Any body else sleeping out this weekend..

[JohnHuth]

Yes, when we did our -20 degree trip, one of the 3 season tents froze to the ground - obvious mechanism - warmth from breath slightly melts the snow - it puddles at the bottom of the tent, and then refreezes and sort of attaches the base of the tent to the ground. It took awhile to get it off.

My Northface (Everest mountain type) came through like a champ.

I'm going XC skiing up in the Whites one of these weekends soon!!! Yippee.

[EEL]

Unless you are going to be above treeline and/or in heavy snowfall, I can't see the purpose or use of a "four season" tent winter camping in NE. I actually prefer a mesh tent body assuming there is a full coverage fly and I'm not dealing with lots of powdery/drifting snow. Dealing with the typical hoar frost in a four season tent can be a real pain, particularly after a few days and a mesh body reduces or eliminates that problem. Its not like it is going to far colder than a four season tent. My experience is you always find the snow under the tent floor has developed a hard compacted texture due to heat loss through the sleeping pad and general warmth in the tent, but I have never had a tent floor stick to it enough to cause problems. I gone winter camping with mountaineering tents, summer tents, tarps, and bivy sacks and so long as I did not push their respective limits they all worked fine. When you are up against it, need to cook inside and don't want to worry about the tent holding up as it starts to get buried in snow or whipped by wind, then you want a true four season tent. For the typical weekend in the woods, most decent 3 season tents will do just fine in my opinion.

Ed Lawson

[...]

They say you learn a great deal about a person if you understand how they spend their leisure time. After setting up my tent in the back yard earlier today, I will be venturing out to spend the night and to test several theories in a few minutes. To me, this is a good use of my valuable leisure time. However, I can not say this view is shared by my neighbors.

Since the clan is firming up our winter camping schedule, it seemed time to begin my preparations.

First off, I plan to test how it feels to spend a few hours eating fresh baked brownies, drinking hot chocolate and reading one of my favorite books, "Weather Predicting Simplified" by Michael William Carr.

I will also be testing various techniques to stay warm and comfortable throughout the night. Then I hope to awaken at 6:00AM and prepare a hot cup of coffee and savor two thick slices of Cathy Folster's most outstanding banana nut bread which I have been storing in my freezer for a special occasion. I am also following Jason's recommendation to try using a mixed fuel canister stored over night in my sleeping bag.

Hopefully, a great deal of new knowledge will be acquired and further field testing will follow. Well, got to run, wish me luck!

Warren

[JohnHuth]

Hi, Ed -

I'm planning on going back country skiing in the Pemigewasset Wilderness and will certainly bring my Northface- killer tent. It weighs more, sure, but I don't want to take a chance of getting hit hard by a storm - I can just hunker down if I have to.

I've been in lighter "three season" tents up in the high country, even in the summer, and there have been a few nights when I really wish I'd had that Northface mountain tent. So, yeah most of the time it breaks the right way, but when things turn nasty, those all-season tents are a godsend.

J

[spider]

Spending leisure time sleeping out doors...neighbors a wonderin...??

perhaps this thought helps...I learned after spending much time with a particular uncle...

"it is important to develop your eccentricities at a young age...that way when older... people will say..Aw don't worry about him he's always been that way"

ahh my mantra these days ...

[EEL]

John:

Planning on a through trip to Zeland Falls Road or a loop using both side of river and suspension bridge? Either way both great. Great any way actually.

Hopefully there will be more snow as things are thin right now in many places. I took a hike today in Belknap range and the ground was bare.

All this stuff makes me want to get out there again, but I don't think the old bones could take it.

I hear you about having a margin in case things don't go as expected. I have lugged a winter tent on many a trip and at times glad I did. We all do it differently according to our "star" so to speak and don't presume my way is the right way. Just what I have done.

Ed Lawson

[...]

What a great experience sleeping out last night!

I was careful about proper venting my 4 seaon tent and luckily no condensation problems. I used a 0 degree bag on top of a Synmat which I enclosed inside my emergency bivy which is made of space blanket material. Seemed like a reasonable arrangement until I slide down during the night and the foot section of the sleeping bag was pressed up against the wall of the tent. That is a great arrangement if you want extra cold feet. I slide back up and used John's technique of breathing inside the bag and the feet warmed right up. Thank you John!

I was actually so happy in my tent, I slept for 10 hours and found a nice inch of snow all over the tent this morning . So what would I do differntly? Bake more brownies next time!

Spider, I think I would have really liked knowing your uncle!

Warren

[spider]

Congratulations, sleeping out on a cold winters night is a world unto itself.

Any trouble staking out the tent and guy lines ?

Conversations of using 3 season tents in winter depending on tempts and preferences etc, so thought I would mention you can also do the reverse and use a winter tent in the summer depending on what you might need. This year we opted for a 2 week trip bringing the winter tent, mostly because it had two vestibules so lot's of flexibility and ideas ...and as we know "flexibility is a component of fitness. :->

Sometimes you just look at what you have and give it your best shot with what you have, or think you might need, and of course you can always rent.

I think it was about 15 degrees this morning when I saw a Bluebird fly, sometimes not as many things here in the winter, but special are the ones that you do get to see.

[gyork]

I think it was about 15 degrees this morning when I saw a Bluebird fly, sometimes not as many things here in the winter, but special are the ones that you do get to see.

When cleaning out one of many of the bluebird houses last week, I inadvertently startled a threesome cozied up in the chilly weather-startled me!

[rfolster]

There seems to be a good chance for snow on Friday, so this weekend might be a good chance to test out camp setups on snow-covered ground. I may test the bivy to see how it performs. If so, I'll post with some pics.

[prudenceb]

There seems to be a good chance for snow on Friday, so this weekend might be a good chance to test out camp setups on snow-covered ground. I may test the bivy to see how it performs. If so, I'll post with some pics.

Make sure that you include some of the interior shots that we so enjoyed the last time!

pru

[spider]

..we slept out last night,quite nice...

Thinking it through with the snowfall and a bivy, there is one important thing to remember, though it might be old news for some.

but the gist of it is

Never ever use a tarp as a blanket or protection directly on top of a bivy or sleeping bag in the winter. It is probably mentioned more frequently on hiking websites but as we know in Kayking we have real dangers and perceived dangers, same would be true in this case.

The danger using a tarp, or plastic directly over you is that it can seal you in much like an envelope and you fall asleep, but it is the forever sleep. Sometimes this shows up when people arrive early at a trail head, or ski lodge and decide to sleep on the ground for a few hrs till sunrise for example. Though the tarp may seem lose enough when you start out it can freeze to the ground from the warm of your body or breath.

Always sad when you read of such things, I would call it a real danger but not quickly perceived as such.

So, of course, we all want happy healthy campers so thought it might be worth mentioning for safety's sake.

Looks like the tempts come up a few days after the snowfall, I've lost track who is paddling this winter but I hope to take advantage of the "window of opportunity" if it plays out as projected.

..happy paddling...and toasty toes for camping...

[rfolster]

I don't think that would have occurred to me. I picked up a set of shorty poles (just under 4') and a smal cheap tarp to keep rain & snow off the bivy. My guess is that if a suspended tarp (using ropes and/or poles) colapses it would wake you up and fix the problem?

[spider]

I would think so, sounds like you have an idea or two in mind. Glad I mentioned the don't use a tarp as a sheet thing, other than that you can get pretty creative I would be apt to say.

[Michael_Crouse]

Using a rope line under the tarp would be safer but you'll need a couple of trees for that.

If you have a floorless shelter now is a good time to try it out.

Now you know why I just use a tent :-)

[spider]

We are not the only ones thinking about the snowfall here's a link with a few ideas for a bit of winter camp fun .

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?47953-Winter-Tent-Challenge-13 (I think anyone can read it but only members can reply)

..he does mention you don't have to occupy the camp

I'm not sure I will set up till till after the storm mostly because of hurricane winds if they arrive.

and another just for ideas and fun

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?47842-Winter-campsite-photo-s

of course I don't see any kayaks...but...winter camping may lead to one using one's kayak as a toboggan.

I would recommend using somebody elses...

bonne chance...

[rfolster]

of course I don't see any kayaks...but...winter camping may lead to one using one's kayak as a toboggan.

I would recommend using somebody elses...

Like this?

[spider]

That's great, usually you see the white water yaks doing it. They nailed it good with the long boats.

Slept out again last night (Sat 9)

I took the tent down for the snow storm and pitched it when it stopped snowing.

Took a picture or two I might be able to post later.

One friend thought that would be a lot of shoveling for the tent. In fact though it was no shoveling. The idea is to snowshoe out to the spot then starting in the center keep going in an ever increasing circle outward till all is nice and smooth....Then leave it for at least 20 min or so to firm up before pitching the tent.

Excellent snowshoeing and skiing but I think the "window of opportunity" closes with rain Mon.

Heading to the seashore today to see how it survived the storm.

[rfolster]

It got pretty cold here in northern MA last night (6 degrees at 7am). What gear and techniques are you using to stay warm?

[spider]

the -40 degree sleeping bag is a big help. Different the last couple of times as my wife joined me.

For that we use one sleeping bag with a zip in section shaped like a triangle for extra room.

Thing is the bag is a "waterproof"-40 down bag but the zip section(primaloft) is rated for +20, so we try to keep that section under us.

It's cozy, hard to say if it's any warmer than two separate bags but it is a lot "friendlier"

I see from some of the other tenting links, still testing their tents from the storm, that one problem with rain in the winter is that, after they dig out it floods out the lowest spot which in that case is their tent.

I hadn't ever thought of it that way, but yet another reason rain is about the last thing we want in the winter.

Checked a couple of launch sites that I like, lot's of ice floes in the current (Plum Island Sound) another spot Salisbury State Park was closed altogether. Looks like lot's of ice in the Merrimack, so no big motivation to get on the water there.

[EEL]

Since this seems a topic of some interest and some may be reading it to garner info on gear and technique, I recommend reading the book "Extreme Alpinism" by Mark Twight. Lots of great insights and info about going in harms way and the tools for doing so. While the climbing specific gear discussions are of no use to kayakers, I found his discussion on the mental aspects, philosophy, physical and metal preparation, food, and camping gear to be very valuable and applicable. At least from my perspective as one who tends to go light and a bit spartan.

Ed Lawson

[eidsvolling]

Ahem. As the instigator of the aforementioned "Winter Tent Challenge '13", may I offer some lessons gleaned over forty years of winter camping in dry snow, wet snow, wet snow with rain, and yes, the worst of all: no snow.

1. In winter, Mother Earth is not interested in your welfare or happiness. She will do her dead level best to suck the heat from your body all night long. Having no snow is worst because it deprives you of the insulation otherwise available. As a corollary: Do not clear snow away from where the tent will stand. Go very easy on any tamping with snowshoes or boots - only do as much as necessary to prevent the tent floor from sagging badly.

2. This will be hard for kayakers to accept, perhaps: Water is your enemy in winter. Be fussy to the point of annoying others about snow getting in the tent. Brush all snow off your clothing as soon as possible. Make absolutely certain you're venting moisture-laden air from your tent at night. Take your sleeping bag out in the morning and shake off any frozen condensation. If weather conditions are favorable, hang it out to air. On days 3 through X, you'll understand all this fussiness.

3. Buckminster Fuller was the smartest man who ever lived. If you doubt that statement, go back to spider's link to my tent challenge and watch my video repeatedly until you accept this truth.

[spider]

Ahh ha...you do exist on these boards.

Good advice all of it.

the Conover's book.. Winter Wilderness Companion..I've taken many an idea from that as well. They did the opposite of winter coastal camping and traveled the frozen waterways instead, traveling the old ways, wise folk they are.

Born a doubter I'll have to go back and check that video link :-> but I'm easy to convince.

( occasionally I tend to think of tents as portable caves).

.... even dropped the "solo" part of my name here in deference to paddling with others....sometimes........

[rfolster]

While I did not participate in the "Winter Tent Challenger '13", I was finally able to perform my very first winter camping test in the yard last night:

Sorry for the picture quality, but I got a late start and did not finish setting up until about 8:00pm. Dinner was a freeze-dried lasagna which was not as bad as I thought it would be (it was actually quite good), and for dessert I had a freeze-dried banana cream pie, which was worse than I thought it would be (maybe I just don't like banana cream pie?).

What I learned:

1) I don't have snow stakes, so I planned to use "rocks" (spare patio pavers), which ended up being hard to locate under a foot of snow! Hmmmm, pick up some snow stakes or pack a shovel? Hmmmm....

2) Hot food or beverages don't stay that way for long (duh!) if you don't have an insulated surface to set them down on. Even a spare glove shoud work.

3) Just setting up camp can warm you up very well. Ended up taking off a layer.

4) Heated up enough water for dinner and tea, plus to fill my thermos which I stuffed into two spare gloves to keep warm over night. Eleven hours later, the water was still steaming but just enough to be easily drinkable. I was able to have hot tea and a granola bar while still sitting in my sleeping bag - no stove to deal with first thing in the morning!

5) What surprised me the most, and this may go to what Charles said about not packing down the snow, the cold coming up from below was amazing! I had a ground cloth, the bivy, an inflatable sleeping pad, a light weight down "travel" blanket, and a 15 degree sleeping bag, and I could still feel the cold from the snow! That will need some work to avoid the chill tonight.

6) Pack sleeping bag liners top first. If you need to pull one out in the middle of the night, you can just feed it feet first right into your sleeping bag, do some yoga exercises to get yourself into the liner, and not have to get out of the bag. Oh, it takes some work, but that also helps to warm you up!

7) The screen on the bivy will hold in more heat than you would realize (did not use the outer cover at all). You do get an occasional chilly breeze, but it was plenty cozy in the 15 degree bag to not mind.

8) The moisture collection, even with just the bivy screen, was much more than expected. My sleeping bag and mat are both damp and currently airing out along with the bivy turned inside out. I may need to stick with tents in the winter.

9) A dromedary bag kept at the foot of the sleeping bag actually caused my feet to get cold! I quickly pulled that out but kept it in the bivy. Although it got down to freezing last night, none of the water (even outside the bivy) froze. I will have to revisit this in colder weather.

Overall, it was a good test. Tonight, I (and perhaps Cathy as well) will test the tent and see how that performs. It is a three-season, but the mesh does not go all the way to the floor, and the fly comes pretty close to the ground. It is supposed to be below freezing tonight, so I will have to see if I can stay warm and keep the water from freezing. If all goes well, I might even try again Sunday night which is supposed to get into the teens. Then again, maybe not.

[EEL]

I do not believe it is possible to over emphasize the point eidsvolling makes about the essential need to keep everything dry, to take the time to air and dry stuff, and to assiduously keep snow brushed off stuff. You just cannot rush it in the winter as you need to dry out gear before packing it up and that often takes some time every morning because the moisture in gear will seep everywhere when it is packed. The energy that will be sucked from you by damp clothes/sleeping bag is energy you will not have later to stay warm. Mind what eidsvolling says about day 3 on. You can get away with sloppy technique for a day, maybe two, but any longer and you will discover the error of your ways. If you are three days from civilization at that point, it could bite hard. BTW, A nice stiff brush can be very handy when camping in the snow.

Ed Lawson

Who is waiting for nice warm weather before camping