hanging draw

[prudenceb]

When you're doing a hanging draw, do you edge toward the paddle side or away? I've heard it said both ways, but makes sense to me only in one direction (which I won't say for fear of documenting how flat-out wrong I can be!)

pru

[Lallen]

Pru, I believe you can do it either way. If you edge away it feels more stable. But I think both are ways are options and help the boat slide more efficiently.

[jason]

When you're doing a hanging draw, do you edge toward the paddle side or away? I've heard it said both ways, but makes sense to me only in one direction (which I won't say for fear of documenting how flat-out wrong I can be!)

pru

It's a bit boat dependent, for most boats edging away should be more effeciant.

[rylevine]

I've heard both. However, if you are edging toward the paddle (deck facing the paddle), the stern is being swept on the water if the boat is moving sidewards as it should. Actually the bow is also being swept. I tried both directions with my Explorer at the currents workshop, and found that edging toward the paddle was more efficient.

[EEL]

However, if you are edging toward the paddle (deck facing the paddle), the stern is being swept on the water if the boat is moving sidewards as it should.

Bob:

I don't know what you mean by being swept. Do you mean the deck is digging into the water and opposing the sideward motion?

Ed Lawson

[...]

Before I begin, I need to state that the hanging draw has always been my weakest stroke. That being the case, I have tried many different methods. I now like the no edge approach. I find the boat tends to "skate" across the water in a manner similar to the sculling draw which I have always tried to perform with no edge.

So perhaps we now have three options to consider!

Warren

[Pintail]

Pru (and Warren), if you get into the BCU way of doing things (it is a really good means of judging your progress), you will be taught to experiment and see which way suits your boat best -- some draw sideways better with edge <up> and some draw better with edge <down>; but you will certainly be expected to show edging, so your flat or level sculling draw, Warren, will hardly suffice, I regret to say.

I suspect that sculling your boat sideways <without> any edging is inefficient because you are trying to draw a larger <volume> (displaced) of kayak through the water, when compared with one edged -- think about it!

[EEL]

So perhaps we now have three options to consider!

Indeed. Different boats, different response. Which is why just messing around can be so valuable. Never a good thing to think a specific technique is THE correct one.

Ed Lawson

[rylevine]

Hi Ed,

What I meant by "swept" is that, by edging towards the paddle, the edge of the stern is moving on the water with the sideways motion rather than "pinning" or diving into the water. You can think of the stern as a laying sideways and sweeping the water, although in reality that would be an extreme edging angle. We motivate the edging for bow rudder, stern draw, stern pry and etc by thinking about sweeping the stern. However, having said that, if I understand it correctly, low brace turns have the edge "pinning" the stern. I think in that case you are going to an extreme edge so these sweeping effects may be less important.

I agree with you and Christopher's suggestions to experiment with the boat in different circumstances.

Bob

[rick stoehrer]

i generally edge into the blade/strokes. the blades in the water on that side and i can quickly transition into support if i need it. opinions may vary.

on another note....surfing....eh, i do edge away from the blade sometimes...it can be very effective.

[Gcosloy]

It does seem logical however that edging away from the paddle side would be more efficient. Water tends to slip under the hull easier than against the chine and hull. On the other hand if you're in rough water-say breaking swells and you need to draw toward the swells you might feel more secure edging on that side. The quickest way to prevent a capsize during a hanging draw edging on the other side is probably the high brace and that has its own set of problems. This is just my own personal experience and some speculation. I'm always willing to let it "hang" out there and perhaps "draw" some critique.

[Lallen]

Also read another interesting thread elsewhere on the topic (think it was paddling.net. Consesus there was similar to all comments above-largely body and boat dependent. There was some discussion that the boat was less likely to turn while performing the stroke if you edged into the stroke (which had to do with what happens to the stern as Bob described above).

[kate]

I'm a bit muddled by the actual usefulness of this move. Like Rick S., I do use it when surfing, edging away from the paddle (thank you Lorrie and Phil for teaching me that one). Surfing is a situation where a fine correction is useful. And it's fun to practice the move for boat control. But honestly I would never use it in rough water. I mean - for what? It's inherently pretty unstable. A sweep stroke will do in those situations. No precision required. So.... enlighten me?

[rick stoehrer]

kate -

i disagree with a hanging draw being inherently unstable - especially if you're edging blade side. you're SO close to a high brace in that position - it's a reflexive no brainer if you do have an "oops" moment.

and it's a completely different stroke and accomplishes a very different motion than a sweep stroke. sweeps move the bow/stern and draws move the whole boat sideways. there are times in rough water when we'll all need ot move the boats sieways, especially in rough water - cause rough water is where you're likely to need to do a rescue, right? not everyone has the courtesy to capsize in calm water. while i see your point about the sweep accomplishing some of what you need to do, mastering a good solid draw in conditions does you and the folks you're liable to rescue a world of good.

besides, moving the boat around and linking strokes is just kinda fun...you're own little ballet.

[EEL]

there are times in rough water when we'll all need ot move the boats sieways, especially in rough water - cause rough water is where you're likely to need to do a rescue, right?

Seems to me a really good test of a person's boat handling skills is how quickly they can put their boat in position for a rescue. Often a variety of strokes in a variety of combinations is needed. I sometimes think the point is not to learn to perform/demo pretty strokes, but to provide tools you creatively use as the need arises. As Rick suggests perhaps the goal is to be able to link/blend strokes to create the dance you want.

I enjoy using a hanging draw to avoid all those PMCIs one finds in some locations while paddling along.

[rick stoehrer]

dancing with your water partner is more fun than battling with her. you almost never win the fight....she's way bigger, and i swear she don't feel a thing.

[kate]

kate -

i disagree with a hanging draw being inherently unstable - especially if you're edging blade side. you're SO close to a high brace in that position - it's a reflexive no brainer if you do have an "oops" moment.

and it's a completely different stroke and accomplishes a very different motion than a sweep stroke. sweeps move the bow/stern and draws move the whole boat sideways. there are times in rough water when we'll all need ot move the boats sieways, especially in rough water - cause rough water is where you're likely to need to do a rescue, right? not everyone has the courtesy to capsize in calm water. while i see your point about the sweep accomplishing some of what you need to do, mastering a good solid draw in conditions does you and the folks you're liable to rescue a world of good.

besides, moving the boat around and linking strokes is just kinda fun...you're own little ballet.

I can see using a sculling draw to move the whole boat sideways (I shoulda said that instead of the sweep - you are right, they do two different things). Paddle and boat are engaged on the same side that way. That hanging draw, though, (which works best for me with boat edged away from paddle) does feel unstable with a lean away from the side where the paddle is in the water. It would simply not occur to me to use it in rough water. (Rescue victims beware, I guess!) For dancing, however, it's a lovely step.

And thanks, Pru, for bringing up the subject. As usual, in the NSPN forum, there's much to say about it

[Suz]

Draw stroke is my favorite stroke and so I have given lots of thought to it.

Edging toward the paddle is more efficient for the body - you can reach the water more easily.

Edging away from the paddle is more efficient for the boat - it presents less of an edge to the water and allows it to slip under the boat more easily.

A draw stroke (regardless of whether it is a moving draw/hanging draw or when the boat is still) does not do what the sweep stroke does - used for different purposes. The sweep acts on the bow of the boat and is a turning stroke. The draw stroke, when done in your boat's "sweet spot" (which moves depending on your momentum/speed) moves the whole boat towards the paddle blade.

A draw stroke that is done with a flattened blade (relative to the surface of the water), is less effective at moving the boat towards the blade but more effective at keeping the paddler upright. Really that goes for all strokes - any stroke can be made more effective at keeping you upright (support) or more effective at providing power (regardless of direction).

Experiment with all methods while underway - edge towards the blade, away from the blade. Try w/ flat boat and at the hip, try moving the blade forwards from the hip or back towards the stern - not enough in either way to call the stroke by it's different name - bow rudder or stern rudder, just enough to change the way it pulls the boat. When you can make the boat do an S curve while underway with just the draw stroke placement, then you know you have mastered it.

[rfolster]

I would like to jump in here since I just recently learned about the hanging draw and am confused (still so much to learn!!). We were learning and practicing bow rudders where you edge away from the blade which allows the boat to turn easier. I was then told to move from the bow rudder to a hanging draw with no mention of dropping off edge. Now learning here that the purpose of a hanging draw is to move the boat sideways and not to turn, it does not seem to make sense to transition from a bow rudder to a hanging draw. Is this new revelation of mine correct or am I missing something else? Also, if edging the boat turns it, and the hanging draw is to move sideways, wouldn't it make sense to remain neutral as Warren posted so as to not contradict the intent of the stroke? I can't wait to get on the water and work on the different rolling....er, edging methods.

[MPARSONS]

I would like to jump in here since I just recently learned about the hanging draw and am confused (still so much to learn!!). We were learning and practicing bow rudders where you edge away from the blade which allows the boat to turn easier. I was then told to move from the bow rudder to a hanging draw with no mention of dropping off edge. Now learning here that the purpose of a hanging draw is to move the boat sideways and not to turn, it does not seem to make sense to transition from a bow rudder to a hanging draw. Is this new revelation of mine correct or am I missing something else? Also, if edging the boat turns it, and the hanging draw is to move sideways, wouldn't it make sense to remain neutral as Warren posted so as to not contradict the intent of the stroke? I can't wait to get on the water and work on the different rolling....er, edging methods.

I don't think you are missing anything. I think it is very boat dependent. In my very hard chined Shadow, I find that any edging starts the boat turning. To do a clean hanging draw I need to keep the boat on zero edge. An alternative would be to edge and then counteract the turning tendency by changing the pivot point. That is to say, I could move the paddle further back when I'm on the outside edge, almost to the point of being a stern draw. Causing the boat to pull in two different directions feels less efficient to me that keeping the edge neutral. That is less of an issue when I'm paddling a different boat, but now I have the habit of not edging on my moving/hanging draws.

Like you, I often switch from a bow rudder to a hanging draw. I might turn toward a target, then slide sideways to get closer to it, then finish with a stern sweep to bring me back to parallel to my starting position. To do so I go from edge, to no edge, to edge.

[Phil Allen]

..... Also, if edging the boat turns it, and the hanging draw is to move sideways, wouldn't it make sense to remain neutral as Warren posted so as to not contradict the intent of the stroke? I can't wait to get on the water and work on the different rolling....er, edging methods.

In my experience, edging away from the paddle side feels more stable, but is more likely to result in a subtle turning action, not a perfect side slip. Paddle pulls right, boat edge drives right (for example). Dropping the paddle side edge felt less stable (before I got the Cetus with it's extreme stability), but was more likely to have the boat go straight. Opposing actions of paddle driving one way, edge driving another.

As for use, I find it quite nice to keep me positioned in slots with moving water.

Phil

[jason]

I don't think you are missing anything. I think it is very boat dependent. In my very hard chined Shadow, I find that any edging starts the boat turning. To do a clean hanging draw I need to keep the boat on zero edge. An alternative would be to edge and then counteract the turning tendency by changing the pivot point. That is to say, I could move the paddle further back when I'm on the outside edge, almost to the point of being a stern draw. Causing the boat to pull in two different directions feels less efficient to me that keeping the edge neutral. That is less of an issue when I'm paddling a different boat, but now I have the habit of not edging on my moving/hanging draws.

Like you, I often switch from a bow rudder to a hanging draw. I might turn toward a target, then slide sideways to get closer to it, then finish with a stern sweep to bring me back to parallel to my starting position. To do so I go from edge, to no edge, to edge.

Mark,

I have had luck with my edging away with the paddle just behind my hip in my shadow. It's worth playing with, I think that you will find that once you find the sweet spot you can make the boat move much farther faster when it's on edge.

I don't be at Walden this week, but if you are at Walden on the 18th I would be glad to demo it.

-Jason

[prudenceb]

Thanks to everyone for thoughts on this - and Suz, I really like the idea of working to do an S curve to know you've mastered it.

pru

[Pintail]

Someone wrote something along the lines of "why would you want to modify a bow rudder into a draw stroke", I think? Easy to answer that one: suppose you are practising bow rudders and you are doing it in the vicinity of expensive motorboats (like those moored in the Annisquam) and your turn is bringing you too close to an obstacle (a dirty, great sixty-foot monstrosity!), you very well might move your paddle backwards to become a draw stroke...

Someone far wiser and more experienced than I has said that there are no real different strokes -- merely one on the left and one on the right! If one practises (and practises more) every time one is on the water, soon enough they <do> meld...truly...perhaps this is one reason I love rockplay -- all bow rudders and draw strokes -- it is such good practice.

[Phil Allen]

For those of you that get it, the latest Ocean Paddler magazine has an nice article "sideways on the move", p32. As always, a nice analysis of the various details and pretty pictures as well.

Phil