Any body else sleeping out this weekend..

[spider]

Just thought I would mention now is a wonderful time to practice those winter camping skills.

The conditions are great and the full moon gives great visibility during the night.

I slept out last night to practice practice practice Stuff like:

.....Trying to see when my eye glasses freeze up

...Pitching the tent wearing mittens

...Staking out the tent..that was a "no go".... the ground is frozen and not enough snow to use winter stakes.

....Gather wood to tie tent to

..hope tent doesn't blow away in the meantime.

.... Zipper Pulls where are all the zipper pulls to make things easy and mitten/glove friendly...could have sworn I had tended to that earlier in the season

Used a winter tent which I believe stand frigid tempt better...you know it's a cold day when your tent fabric starts to shatter or rip quite easily, but others probably know more details about stuff like that.

Tempts were somewhere around zero

Dry snow is our friend.... kayak camping you need to throw in some mist and spray into the mix.

So I didn't truly camp I just slept out for the eve...kept the tent door open. to cut down on condensation..

I'll be out there again tonight.

Sweet dreams...stay warm

[Michael_Crouse]

Snow or sand anchors work well and when tying to a rock or log use two. Tie to one then put the second on top of the line against the one you're tied to. It works incredibly well and I would much rather gather 2x the amount of rocks than have my tent fall over on me.

A 4 season tent is warmer and stronger. A decent three season can be used in the winter but those new all mesh bodied tents are a big no way. A full rain fly and a body that won't let in snow drifts and wind is a must have. For winter I'll use my old Moss ,my Stephonsons, or my old Walrus Terromotto.

Dry snow can be quite handy for drying off! Something to remember when you get wet out in the woods without anyway to warm up or dry off.

I'm tempered to try out my old wind wedge floorless tent and see how I do but since my 100+ year old house breathes better than goretex I think I'll just stay inside :-)

[...]

Spider,

Your posting is shaming me into getting busy and practice my winter camping skills. I have been blaming my inactivity to all the winter pool sessions on my calendar.

I few weeks ago, Rob and I attended the REI workshop in Reading on Winter Camping. The workshop was excellent and gave us a lot of great ideas. Now to test out those ideas. The smart thing would be for me to follow Pru's suggestion to conduct the test on the lawn out back. If the ideas don't work, run inside for a hot chocolate!

Some of the ideas which I liked include:

1. Vent the four seaon tent to reduce condensation and ice forming on the inside.

2. Check the "R" rating on the sleeping pad and if not 4 or 5, consider placing a space blanket between the pad and the bag.

3. Use land based shoes with a removable insole which you place in the sleeping bag.

4. Choose foot booties which are warm and loose around the ankles.

5. Snack before bed. (My favorite!)

Lots and lots of other good ideas! Definitely worth the time and drive.

Warren

[EEL]

If you don't use a tent, then you don't need to worry about condensation which is a real hassle. I wonder if you can even buy a tent with a frost liner anymore.

I find it odd folks will go camping and then close themselves up in a tent. Windy, snowy nights excepted. Nothing like a cold, still moonlight night in winter for looking at stars from comfort of a nice sleeping bag.

Sleeping out in the backyard to confirm sleeping bag, etc. definitely a good idea. Pru true to her namesake so to speak.

Of course, I'm staying close to woodstove and staring at charts.

Ed Lawson

[spider]

yes there are times you can just use a sleeping bag or bivy.

I find a far greater chance of my stuff blowing away or getting drifted over, and find I track more snow into the sleeping bag without the tent, then it melts with body heat increasing dampness.

Definitely doable and of course the practice is always good and conditions are excellent right now, full moon et al

[PeterB]

What an informative and interesting thread .

One question to Miike et al: why is "dry snow" good for " drying off"? I don't quite know what that means but it sounds interesting.

[spider]

Dry snow = powdered water.

So it absorbs water till it reaches the same saturation point to my understanding.

... winter campers are sometimes asked if they remembered the powdered water....yes, it's a cruel world out there :-)

[EEL]

It may sound odd, but in some places like out West at high elevations and the great North Wood the snow can stay dry and fluffy for quite awhile. So it is often said that if you plunge into a stream or something similar the first thing to do is roll in the snow since it really does act like a sponge. It won't make your clothes/boots dry, but it helps. Of course you have to get the snow off as it will form big clumps as I recall and then you have blocks of ice to deal with. Snow is a great insulator relatively speaking when it gets genuinely cold as in subzero which is why snow shelters can be comfy.

Warren's comment about eating a late snack is an important one. Good to have high energy snacks in the bag with you for nibbling as well as something to drink.

One very miserable way to spend a night is to get cold around 3 or 4, wake up, and stay chilled till time to move out. I found it easy to think you were going to stay warm and get careless about exposing hands and face, not getting hood cinched tight. Only so much fuel in the tank and if you burn it early, you pay later.

I found it useful to have a wool scarf to use to wrap around neck and cover the hood opening (IMHO, a good winter bag hood should cinch down to a opening just big enough for your nose) so nothing is exposed to the air. It also reduces the amount of air moving in and out of the bag which causes heat loss.

Ed Lawson

[...]

Another tidbit from the REI workshop focused on water. As Ed mentions above, drinking water is important, but how do you keep it from freezing. One approach is to start with a wide mouth water bottle and place it in an insulated sleeve that contains the silver space blanket material. Now here is the important part, store it upside down in the tent, not in your sleeping bag. Based on whether or not you have a four season tent and the outside temperature, there is a strong possibility some of the water will freeze. Since we know water will freeze from the top down, simply turn the bottle right side up and drink the unfrozen portion. Cool!

Warren

P.S. Hey Spider, how did you do sleeping outside last night?

[spider]

"Snug as bug in a rug."

The sleeping bag was cold from being in the tent all day but warmed right up in short order.

If the wind came up stronger it would have been a little noisy with the guy lines blowing about as I didn't tie off each and every one. If it were snowing the weight of the snow might have become an issue, but every thing was fine for the conditions that we had.

Quite nice actually...the squeak and crunch of the snow... full moon..moon shadows ...a world unto it's own.

Turkeys often come at dusk to roost for the night here in the pine trees.

I didn't hear them last eve.

...I might have been the only turkey out there...;->

[PeterB]

Heres an offbeat thought: its commonly known that hydration in cold weather is important; since we tend not to be thirsty in cold weather we can be more prone to drinking less water and becoming dehydrated (common winter hiking practice; keep an eye out for urine that is too yellow) SO: Since both hydration and warm beverages (tea etc) are important in winter camping, would keeping a thermos of hot water alongside the thermos of hot beverage (tea) be a good idea? Simply drink warm or hot water every time one hydrates seems like a good idea but ive never heard this practiced, nor have i done so myself.

[JohnHuth]

One of the problems about sleeping in cold weather is 'cold diuresis' - the body "wants to" shed water in the cold, to keep it drier on average. So, just when you've got settled into you -20 degree bag, and all's snug, that's when you find that your body is telling you to go out and pee. I have some fundamental objection to using a nalgene bottle for this purpose, and will just go out in my long johns and pee. Of course, I end up shivering for about 20 minutes in my bag afterwards, so perhaps I should reconsider my problem with nalgene's.

My son was in a troop with an insane scout master. We went out when the forecast was for -20.

My stuff for winter - high end Northface tent. The stakes have a "V" shape to them, and can penetrate frozen ground pretty well. The tent itself is very warm - that is to say, breath will stay inside the tent and keep it warm. I *will* stake the tent down wearing a pair of thin-ish gloves - my compromise on dexterity.

I have two -20 degree bags - one is down, the other synthetic. The synthetic one in particular takes up a huge amount of room in the backpack.

Any battery operated device that you want to have operational goes in the bag with you when you sleep, and also as close to your skin as you can. Batteries fail around -10 to 0 degrees F. Any bottle of water you want to drink also goes into the bag with you.

Also, if you're being really careful, the feet and hand warmers that skiiers use are pretty nice.

[spider]

I sometimes prefer drinking hot water, or hot soup.

A big warm cup of tea at bedtime is also nice... but it about insures extra p calls in the night.

Often the 1st night goes well but day 2 can be a challenge. Things are frozen that were not supposed to be... often the water bottle is worn in your clothing next to your body. A big vote for loose fitting clothes in the winter and a belt or sash of some kind to keep things from falling out every time you stand up.

....but if we were kayak camping then we might find we need a bit of time to get the ice off the boat...

[...]

Spider,

Do you kayak camp in March on any of the islands off the coast of Maine which do not have wildlife restrictions? I am thinking about one of the MCHT islands in Casco Bay for a nice one night journey in March. Any interest?

Also, as John mentions above, it is good to have a -20 bag. I have a 0 and a 15 bag and thought about double bagging if the forecast was for an extra cold night. I also have a liner that could add another 10 degrees of comfort. I hope to test out this arrangement in the back yard or perhaps the front yard just to give the neighbors something to talk about!

Warren

[JohnHuth]

I always find the ratings for bags a bit misleading. I've come to understand that if you sleep in a bag at the 'rated' temperature, you're not terribly comfortable. It's more like a 'survivability' rating, although that's perhaps overstating it. For most of my camping, I have a 20 degree down bag that works. I do a lot of backpacking in the mountains, where it gets cold at night, but I find that the 20 degree bag is good for that.

On a weekend like this one, I'd clearly go with the -20 bag. I suppose everyone has hit on the trick of breathing in and out inside the bag to add the warmth of breath to gain maybe 10 degrees, right? I guess that's kind of obvious.

[Brian Nystrom]

If anyone is interested in a -40 degree bag (Moonstone Abruzzi Ridge DL, Long), I have one that's never been used that I was planning to put on Ebay. You'll have a really tough time getting cold in it!

[prudenceb]

...and staying "true to my namesake" as Ed L puts it, I sure am enjoying reading this chilly thread from the comfort of my cozy house, reassured that since I only have a 3 season tent and a 2 1/2 season sleeping bag, I'm safe from everything that's being discussed! Enjoy yourselves, boys!

pru

ps - Warren, what are you waiting for?? Get out there and sleep! You've already let the best week of winter pass you by!

[Michael_Crouse]

I think it's interesting that the conditions we have now are great for practicing with. Islands won't have much snow cover so our yards with frozen ground and a dusting of snow is close to what's out on the islands.

Most of the winter camping instructions I've seen are geared towards hiking. I doubt any of us are bringing (or would need) a snow shovel, snow shoes, or trekking poles with us.

Neos makes a nice over shoe, combine that with a down bootie and you'll be warmer in camp and in your sleeping bag.

Anyone left their dry suit outside then tried to gently side their hands and head through the gaskets yet?

[scamlin]

John:

No need to agonize about Nalgene.

As is well known, I am a fan of the Little John which solves the problem of pain, dehydration and risky landings during long streches on the water.

It eventually occurred to me to take my Little John in the tent at night on kayak or canoe camping trips for similar problems. Works like a charm, especially if you have a rear door: open the zipper about 12-18", slide you hand out and pour. A female attachment is available.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=little+john+portable+urinal&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=7905671145&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=213383874885864075&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_3dil8ztvla_b

Disclaimer: I have no commercial interest in Little John.

Scott

[spider]

Warren: March we traditionally climb one of the Mnts up in the Whites for our winter camping fix.

I could be interested in some Casco Bay though so please keep me in mind.

In general as one person mentioned, probably no snowshoes needed...but doesn't hurt to know, how, where, what kind, you might use if needed.

Snowshoeing to a river access is fun, then getting in the boat etc.. it helps put a new meaning to "flounder about" (but I don't think most people have that in mind for coastal kayaking.)

Thinking ice would be the most common..there are various "ice creepers" of various sorts that might be handy, kind of like what some ice fishermen might use.

Something I haven't tried with the kayaks but chances are they are not that "user friendly" for our boats. Micro spikes might be just the thing to give a try.

When I mentioned some people wear their water, I was thinking in terms of the Camel Bak and Platypus products out there. I usually keep a water bottle next to me and wrap the others in my Parker like a "cozy"

..lot's of theories on whether to sleep dressed in warm clothes, some clothes, no clothes at all..."chilly cheeks"

so just for the heck of it I'll mention,

sleeping bag was a -40 bag...I sleep in it with my parker and every thing else on.(cept boots) That way I can be more casual on how tightly I have to zip myself in. If it were cold enough I would cinch every thing down to just my face, but I know from practice, zero degrees and I won't have to with that bag.

There are also considerations of breathing in or outside of your sleeping bag as was mentioned, it also has moisture management considerations with various schools of thought.

For winter kayak camping I think the major weak link is our hands...they freeze up so quickly...we can have all sorts of nice stuff in our hatches but if we're unable to open them that ups the ante big time in a hurry.

I'm apt to say I would tend to over indulge with several gloves/ mittens..next would probably be socks....

All in all I go for poggies and mukluks....

everybody gets to develop their own preferences after awhile..it's pretty safe to say once you get everything all worked out they will invent something new to try.....

.

[rfolster]

As is well known, I am a fan of the Little John which solves the problem of pain, dehydration and risky landings during long streches on the water.

Scott, I recently aquired my own Little John and am looking forward to the chance to use it. Thanks for letting all of us know about such a useful item, and remember: "There is no modesty in kayaking, only decency."

..lot's of theories on whether to sleep dressed in warm clothes, some clothes, no clothes at all..."chilly cheeks"

I tend to be more of a "chilly cheeks" kind of person myself, however I have a very important aspect to share with those who have not camped in colder weather. My lifetime of camping has taught me to never wear all of my insulating layers to sleep in. The mornings are usually the coldest point of the day, and when you get out of your cozy sleeping bag, you need layers to put on as you begin to move about camp. When you get out of your sleeping bag, you are actually sheding a significant insulation layer that will need to be replaced until you are able to move around enough to generate your own body warmth, or until that glorious sunrise breaks through the morning mist and gets things warming up!

I find that the best method is to manage your sleeping bag(s) so that you need just one layer to sleep in. That will keep your outer and/or mid layer available in the chilly morning and help reduce the sting of putting on cold layers until you can build up your heat inside of them. A very inexpensive way to achieve this is with sleeping sacks or sleeping bag inserts. They are available in various temperature ratings and materials, do not take up much room at all so it is easy to bring multiple versions with you, and are much less expensive than buying multiple bags. These can be extremely helpful for longer trips where there can be as much as a 20+ degree difference from your first night out to your last.

[spider]

This past week has been a good week to observe which would be the most "user friendly" winter camping conditions.

We got a little snow. Snow being our friend when it is nice and dry...in winter the deeper the better,some would say.

Why ? With deep snow your options for tenting most anywhere increases greatly. Brush and rocks are covered, and you can make various wind breaks as desired.

So then we got snow...then it got warm, above 32 degrees. While the warm tempts were a nice treat, for winter camping it is not good..slush and mush.

Then it rained and we had puddles on top of frozen ground..ick very hard to keep anything dry.

Big winds...will tent blow away... esp if you staked it in the snow which would now be gone

Now it's cold again..has the tent frozen tight to ground ? Would we have wanted to use a tarp under it or would it have just blown away anyway..?

(would boat have also blown away...)

I'm thinking as folks consider a pleasant winter camping trip all these things come to mind as you plan what would make for a successful, enjoyable trip with nice memories.

I notice the Feb full moon is late in the month. If the weather is friendly, sure I could be tempted to do a coastal island overnight or two.

Hypothetically , in Casco Bay, what might be considered a good winter spot....?

[gyork]

Small island with a little cottage on it, if heavy weather is expected. Nice cove for a small ____ below the high tide line. Otherwise its neighbor to the E could work fine? PM sent.

[EEL]

Spider:

That was a low key way of describing the worst nightmare for a camper during the New England winter. Appearance mid-trip of low with mild temps and rain making soggy mess followed by high bringing big winds and cold temps freezing everything.

Ed Lawson

[rfolster]

Has anyone winter camped with a 3-season tent? I understand that a 3S tent has weaker poles and/or overall structural design, as well as large mesh areas for air movement. The pole/structure is only an issue when it snows, however the mesh venting can be a severe issue. Our tent has a fly that reaches almost to the ground and mesh on the top 1/2 or 2/3 of the tent that has not seemed to have very good air flow on warmer nights when we wanted it.

Now it's cold again..has the tent frozen tight to ground ?

A very good observation to consider - I had never thought of that! That would make for a bad camping trip to pick up your tent and the floor stays frozen on the ground (I can almost hear the gut renching "rip" as the material fails). If your tent is frozen to the ground, can you remove it without damage? Even if you use a ground tarp, do you leave the tarp behind and hope to come back in the spring to retreive it? I realize that it will most certainly not be there - just musing.

For those of us considering camping in March (or February? Really? Yikes!), I think that air temperatures and ground conditions will be just as important as water and wind conditions.