Any body else sleeping out this weekend..

[Michael_Crouse]

Some (hopefully) helpful comments

1) I don't have snow stakes, so I planned to use "rocks" (spare patio pavers), which ended up being hard to locate under a foot of snow! Hmmmm, pick up some snow stakes or pack a shovel? Hmmmm....

When hiking I've used my snowshoes, ice axe and trekking poles for anchors. I will not suggest using your spare paddle because jamming an essential piece of gear that is thin, fiberglass, or carbon into snow and ice that is concealing rocks will probably not end well. What else could you have used? Your gear that's in dry bags? Your kayak(s) that are weighed down with gear and might also make a nice wind break? Small discs (wood circles) with holes drilled in the center? Sticks and branches?

2) Hot food or beverages don't stay that way for long (duh!) if you don't have an insulated surface to set them down on. Even a spare glove shoud work.

A piece of foam cut to the inside dimensions of your hatch might be handy especially if you stiffen it up a bit by glueing plastic or thin wood to it. If you add some heavy foil it's a stove base, a table, a seat, etc....

5) What surprised me the most, and this may go to what Charles said about not packing down the snow, the cold coming up from below was amazing! I had a ground cloth, the bivy, an inflatable sleeping pad, a light weight down "travel" blanket, and a 15 degree sleeping bag, and I could still feel the cold from the snow! That will need some work to avoid the chill tonight.

What is your pad rated to? I assume it's an insulated inflatable pad. If it's not something like an Exped down mat you might have to add insulation to it. Add it to the top of the pad, not underneath it. There's conduction and convention and an uninsulated (or poorly insulated) air mattress will give you both.

7) The screen on the bivy will hold in more heat than you would realize (did not use the outer cover at all). You do get an occasional chilly breeze, but it was plenty cozy in the 15 degree bag to not mind.

Is that an ID Salathe bivy? Did I sell it to you many years ago? Just curious.

8) The moisture collection, even with just the bivy screen, was much more than expected. My sleeping bag and mat are both damp and currently airing out along with the bivy turned inside out. I may need to stick with tents in the winter.

Is the moisture from your breath or your body? Odd sounding question but some winter campers use vapor barriers inside their sleeping bags, this is usually only needed for several overnights but if you were too warm and sweating you might have gotten the bag wet.

Can you pitch one end of the tarp lower to create some natural venting to remove the condensation?

[EEL]

More random thoughts that may be helpful and trustworthy.

Use just one large insulated mug for food and drink. Sitting around outside and having a relaxed meal is often not in the cards. Have an insulating pad to sit on and perhaps to sit things on. Unless it is benign, after camp is made, get partially in the sleeping bag and cook/eat from there. Regulate clothing and activity so you are never all that warm or cold. Personally I try to stay just slightly on the cool side. Use any object as an anchor for lines and just bury in snow and pack down slightly. In a few minutes the snow will solidify and you will have a strong anchor. Condensation in sleeping bag and clothes from either breath or body vapor is your enemy; work to minimize it. One good option for winter camping is to use you regular summer or 3 season bag with a relatively light over bag. Or a very light bag inside your regular bag. These combos can work very well in cold weather. To me a big winter bag ( one rated for well below 0) is really a very specialized bit of gear and more useful for those who are seriously going in harm's way as opposed to those doing a bit of winter camping now and then when the temps are seldom much below zero.

Ed Lawson

[...]

All good thoughts listed above!

Rob, like yourself, I was amazed that I could not prevent the cold from the ground pulling the warmth from my body. I started with bare ground, foot print and tent floor, an Exped Synmat 7 UL M (R rating of 3), encased the Synmat in an emergency bivy made of space blanket material, 0 degree bag, sleeping bag liner, and up to four layers of clothing (wicking layer, then three wool layers on top, two on bottom), and still the ground felt cold.

Thoughout the night I was able to successfully regulate condensation in the tent as well as moisture next to my skin. To do that I was awake every two hours to adjust the venting of the tent as well as to slip into the liner and go from one layer to four layers as the temperature went from 37 degrees to 18 degrees.

I would have preferred to use only two layers and save two more for preparing to exit the tent so I think I will use the double bag approach Ed mentions above next time.

I did, however, find the issue of the cold ground a bit of a puzzle. It was as if Mother Nature was quietly saying "Go ahead, Warren, take some Tylenol PM and get yourself a good night sleep while I suck the life out of your body". I do plan to investigate the idea, mentioned by Michael, regarding the benefit of the Exped Down Mat 9 LW (R rating of 8.0)

So Mother Nature, I heed your warnings, but I will be back!

Warren

[spider]

I hope this links to some photos of setting up the tent after the snow a week or so ago.

https://picasaweb.google.com/102620973214188005944/Feb2013WinterFun?authkey=Gv1sRgCMmT4uOMufCyNw

it shows us setting up the tent area while wearing the 'raquette de neige'

I'm particularly fond of that particular pair as they are woven with fishing line of various strength from the Gaspe region of Quebec,fishing line because Cod fishing was the world there once upon a time.

Hope people are figuring in the "fun factor" into the snow camping equations as well :>

[rfolster]

The bivy that I have been using is an Integral Designs that was given to me with the explicit instructions that it not sit in my basement for three years as it had before. I am doing my best to honor that and having fun in the process. It is not GorTex, but some other "Tex" material that I don't think breathes as well. That may be the reason for the moisture collection. If I were to consider the purchase of another bivy, I would definitely look for one with GorTex material.

However, last night I spent the night in a three-season tent. It was more than 10 degrees colder than Friday night (20 vs 32), and as everyone has said before, the wind just came right through! That's funny, since when it is 85 degrees at night and we leave the fly off, we can't get any wind into that thing!

This morning I was glad that I had opted for the tent over the bivy since the wind was blowing and the snow was drifting. I would have waken to a face full of snow, or probably drowned in moisture had I closed the top over the screen. The tent is a Mountain Hardware Lightwedge 3 and did ok in the wind and dusting we were getting before I broke camp. I don't think it could have handled the big snow storm a couple of weeks ago.

I did not pack down the snow under the tent when I set it up, to see if it improved the problem with ground chill. It definitely made it harder to get into the tent and move around, since any pinpoint weight (knee, elbow, hand) would sink into the unpacked snow under the floor, so great care had to be taken to spread out my body weight when I moved around. I also used my "Crazy Chair" and my foam all-purpose mat (1/2 a thin yoga mat) under the pad (Synmat Exped 7M rated a R4.9) and tucked the down travel blanket (very thin) inside the sleeping bag. This system worked PERFECTLY and I did not feel any cold from below, but the question still remains if it was not packing the snow, using the camp chair under the pad, or adding the down blanket inside the bag instead of on top of the pad. More testing to be done, I guess.

I did stake the tent down using the regular hook stakes that came with the tent. I just pushed them into the snow, primarily to hold the vestibule in place, but also did the four tent corners as well. I was surprised at how much they "froze" into place and it took quite a bit of effort to release them this morning. I would be very interested to see if they have the holding power to hold a tarp, but that is a test that I would not want to sleep through.

I did not cook out last night, so I did not have the experience of setting up, then sitting around cooking, then waiting to go to bed. However, one of the things that I have found is that I can usually stay relatively comfortable, even just sitting around, until the temperature hits freezing. Friday night, setting up camp got me quite warm and I stripped off a layer or two to keep from overheating. When I cooked dinner, I was still moving around a little here and there, and did not feel the need to layer back up. Even as I sat and ate, I was fine, until all of a sudden my hands felt like I stuck them in a freezer. I glanced over at my travel clock which indicated the temperature was right at freezing. I may have to experience this a few more times, but that kind of information will really influence how to pack for a trip and what types of activities to plan for in order to keep warm or not so much.

I will admit that going to sleep was a little easier last night with the help of some Tylenol PM. I did find that the cold breeze through the tent was much more noticeable than in the bivy. It took only a minute for me to put the fleece hat back on and cinch up the mummy bag just a little. I once again was able to get comfortable enough to sleep in just my base silk layer, and keep the thermal layers off for the morning. I slept until about 4:30am, when I had to reach for the liner (Thermolite Reactor Extreme) which instantly warmed me up significantly. I slept again until about 7:00am when, coincidentally, it started to snow.

When I woke, once again my thermos of hot water was ready and waiting for me to add hot chocolate and enjoy, while still in the sleeping bag. This will become standard practice for me from now on! Just for my own curiosity, I placed a dromedary in the tent with extra clothing around it to insulate it, and one on the snow in the vestibule.

The one on the snow was put there around 8pm, and 12 hours later had a little bit of slush ice in it, but still plenty of water to pour out. I think if it had spend an entire day in a cold kayak hatch, and then been exposed to freezing temperatures all afternoon and through the night, it probably would not have faired so well. However, the dromadary in the tent (which was at least 7 degrees warmer inside than out, dispite the draftiness, was completely liquid - no ice whatsoever.

Once my mini-breakfast of hot coco and a granola bar was done, I was faced with the task of packing up during a snow "storm". It was not snowing hard, and it was not blowing hard, but combined with the task of packing up camp, the whole adventure lost it's appeal. Trying to keep falling snow out of the tent and gear while packing up is extremely difficult. I did not try too hard since everything was headed into the house, but if it was day two of a weeklong expedition, I don't know if I could have gotten the energy and desire to pack everything carefully enough. Maybe having the house only 20 feet away was affecting my mood, but I just don't know. What I DO know is that, even with a tent, I would always pitch a tarp just to help when packing up.

Tonight, the forecast is in the single digits, and that is cold enough to make this "crazy kayak camper" opt for the king size bed with four blankets on it inside a heated house, and the most wonderful wife to snuggle up with. If I were really out camping, I could probably make it through the night if I use the liner to start and keep the thermal layer on. It would mean wearing on or two more layers on top of that in the morning, which is doable. I would also have the warm-up activities of making a full breakfast and breaking down camp, so I believe I can survive a trip as long as temperatures stay above zero.

In conclusion, I have to say that the bivy is limited to temperatures above, say 40 degrees, to prevent too much moisture retention. Below that, I would really prefer a 4-season tent just to cut down on the breeze (isn't wind ALWAYS the biggest factor?!). Based on these tests, I know that I can make it through my early season camping trips, but I think that my next Christmas list will need some consideration!

[...]

Hey Rob,

Great summary of your adventure last night! I very much enjoy the careful method in which you explore and analyze all the variables.

Some would say that paddlers who paddle the ocean versus lakes and rivers are a bit crazy. But we know paddling the ocean is relatively safe as long as we practice and understand our risks. In many ways campers who camp in the winter are no more crazy than summer campers as long as we practice and understand our risks.

Nice job!

Warren

[rfolster]

I have to say that the bivy is limited to temperatures above, say 40 degrees, to prevent too much moisture retention. Below that, I would really prefer a 4-season tent just to cut down on the breeze.

After I posted this, I was contacted about a 4-season tent for sale. I put it up this weekend to test it out:

and waited for the snow to fly. This is why a 4-season tent is important:

First we had rain and then very heavy snow and the tent held up just fine. Most importantly, I stayed dry!

Looking forward to getting out on the water and spending a few crisp nights sleeping snug and warm in the cold winter air. Hope to see some of you out there.

[spider]

Very nice !

There are many ways to sleep out but something about a tent is nice and cozy. Tents= portable caves. Kind of like a cat with boxes, something way back in the DNA perhaps.....

i

Surely the neighbors will notice the up grade. Today I noticed the 1st of the "snow fleas" for the season while out today.

Still if you start talking to people about snow fleas you may notice that..... "they all moved away from me on the group W bench"

So you may not want to broach the subject with them......

[cfolster]

Am I the only one that had to google snow flea?

Ugh - I used to love snow, but now that I've learned recently that microbes make up many of the snowflake nuclei and there are bugs, I'm not so sure!

[rfolster]

Am I the only one that had to google snow flea?

No.

I used to love snow, but now that I've learned recently that microbes make up many of the snowflake nuclei and there are bugs, I'm not so sure!

Just think "protein"

[spider]

They are harmless and kind of fun if watching them spring about. I always think of them as an early sign of spring.

(we had the hardest time convincing a couple from Tennessee that we weren't making it up one year...)

Sometimes in the winter you start to notice the darnest things...