slow, or stop in rough conditions is also good. I've run into a couple paddlers who can only feel comfortable in rough water by keeping moving forward. This has sometimes resulted in that paddler sprinting ahead without regard for group cohesion, because that paddler doesn't have the comfort in rough water to just sit still, or manuever around a bit while others catch up or deal with a problem.

So, I'll agree - the ability to speed up is good. And so is the ability to slow down, even when the conditions are bad. Practice sitting still in a tide race or similar rough conditions, without doing a lot of paddling or bracing. See if you can get comfortable just hanging out, looking around, checking on others, etc.

[lhunt]

OK, I think I have to cop to it, when going slowly I don't use as good a stroke as when going fast. Rotation not as pronounced, with less shoulder in it. Putting in that extra bit of twist at the end feels too meaningless. OK, I guess just meaningless like calisthenics are meaningless...

Probably my fast stroke would get better if I practiced it ALL the time, but one has to enjoy life a little, too.

I like Leon's video, but that guy is still going a lot faster than we do sometimes in a big group. It's when going much slower than normal that the difficulties really set in. Also, I find that resting with paddle down is not necessarily a great choice in rough water.

Josko is asking just about speed, but I find this issue really comes to the fore in conditions. It can be hard to go very slowly in conditions unless you actually practice it.

Just realized you other guys are thinking the same way - will have to learn to type faster!

-Lisa

[rick stoehrer]

correct, i am NOT SAYING you dust your compatriots...just that the ability to have a turn of speed can be a very, very helpful thing and makes a lot of other things much easier.

[leong]

I've been working on my forward stroke and am starting to 'see the light' when moving at a good clip, which for my Bahiya is faster than about 4 knots. However, I'm at a loss when paddling slowly, say with a group out for a mellow destination paddle. Below about 3.5 knots, I start loosing efficiency; my leg pushes generally go away, torso rotation drops, arms aren't quite as straight, blade angle starts to drop, etc.

Can anybody offer insight on what an efficient forward stroke looks like when moving at a slow speed?

A few thoughts because I don’t think this subject is well defined.

It’s not completely clear what we mean by the efficiency of a forward stroke. One possible definition is the ratio of the useful work performed to the quantity of energy expended. Digging deeper, say the useful work performed is just the speed of the kayak. An efficient forward stroke will propel the kayak at a given speed for the least amount of energy expended. As we all know, an efficient forward stroke is related to form which consists of many parts: locking the blade at the catch (minimal slippage), pull through, pumping with the legs, torso rotation, etc., etc.

Besides form, there is also the speed of muscle contraction as it relates to power. For each person, Hill’s Equation of Muscle Contraction says that there is a natural speed of contraction that maximizes power output for a given level of input power used.

So, the efficiency of the forward stroke for a given paddler is related to cadence as well as form. But form is more important.

When you paddle significantly below your natural cadence your form tends to degenerate, it sure does for me (it’s also true when I do all-out sprints). Anyway, I think it hard for anyone to paddle way below his or her normal speed without their form suffering.

I don’t think that there’s a single answer to Josko’s question. But I think that an extended glide will allow you to hold fairly good form while slowing you down without too much loss of “efficiency”. Do an extended glide after each stroke to slow down as necessary. You can always do figure 8’s around the pod to keep your form and still lower your average speed forward. On the other hand, if you’re paddling much slower than your natural speed is it really necessary to paddle efficiently?

The subject of paddling way below your natural speed in heavy conditions is another subject completely. I guess it takes a lot of practice to keep a reasonable form while paddling very slow when you’re bouncing around in big chop.

I had the opposite problem in the last Mayor’s Cup race while going through the very rough section called Hell Gate. My forward stroke degenerated into a series of low (and a few high) braces.

-Leon

[leong]

Seems like a good problem to have-I wish I had this problem. My problem is that independent of whatever paddle I employ I don't get above 3-3.5k average speed. While none that i paddle with have a problem with that, there is a phenomenon that has occurred which may deserve some discussion. Occasionally we're all out for a mellow paddle and the wind and sea state changes: big rollers, some breaking, occur. My stronger companions may feel more comfortable increasing their stroke and energy, while I am still at my limit. I've never found that increasing speed has been necessary to cope in that situation or even represented a safety issue-slow and easy does it and it works for me. However if you are faster and employ some of the techniques to stay together, particularly, stopping or reversing direction, you may feel more at risk. Psychologically, the faster paddler may feel more secure digging in and paddling at 4k than he does at 2.5 or 3k, but is he physically safer? Anyone care to comment?

I don’t know the answer, Gene. Perhaps things are relative to your own natural paddling speed. For instance, a faster paddler, to feel safe in rough water, wants to paddle faster than a slower paddler does because she has a higher natural cadence. I would think that Greg Barton would feel uncomfortable paddling at my speed in really rough conditions. I really don’t know, but my guess is, that if you were magically able to paddle faster, you’d feel more comfortable at the higher speeds. Each strong stroke, especially with a wing blade, is a free brace.

-Leon

[bob budd]

Glad to see you are enjoying the low hanging fruit I left you, Rick. In case someone has gotten the wrong impression the "twig" is not inherently slower. In fact "twiggers" have been competitive in races like the Blackburn. So if you don't want to spend quite so much money on paddles, and be the envy of "spooners" all over the world, consider making your own paddle and joining the "dark side".

- Bill Murray's double

[rick stoehrer]

not inherently slower?

i don't recall the last olympic race won by a paddler using a greenland stick...or the blackburn for that matter...in any category. makes me think that, in fact, they are slower. i don't believe that's low hanging fruit...i think that's just...reality.

not to say it isn't perfectly good for paddling (and staring fires as needed) but it is not a fast blade.

[Doug]

I paddle both Euro and Greenland. I find the Greenland paddle to be very fast and efficient when used properly and have no problems maintaining a brisk pace with one. I prefer the Euro blade in big conditions, surfing and rock play because its shape gives me a more powerful brace. I can go a bit faster with a Euro than a Greenland stick and a tiny bit faster with a wing but don't rule out the power of a Greenland paddle and efficient stroke.

I find it easier to go slower using a Greenland blade due to its design. Slow Greenland strokes feel more graceful and artful to me than a huge Euro blade so I often use one in group paddling.

Its nice to appreciate the best of both worlds. Keeps things interesting. It almost feels redundant to me to go slow with a huge blade. It's like owning a sports car but never getting it out of second gear.

Doug

[jason]

Just paddle more. When you get in front of the group turn around and paddle to the back of the group at bit, then paddle to the front again, it will help you work on your speed and you will get extra miles in.

[Paul Sylvester]

Bring a shorter slower boat for the day.

[leong]

I paddle both Euro and Greenland. I find the Greenland paddle to be very fast and efficient when used properly and have no problems maintaining a brisk pace with one. I prefer the Euro blade in big conditions, surfing and rock play because its shape gives me a more powerful brace. I can go a bit faster with a Euro than a Greenland stick and a tiny bit faster with a wing but don't rule out the power of a Greenland paddle and efficient stroke.

I find it easier to go slower using a Greenland blade due to its design. Slow Greenland strokes feel more graceful and artful to me than a huge Euro blade so I often use one in group paddling.

Its nice to appreciate the best of both worlds. Keeps things interesting. It almost feels redundant to me to go slow with a huge blade. It's like owning a sports car but never getting it out of second gear.

Doug

Doug,

Although I almost exclusively use a Wing paddle, I agree with you about the GP. Consider the main physics of the difference between a Wing paddle and a GP:

With a Wing paddle the goal is to get enough drag and lift forces to lock the blade (no slippage) at the beginning of the stroke and keep it locked throughout the stroke (this is somewhat true for a Euro paddle as well, but with a little more slippage). In other words, the Wing paddle blade should not move with respect to the water; i.e. after the Wing is planted it doesn’t move as the boat is propelled forward. Say that you’re paddling at 5 knots with a Wing paddle. That implies the Wing blade is moving backwards with respect to the boat at exactly 5 knots (assuming a perfect lock).

With a GP (or any long skinny blade), there is more slippage of the blade in the water and to go at the same 5 knots as above, the GP blade must move backwards with respect to the boat at more than 5 knots. Thus, to paddle at the same speed, the long thin blade of a Greenland paddle requires that you paddle at a higher cadence than with a Wing paddle (or Euro paddle too). Depending on the distance that you intend to paddle and your athletic condition, a higher cadence may be more efficient for you and allow your body to generate more power (for example, look up Hills Equation for speed versus power of muscle contractions).

However, a well-conditioned kayaker usually has the strength and power to move a locked blade fast with respect to the boat. So for her, the maximum obtainable speed comparison goes like this: Wing > Euro > GP. But for maximum endurance, the order of the inequality may be reversed.

So the bottom line is that slippage reduces the efficiency of the paddle blade; however, slippage also increases the cadence and that may increase the efficiency of the paddler. So I guess that some paddlers may be able to go faster with a GP than with a Wing or Euro. Of course, that’s obviously not true for powerful kayak racers.

-Leon

PS

I purposely left out the many other differences between the three kinds of paddles.

Edited July 23, 2013 by leong

[josko]

Woiuld anyone know how many Greenland paddle entries there were at the Blackburn this year, in which categories, and how they finished? I can only find results broken down by boat class.