Measuring paddle length

[kevinfre]

I've been poking around the Web trying to find out how paddle shaft length is defined. No luck yet, but based on measuring my existing paddle, I assume it's from the base of one blade to the midpoint of the shaft (in centimeters). Is that right? That would make my current paddle a 210, which is at least in the right neighborhood (I'm 6 feet tall).

I'm asking because I might get another paddle and I can't remember what size my current one is.

Thanks,

Kevin

[Gcosloy]

Kevin, I believe paddle length is measured from the tip or end of one blade to the other. They are usually expressed in cm but or sometimes inches for greenland paddles.

[rick stoehrer]

I've been poking around the Web trying to find out how paddle shaft length is defined. No luck yet, but based on measuring my existing paddle, I assume it's from the base of one blade to the midpoint of the shaft (in centimeters). Is that right? That would make my current paddle a 210, which is at least in the right neighborhood (I'm 6 feet tall).

I'm asking because I might get another paddle and I can't remember what size my current one is.

Thanks,

Kevin

gene is correct - blade tip to blade tip....210 cm is 6.89 feet...just shy of 7 feet...which, if your 6 feet tall you can stand next to and probably see that it's a bit over your head.

if it were 210 cm from base of blade to midpoint of shaft...well, that'd be veeeery long.

[kevinfre]

My bad - when I wrote down my existing paddle length, I added a digit where there shouldn't be one. My current paddle is a 220. Thanks for the reality check.

Kevin

[konstantin_art]

Hello Kevin,

I don’t think you should wary too much about the length of your current paddle.

I know the manufacturers should imprint/engrave this measurement somewhere on the paddle, but alas they don’t. At least Werner does not.

You can always measure your paddle against someone else’s paddle with a known length –like me.

Bent or strait shaft does not matter –the blades of two paddles with identical length should be at the same height.

I suggest you try out other peoples’ paddles and determine what works for you.

Focus on type of paddle (surface and geometry) and make/materials; not length.

Based on your high-angle style (from what I see) you need a short paddle.

The trick is that you have to determine the length yourself.

Don’t go with recommendations for your height; go with what feels right in your hands.

Find it and then ask the person from whom you borrowed it how long it is.

Paddle length recommendations should be based NOT on person’s height (or the kayak’s width), but based on how long his torso is and how long his arms are.

For example, two paddlers whose height difference is 6 inches might need the same length paddle, IF their torsos are the same length. Which translates in the taller person having freakishly long legs (some call this sexy; I call them Spiderman!).

Another consideration for choosing the right length is to monitor how deep your blades are in the water during the pulling/rotation phase of your paddle stroke (at the very same time you are “reading your watch†with your upper hand).

If you submerge the blade past its neck (and part of the shaft is underwater) you are wasting energy and thus you need a shorter paddle.

Bottom line, don’t go by manufacturers’ recommendation; go by what feels right in your hands and what propels your kayak with the least amount of energy applied!

I hope this helps.

Greetings,

Konstantin

[tyson]

My previous kayaks were taller and wider than what I paddle now. I now prefer a shorter paddle than I did for my previous boat.

Lesson: The paddle needs to fit the paddler/boat combination.

[Michael_Crouse]

"Another consideration for choosing the right length is to monitor how deep your blades are in the water during the pulling/rotation phase of your paddle stroke (at the very same time you are “reading your watch†with your upper hand).

If you submerge the blade past its neck (and part of the shaft is underwater) you are wasting energy and thus you need a shorter paddle."

This is excellent advice!

You can figure out the shaft and paddle length if you check the manufacturers websites and look up the blade length.

Lets say you have a vertical stroke and your stroke isn't going to change when you get your new paddle.

So if you're using a Werner Camano 220cm look up the blade length, then figure out the shaft length.

Now figure out how much of the shaft you are (or are not) getting into the water at the start of the stroke.

Lets say it's 5cm underwater at the start of your stroke, this means your paddle is 10cm too long.

But if you order a 210cm Shuna the shaft will actually be longer than your 220cm Camano.

The Camano blade is 54cm vs Shuna blade is 46cm so if you order a 210 cm Werner Shuna the shaft will be 118cm long, on a 220cm Camano the shaft is 112cm long.

So according to my reasoning a vertical stroke with a 220cm Camano (that is 10 cm too long) would call for a 194cm Shuna.

I'm sure some will debate this theory but in my world it makes perfect sense

[tyson]

I'm sure some will debate this theory but in my world it makes perfect sense

I believe it is typical/correct for a steep angle paddle to be shorter than a shallow angle one.

[subaruguru]

You're all correct. But I'll add that using identical SHAFT lengths doesn't guarantee similar performance across blade shapes, even if SHAFT immersion depths are identical, as the DISTANCE OF THE CENTER OF THE SURFACE of the blade will determine the felt resistance when stroking.

Michael's example of the Shuna and Camano is correct, except that because some of the surface area of the LONGER Camano blade is further from the center of rotation than the Shuna, the effort to paddle the Camano will be GREATER (assuming the surface area of both blades is the same). To compensate for this the Shuna can be a LITTLE longer (maybe 200cm in this example) in order to have the same felt power and resistance as the Camano.

The choice becomes even more complicated with BENT shafts when deciding to have a similar pair with different blades. Does one get identical shaft lengths in order to have identical hand position geometry? In my case that would mean a 220 Ikelos (high surface area) shaft = a 215 Cyprus (medium surface area) shaft. But that would yield a HUGE difference in paddling resistance between two "sister" paddles. The opposite logic of getting a 215 Ikelos and a longer 220 Cyprus would probably yield nearly identical paddling resistances (given as a function of surface area times distance). Yet the hand positions would be different and the Cyprus blade would perhaps be buried too deep, or the Ikelos not enough.

One needs to balance blade surface area and shaft length to arrive at the correct geometry, generally, but not necessarily arriving at the "end of blade immersion" as an ultimate goal.

Indeed the vastly different geometry of a purely low-angle blade like the Camano/Kalliste may result in a VERY different immersion geometry than a pure high-angle design.

I tried using the "equal shaft" criteria when buying a second bent Werner, but then had to adjust 5cm because having a shorter overall-length because of smaller spoons (blades) was just not enough bite in the water. This is indeed subtle stuff, requiring empirical confirmation. The best choice usually lands in between the "equal total length" and "equal shaft length" calculations, especially if surface areas differ and CENTER of surface area distances differ.

Hope this helps.

[tyson]

...or you could go over to the dark side and try a stick.

[lhunt]

You also might find it interesting to run yourself through Epic's Paddle Wizard.

[subaruguru]

I thought of mentioning the Epic Wizard too. I bought a Mid-Wing a couple of years ago, starting at 218cm. After a few trips across a season's use I found myself dialing it down incrementally to 214.

This year I tried the new "improved" Wizard and found that it nailed me with a recommendation of exactly 214! Quite amazing.

[djlewis]

I thought of mentioning the Epic Wizard too. I bought a Mid-Wing a couple of years ago, starting at 218cm. After a few trips across a season's use I found myself dialing it down incrementally to 214.

This year I tried the new "improved" Wizard and found that it nailed me with a recommendation of exactly 214! Quite amazing.

I tried the wizard, and it suggested a mid-wing or small mid-wing for *all* combinations of inputs, except checking "maneuvering" vs "forward paddling". Even "both" still got me a mid-wing. All other factors were irrelevant.

Sorry, but that is not a valid algorithm. They are just trying to sell their (probably more expensive) mid-wing paddles. They should at least suggest either/or wing/standard when I check "both maneuvering and forward paddling".

Or maybe I should ignore the style and just look at the length, which came out 215, which is what I paddle in a Kalliste. But hey, as folks above point out, the length should vary quite a bit based on the blade geometry. For example, in a Cyprus, I should probably go 205, I have been advised. The Epic wizard has nothing on blade geometry except wing vs standard. But that's apparently their line.

Bottom line -- it's very Epic-specific. I'm sticking to Werner. I'm going to try a Cyprus against my Kalliste as soon as I can get down to CRCK.

[subaruguru]

Bottom line -- it's very Epic-specific. I'm sticking to Werner. I'm going to try a Cyprus against my Kalliste as soon as I can get down to CRCK.

David,

I have a bent Cyprus 215 you can try anytime. It has the amazing quietness and "ease" of the Kalliste, but of course in high-angle. The Ikelos is more powerful, but louder and gets to my tendons.

I'm not surprised that the Epic's software is calibrated to their wings; what I found fascinating is that the length calculations seem to be right on FOR the Mid-Wing, matching my best-fit evolution exactly. Pretty cool.

Ern

[Brian Nystrom]

Gee, it looks like I'll never find a good home for the 230cm Camano that's been gathering dust in my basement since I switched to sticks years ago.

[tyson]

How about my 230 Coryvreken that has bee collecting dust since I picked up a stick?

[Michael_Crouse]

Is the Coryvreken that large foam core beast of a paddle?

Brian you can probably sell the Camano to someone with a rec kayak who uses a low angle stroke.

[tyson]

Is the Coryvreken that large foam core beast of a paddle?

Not quite. The Ikelos is the foam core variant. The Corryvrecken is the fiberglass version, same size. And, yes, it is a large beast that puts a LOT of power to the water.

[jdkilroy]

There would be no difference in length when switching between a Cyprus and an Ikelos. These are both intended for a "high angle" paddling style. You would not change your paddling style when switching between these two paddles; you would feel less resistance with the Cyprus due to less surface area but that could be a good thing if you are looking to reduce shoulder stress, increase your stroke rate etc.

Paddle length changes are appropriate when switching between high and low angle paddling styles.

[djlewis]

There would be no difference in length when switching between a Cyprus and an Ikelos. These are both intended for a "high angle" paddling style. You would not change your paddling style when switching between these two paddles; you would feel less resistance with the Cyprus due to less surface area but that could be a good thing if you are looking to reduce shoulder stress, increase your stroke rate etc.

Paddle length changes are appropriate when switching between high and low angle paddling styles.

After watching this discussion, I just wanna say...

Most people's forward strokes are so far from optimal, that the differences we are talking about across paddling styles, blade shapes and paddle lengths are almost always minor compared to the improvements one could make in technique. In fact, if your stroke is as sub-optimal as most people's, it's not clear that the paddle-style rules will apply to you at all.

Well, that's not really true for paddle length -- you should get that more or less right, though I'm skeptical for most paddlers that they can detect 1-4 cm differences.

But as for shapes, whether one or another is for high or low angle paddling is a nuance that is way beyond what most people can detect and/or take advantage of. It's like the cardio ranges -- one for fat burning, one for muscle building, one for building endurance, etc. Fact is, all ranges build muscle, burn fat and build endurance. The slopes of the fat, muscle and endurance curves for that just vary a bit from range to range, and that applies mainly when you are working at a really high level, which few people are.

Likewise, there is absolutely no problem using a "low angle" paddle for "high angle" style and vice-versa. There are minor variations in efficiency which, as I said, are way below the variations due to lack of optimal paddling technique.

Yes, a bigger blade is more stress on shoulders, so if you have a shoulder problem (like me, from an old bicycling injury), you should stick to the less bite-y paddles. And my choice there, in the Werner line, is definitely a Kalliste, which is incredibly smooth and turbulence-free in the water, when used well.

Did you know, by the way, that the Kalliste has greater surface area than a Cyprus? In other words, with a Cyrus over a Kalliste you are giving up long-term power for bursts of acceleration. Maybe that's right for surfing and training for quick rescues, but not most of the paddling we do. And even that difference is small. I'm sure it's bigger for an Ikelos, but my shoulder would be out of commission after three days with that paddle -- I know because I tried a Lightning before happily settling on the Kalliste years ago (and thanks to Jed for that!).

--David

[subaruguru]

There would be no difference in length when switching between a Cyprus and an Ikelos.

Jon,

Since paddles are measured in TOTAL length, you're technically correct. The important misunderstanding is that since the Ikelos and Cyprus BLADES are different lengths, in order for the TOTAL lengths to be the same then of course the SHAFTS have to be different, which results in a possible change in hand position geometry with "bent" shafts.

If one matches bent shafts' lengths and then adds Cyprus, Ikelos and Kalliste blades, there'll be three different total lengths, but perhaps ALL will be appropriate for that paddler!

(Indeed, in flat-water low angle touring, a 215 Ikelos, 220 Cyprus, and 230 Kalliste all feel pretty similar in resistance and power.)

The subtlety between matching the similar shape but different surface area size Cyprus and Ikelos

allows selecting either equal total length, wherein the Cyprus' shorter blades are "pushed" out to the length of the Ikelos', thus providing slightly more power, or selecting equal shaft length, wherein the shorter, and thus "closer in" Cyprus blade becomes easier to paddle BOTH because it's smaller AND a shorter lever arm. Indeed a "short" Cyprus might feel too easy; a "longer" one (equaling an Ikelos TOTAL length) would have more resistance (and powe), but still less than an Ikelos. Then an even more subtle comparison exists between a slightly LONGER Cyprus paddle and a shorter Ikelos, where paddling resistance may be equal, but other handling criteria come to bear, as noted by others.

David,

You're being wonderfully old-world devil's advocate here, indeed. But a skinny long-enough low-angle Kalliste (my first paddle too!), although amazingly quiet and flutter-free for skimming along long flat distances, esp in a high winds, just feels balky and awkward for the higher-angle slicing and dicing we often experience. Its efficiency drops because of the extra time it takes to bury a long blade when held at a higher angle, of course (the raison d'etre for high angle short fat blades).

You and I will continue our debate over dinner soon, I'm sure, if our spouses tolerate us!

And given your sore shoulder, let's hope the Kallistes' tender nature keeps you paddling.

Others,

I think only the Jasons of this world can power a Corryvrecken. The combo of its large surface area and moderate weight make it a brute used generally just for powerful sprints. What's so interesting is that when foam core is added, and weight shaved, the added buoyancy and lightness make its upscale sister the Ikelos a wonderful paddle to use, especially in "conditions".

Just make sure you pick one short enough to prevent tendinitis, but long enough so that the deep blades don't whack your hull too often!

However, I find the Ikelos a bit too much in the spring, as tendinitis sets in after a while. Hence the Cyprus as my seasonal warm-up paddle, or anytime if conditions are soft and a more relaxing paddle is at hand. Indeed, Werner's aim with the Cyprus (and cheaper Shuna) was to create a new "favorite" paddle for most folks in between the old style Kalliste/Camano extra-long low angle and the extra-large Ikelos/Corry.

Hence that old Corry may be hard to sell, but I agree that a 230 Camano is a nice low-angle beginner/intermediate paddle for flat-water, injured paddler, or really wide boat use. And maby it's great for tandems? That's beyond my experience, but regardless it's easily resold to novices.

Sorry to be pedantic, but folks should understand that paddling "force" is the product of the length of the CENTER of the blade's surface area from the center of rotation, AND the blade's TOTAL surface area, all other criteria being equal. So if two shapes are the same, but one is bigger, keeping it closer can equalize. If shapes are wildly dissimilar, it helps to actually MEASURE their centers and calculate total paddle length as necessary to provide equal resistance, THEN finetune for paddling technique, like geometry and cadence. "How can a 215 feel like a 230" you ask? Well if the former's an Ikelos and the latter a Kalliste, just do the math for starts. I need a cup of coffee....

[subaruguru]

"...though I'm skeptical for most paddlers that they can detect 1-4 cm differences."

Couldn't resist, David. Vague memories of physiological and perceptual psych classes state that most folks, with only a few trials, can easily perceive correctly jnd's (just noticeable differences) of 5%, at least for linear scale measurements like weight, height, and length. For other physical phenomenon like light and sound the scale is of course of a higher order, like lumens (?) or dB.

For example, most folks can pretty reliably determine which sack of potatoes weight 9.5 or 10 pounds, a 5% difference. Or an egg 5% larger than another. So it's easy to agree with your perspective of the myth of "false" sensitivity.

But indeed, if a human is trained repeatedly on the same task, differential sensisitivity becomes much more finely honed. I agree that a novice kayaker can just barely tell the difference between a 220 and 230 paddle (5%), but most intermediates can perceive 5cm (2 1/2%) differences pretty readily. I'll admit that I don't believe I could perceive, nor therefore readily pick correctly between experimental pairs only 1cm paddle total lengths apart, but I'm pretty sure I could notice the alternate drops (2cm total, or 1%), as I dropped from 218 to 212, then back up to 214.

If you doubt me, let me know the next time you dance with Deb if you can't tell whether she's wearing inch and a half heels (+2% taller) or is barefoot!

And I'll bet you FEEL different if you gain or lose 3 lbs (c. 2%), eh?

I realize that the subtle paddle length test is not possible with the fixed Werners, but if you borrow an adjustable-length paddle like an Epic wing you'll be surprised at your ability to discriminate inch or less (2cm) increments. And if you really can't I'll buy dessert!

[jdkilroy]

Before continuing further with misconceptions...

Place an Ikelos and a Cyprus bent shaft paddle side by side (say 210 cm). The two paddles are identical in overall length AND the shaft geometries are identical until you get past/outside the area where your hands would be. Hand placement on the two paddles is unaffected or identical for a given paddle length.

Jon

[EEL]

Random comments from the Peanut Gallery.

I am reminded of the saying, "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is."

Maybe it is due to the fact I'm a wimp and luddite, but seems to me there are a few characteristics of paddles besides weight, length, and "power" that are rather important to someone who uses them in a variety of circumstances.

Ed Lawson

[rick stoehrer]

Random comments from the Peanut Gallery.

I am reminded of the saying, "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is."

Maybe it is due to the fact I'm a wimp and luddite, but seems to me there are a few characteristics of paddles besides weight, length, and "power" that are rather important to someone who uses them in a variety of circumstances.

Ed Lawson

...and as everyone knows, if you have "intestinal wobble" all you need to do is get a different boat. clearly it's all about the gear.

blah, blah, blah, blah...go paddle a boat.