Efficient slow forward stroke

[leong]

Woiuld anyone know how many Greenland paddle entries there were at the Blackburn this year, in which categories, and how they finished? I can only find results broken down by boat class.

I didn't see any GPs in the race and I doubt that there ever have been, except just this once:

I used to train with Sanjay Gulati. He used a GP in the BBC about 12 years ago. I don't remember whether it was with his surf ski or with his (then) very fast sea kayak. I think he did quite well. I just looked him up and here’s an interesting experiment that he performed comparing a Euro to a GP http://www.connyak.org/Newsletter/Y0005/2005Apr.pdf.

-Leon

[leong]

Try this link http://www.connyak.org/Newsletter/Y0005/2005Apr.pdf

[EEL]

I recall stories from two sponsored expeditions where all the pictures from the expedition showed the paddlers using the sponsor's paddlers, but some of the paddlers used a GP essentially all of the time. They switched for the photo ops. For touring I seriously doubt there is any speed difference as such between a GP and an EP and a GP has many wing paddle characteristics they say.. For racing and playing in rocks and surf GPs would not seem to be be the right tool. Useable, but not the right tool.

Ed Lawson

[billvoss]

I just stumbled on this Greg Stamer post about Sticks versus Wings, and thought it might be of interest.

http://www.gregstamer.com/2012/02/12/greenland-paddle-wing-paddle

[josko]

I think this link is right on tyhe money. For me, the high-arm, chicken wing stroke just doesn't make sense at 3 knots. There is just too much body flailing compared to the amount of propulsion force required. Injecting a pause into the stroke seems to make even less sense. I'm still wondering what the ideal stroke when trying to optimize 'distance per Snickers bar' ought to look like. Greg makes a powerful case that it's the GP stroke, but i still wonder what the stroke ought to look like with a euro or wing paddle at low speeds.

I just stumbled on this Greg Stamer post about Sticks versus Wings, and thought it might be of interest.

http://www.gregstamer.com/2012/02/12/greenland-paddle-wing-paddle

[leong]

I think this link is right on tyhe money. For me, the high-arm, chicken wing stroke just doesn't make sense at 3 knots. There is just too much body flailing compared to the amount of propulsion force required. Injecting a pause into the stroke seems to make even less sense. I'm still wondering what the ideal stroke when trying to optimize 'distance per Snickers bar' ought to look like. Greg makes a powerful case that it's the GP stroke, but i still wonder what the stroke ought to look like with a euro or wing paddle at low speeds.

I don’t know what else to say. It’s like a world-class weight lifter wondering how he should efficiently heft a mug of beer. Or a sub 4-minute miler wanting to take a walk with his two-year-old daughter. They just do it and don’t worry about efficiency.

On the other hand, you could always paddle with a broomstick using a standard forward stroke (chicken wing and all that). So long as the broomstick moves fast enough it’ll propel the boat along nicely. That’s because the thrust squares with velocity. So doubling the velocity increases thrust by a factor of four. Hence, to increase the thrust by a factor of four you could use a paddle with four times the area or you could double the velocity (cadence). To simplify things, I’m purposely leaving out some effects such a lift, flutter, flex, etc.

Respectfully,

-Leon

[josko]

I'm sorry if I'm just not getting this, but let's assume I'm setting to paddle the 48 nauitical miles around Martha's Vineyard and decide to try to average 3.5 knots for 14 hrs of paddling, which is the fastest I think I can go for such a distance. I would argue that it's worth my while to find the most efficient stroke possible, i.e. one that uses the least amont of energy. I just don';t know what that stroke would look like, or what paddle I should try to use. I would argue it would not be the high-arm, chicken-wing stroke that seems so natural at 4.5 knots or that I see surf ski paddlers use.

Come to think of it, what do real long-distance paddlers use, say the guys kayaking across the Atlantic?

[leong]

I'm sorry if I'm just not getting this, but let's assume I'm setting to paddle the 48 nauitical miles around Martha's Vineyard and decide to try to average 3.5 knots for 14 hrs of paddling, which is the fastest I think I can go for such a distance. I would argue that it's worth my while to find the most efficient stroke possible, i.e. one that uses the least amont of energy. I just don';t know what that stroke would look like, or what paddle I should try to use. I would argue it would not be the high-arm, chicken-wing stroke that seems so natural at 4.5 knots or that I see surf ski paddlers use.

Come to think of it, what do real long-distance paddlers use, say the guys kayaking across the Atlantic?

Ah, now I think I see what you really want. I was fixated on what should you do to paddle below your normal rate to stay with a slower pod? But I guess that your main question is what stroke and what paddle should you use when you want to paddle for a very long distance minimizing your total energy expended? Here’s my two cents on the subject:

1. I think that you shouldn’t use the wing for a long distance, unless it’s for a marathon race.

2. You should probably use a small bladed touring style Euro paddle with a flexible (as opposed to stiff) shaft or a Greenland paddle. Most think that the GP is more efficient. That’s probably true if you’ve mastered the GP stroke. If not, then a small blade Euro is probably more efficient. For the stroke form with the Euro, I think the low angle forward stroke is more efficient than the high angle stroke. As far as the chicken wing thing goes, I don’t like it that much but I do switch to using it periodically when going for extreme distance. I did this when I paddled a double circumnavigation of Cape Ann (about 40 grueling miles). Also, I remember occasionally switching between extreme and moderate rotation.

3. I find that switching around my stroke form and where I hold the paddle is helpful when I'm really tired.

I hope my rambling was worth something.

-Leon

[djlewis]

...If not, then a small blade Euro is probably more efficient...

Rather than "small", do you mean a high aspect ratio (longer, narrower) euro blade? Like say a Werner Kalliste?

Actually, the total surface area of the Kalliste is 650 sq cm, which is larger than that of the Cyprus, 610, even though the latter is generally considered more "aggressive", that is, optimized for a higher-angle stroke and with a "powerful catch". Of course, the Ikelos at 710 sq cm is definitely the largest and most aggressive of their line in all ways.

BTW, I love my Kalliste for low or high angles -- smooth and relatively easy on my bum shoulder. Many thanks to Jed Luby for putting me onto the Kalliste years ago.

[leong]

Rather than "small", do you mean a high aspect ratio (longer, narrower) euro blade? Like say a Werner Kalliste?

Yes, longer and narrower. But I also I think it should tend to be smaller in area too (to facilitate a higher cadence for a given speed). As I said elsewhere, increases in muscle efficiency at higher cadence may more than compensate for the loss of thrust due to slippage of a "smaller" blade.

[spider]

oh, oh..I don't know which is more efficient etc etc. I know I paddle with a 'stick" and often find it hard not to pull ahead in a group situation.

So if I want to keep my cadence and keep with others I just angle the paddle so the paddle has less strength and just pops in and out of the water with little effort. Sometimes I drop back to visit with others and then scoot up to talk to someone near the front, so nice advice about touching base with others as you go along. sometimes I just zig zag along, but have found if I literally do circles it can wear on people so I avoid that. All that being said I seldom paddle in a group, plenty of people are better paddlers and could easily leave me well behind, so I'm just talking group situations...