Turning Techniques in strong wind

[brambor]

What would be the best technique to turn a boat around when paddling into a 30mph wind in choppy waves?

[Gcosloy]

What would be the best technique to turn a boat around when paddling into a 30mph wind in choppy waves?

If you need to turn into a downwind situation edge to one side and sweep and follow with a stern rudder on the other side. The sweep will allow the wind to move the bow in the right direction while the rudder will counter against the wind pushing the stern in the wrong direction.

[PeterB]

If you need to turn into a downwind situation edge to one side and sweep and follow with a stern rudder on the other side. The sweep will allow the wind to move the bow in the right direction while the rudder will counter against the wind pushing the stern in the wrong direction.

Wrong!

Just paddle backwards. You'll be pointed downwind pretty quickly.

[NPSheehan]

Sweep strokes are not efficient and do not work very well when turning a sea kayak around in strong winds. Back paddling as Peter mentioned works because you are locking in the stern by placing more lateral resistance at the rear of the kayak and the bow moves downwind "leecock" a stern rudder/draw could be used as well. Same type of technique works if you lock the bow with a bow rudder on the windy side if you want to turn into the wind "weathercock" using a bit of edging will shorten the water line and make the kayak turn quicker. You can use your skeg to help in turning downwind or upwind

Here is a good article on the subject

http://kayak-skills.kayaklakemead.com/skeg.html

Neil

[Brian Nystrom]

You may want to invest in Nigel Foster's video on the subject (Vol. #3 in his series) or take his "wind and waves" course. Both will teach you about the dynamics of boats, wind and waves and the most effective way to turn your boat in a variety of wind directions.

[brambor]

Thanks Brian,

I will check into the video.

I usually can't take these high profile classes because of my intermittent schedules

and few other rea$on$.

I think I would enjoy a 'local' 1 on 1 session that would take only an hour or so but would occur several times over the course of the season.

I also have tried and will continue so to go out when it's rougher during ONSHORE wind and try to get a feel for the maneuvering. In case of extreme problems I figure I'll just get blown back to shore. In these conditions, I don't play too far from the shore anyway.

You may want to invest in Nigel Foster's video on the subject (Vol. #3 in his series) or take his "wind and waves" course. Both will teach you about the dynamics of boats, wind and waves and the most effective way to turn your boat in a variety of wind directions.

[EEL]

What would be the best technique to turn a boat around when paddling into a 30mph wind in choppy waves?

Don't know if you are having a particular problem, don't know your boat, your paddle, etc. so I'll just suggest you find a day with strong onshore winds without much swell and just play with your boat as in "boxing the compass" to see what works and what does not for traveling at different points of wind and for changing directions. Suspect you will discover what works with your boat and your paddle. You may find that being able to effectively use your paddle in winds is a major factor in getting boat to do what you want.

My limited experience is that problems arise when you cannot make way well as you lose ability to turn/hold course, boat will tend to lie abeam to wind and it becomes hard to point up or down. Getting "pinned" abeam is not a nice situation with steep breaking waves nor is inability to prevent being forced downwind. Paddling backwards which involves strokes with a bracing component can then be your friend as Peter says. Boats can differ quite a bit in how they behave once the wind gets in the 25Kt range and they may take on a different personality. Best to find out before getting home depends on knowing its personality.

From the soapbox/peanut gallery, I believe having a low windage boat and a GP can make life much easier in a blow. Also I'd rather have a boat that weathercocks in light wind and is more neutral in a blow than a boat that does not weathercock in light winds, but cannot hold a course in a blow.

Ed Lawson

[Pintail]

Lots of sound advice above, Brambor; in addition, try to utilize the tops of waves for your turning manoevre: both ends of your boat will then be "unlocked", as it were. (This assumes there is wind-driven swell, I daresay...)

The one thing you need is plenty of practice in conditions, by the sound of it, so go out in company and have fun.

[brambor]

Don't know if you are having a particular problem, don't know your boat, your paddle

I don't necessarily think I am having a particular problem because I don't have much of a baseline to compare it to. Most of the time I do not paddle with a group because of scheduling conflicts but the experience of paddling in a group will increase with time. Only then I will have some idea of what is a problem and what is a normal occurrence on dealing with wind and waves. In the meantime I'm trying to learn as much as I can.

I definitely think I do NOT know my boat enough. The bronco isn't tamed yet but we're working on a mutual relationship. It is a tricky boat and I like the challenge. I have one boat that is less twitchy but in general I do not use that one unless I really desire primary stability. Every once in a while when I get humbled by my Nordkapp or my Q-Boat I think about returning to my Seda Ikkuma to settle down. :-) But the comfort curve is increasing with time and that is encouraging to me.

, etc. so I'll just suggest you find a day with strong onshore winds without much swell and just play with your boat

Mission accomplished. I do that and plan to do that in the future with paddling against an onshore wind, paddling along a surfing beach, surfing and practicing execution of braces in tricky environment.

as in "boxing the compass"

What is that?

to see what works and what does not for traveling at different points of wind and for changing directions. Suspect you will discover what works with your boat and your paddle. You may find that being able to effectively use your paddle in winds is a major factor in getting boat to do what you want.

I think this is where I could use instruction. I would like to see and learn from accomplished paddler on what kinds of strokes and leans to use under various conditions.

Although I am now rolling my boat (most of the time) I find my competence in choosing the right stroke for a given skill element to be severely lacking.

I plan to attend the SMSKN weekday skill sessions. I hope to make all of them. I also would like to attend weekday surfing sessions that Sal was running in Hampton last year. I hope that those will happen again this year.

Thanks for the helpful responses.

[rick stoehrer]

in this instance boxing the compass means paddling the boat N, S, E and W in the windy conditions you're talking about and seeing what you need to do in order to turn your boat effectively in each.

options include

committing to your lean and sweep stroke - difficult

same, extended paddle (poo-poo'd really but can be effective!) - still difficult

paddling backward and edge a bit - that'll bring the bow about one way or the other - easy.

using the tops of the waves to unlock the bow and turning on top...then with the bow out of the water, the wind can help you as will the "push" of any swell (30 knots...there's likely something going on with the surface) - little less difficult.

you wanna go play in wind? email me. we'll go play in wind.

[EEL]

What is that?

Bad choice of phrase. What I meant to convey was simply start paddling in one direction, change direction by say 45 degrees to starboard, paddle a distance, and then repeat until you are paddling in original direction so you have paddled with wind and waves hitting you from essentially all directions.

To follow up on Sir. Christopher's advice, playing with timing of strokes relative to waves is also instructive.

Ed Lawson

[spuglisi]

What is that?

I plan to attend the SMSKN weekday skill sessions. I hope to make all of them. I also would like to attend weekday surfing sessions that Sal was running in Hampton last year. I hope that those will happen again this year.

Renee,

I think what Ed was refering to (boxing the compass) was getting out on the water, in the wind, and play around with pointing your bow in varius directions to the wind so you can get a better idea for how it reacts to differing wind directions.

As for the Tuesday surf sessions....although I attend most of them, the credit for organizing them goes to Bill Harter and Cathy Foley. That said, I intend to be out there regularly, probably starting by the beginning of June. Look forward to seeing you out there.

[Gcosloy]

Maybe 5 years ago when I was relatively new to this sport a bunch of us were out in Casco Bay and the wind whipped up to 17 with gusts to 25. I was drifting perilously close to the rocks and found my sweep was almost useless heading into the wind. After safely making land one of the veterans gave me a tip which was to lean and execute a sweeping high brace starting near the stern and finishing at the cockpit. It works and gets you off the rocks quickly.

[brambor]

Hi Gene

Which way did you lean and turn? With the hull to the wind?

[Gcosloy]

Hi Gene

Which way did you lean and turn? With the hull to the wind?

Well in my case the wind was either on the port beam or quartering and the rocks were on the starboard side. Sweeping on the starboard side had no real effect. Leaning with a high sweeping stern brace on the port side got us off the rocks real quick, pointing up toward the wind. It is a desperate measure because it slows forward motion to a stall.

[scamlin]

You may want to invest in Nigel Foster's video on the subject (Vol. #3 in his series) or take his "wind and waves" course. Both will teach you about the dynamics of boats, wind and waves and the most effective way to turn your boat in a variety of wind directions.

I second Brian's recommendation: the DVD is call Directional Control and as the title implies, it covers the basic principles and techniques for turning in different wind directions. Based on the course Nigel used to deliver for NSPN. Changed my whole understanding of why boats behave the way they do and what to do about it.

Try http://www.nigelkayaks.com/857.html and scroll down for a description. Or we could have a video party some night.

Available widely including paddling.net and Amazon.

Scott

[Paul Sylvester]

Hi Gene

Which way did you lean and turn? With the hull to the wind?

I would prefer to lean forward ie: elbow on forward deck and sweep stroke to pull the bow around. For a novice you might want to keep the boat level at first in the wind. As you get comfortable with this you edge the same as in any sea kayak.

On another note: First weekend in June is the Rough Water Symposium in RI. Top notch coaches teaching in and around serious tidal races. Great chance to learn and expand your knowledge and have a great time with like minded people.

thanks,

[PeterB]

I would prefer to lean forward ie: elbow on forward deck and sweep stroke to pull the bow around. For a novice you might want to keep the boat level at first in the wind. As you get comfortable with this you edge the same as in any sea kayak.

On another note: First weekend in June is the Rough Water Symposium in RI. Top notch coaches teaching in and around serious tidal races. Great chance to learn and expand your knowledge and have a great time with like minded people.

thanks,

Renee,

To amplify Paul's comments:

I saw Greenland sticks in some of your posted photos. It's not pubilicized as such , but the Rough Water Symposium is a Greenland paddlers goldmine. Cheri Perry and Turner Wilson will be there; there's an opportunity to paddle with them in conditions, with a really low paddler-instructor ratio.

Awesome!

NSPN has an auction going for a discounted spot at the symposium. Go for it!

[Brian Nystrom]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the use of the boat's skeg, if it has one. A well designed boat/skeg combination will allow you to trim the boat's behavior from slight weathercocking to slight lee cocking.

For turning upwind, make sure the skeg is fully up and paddle forward. That unlocks the stern so it will swing downwind and point the bow into the wind, which is using "weathercocking" to your advantage.

For turning downwind, lowering the skeg fully will lock the stern and the wind will push the bow downwind, which is using "lee cocking" to your advantage. Combine it with a sweep stroke and/or bow rudder when paddling forward. If you drop the skeg and paddle backwards, the bow will swing downwind rapidly with minimal effort. The downside to dropping the skeg is that it also stiffens the tracking of the boat, making maneuvering strokes less effective.

[gyork]

You may want to invest in Nigel Foster's video on the subject ........

Board of Directors: please consider allocating funds to start a lending library, similar to SMSKN, based on honor system.

gary

[Phil Allen]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the use of the boat's skeg, if it has one. A well designed boat/skeg combination will allow you to trim the boat's behavior from slight weathercocking to slight lee cocking.

For turning upwind, make sure the skeg is fully up and paddle forward. That unlocks the stern so it will swing downwind and point the bow into the wind, which is using "weathercocking" to your advantage.

For turning downwind, lowering the skeg fully will lock the stern and the wind will push the bow downwind, which is using "lee cocking" to your advantage. Combine it with a sweep stroke and/or bow rudder when paddling forward. If you drop the skeg and paddle backwards, the bow will swing downwind rapidly with minimal effort. The downside to dropping the skeg is that it also stiffens the tracking of the boat, making maneuvering strokes less effective.

Brian's comments are spot on. Nice part is you can figure this out just sitting in your boat not going anywhere on a windy day. Raise the skeg, wait a few tens of seconds and see where the bow points. Drop the skeg a bit and observe, a bit more and observe, all the way down etc. Dont forget that loading stuff in the boat (front heavy/centered/stern heavy) as well as the strength of wind can change this dramatically. Depending on the boat, you can sometimes find different sensitivities by moving the paddler several inches forward or back, adjusting their placement with the backband, as well. It's all in getting to know your boat.

Phil

[JohnHuth]

I'm trying to think on how I usually handle this.

Sunday was pretty blustery - NOAA said it was a gale warning, so I figured it was a good time to practice where the wind would blow me to shore if I got into a pickle.

I found that maintaining some headway and using big sweeps would do the job in the most difficult of turns - you're off the wind a bit and then want to turn "through" the wind. That is to say - if the wind is from the South, and you're pointing to the SE, you want to turn to the SW, this is usually one of the more difficult turns in very windy conditions - for me at least.

In this case, I had my skeg up, and felt like what I was doing was sweeping my stern around as the bow was more "locked" by the forward motion.

The waves and wind made me cautious about edging and draw strokes, but I did mange to surf a few waves and work on the stern rudder.

[Phil Allen]

....

The waves and wind made me cautious about edging and draw strokes, but I did mange to surf a few waves and work on the stern rudder.

One thing that John's post brought to mind that can be helpful. As a beginner, they often teach one to sweep from side of boat to side of boat, or as close as one can reach. Reducing the sweep to about 90 degrees (45+/- from the side) increases the bracing component of the stroke and one's confidence to edge in conditions.

Phil

[JohnHuth]

One critical point here is that you need to maintain good headway and create a flow of water past your kayak. So, a normal or even in-board, stroke on the side you're turning into and a wide sweep on the side you're moving away from is effective. Keep in mind the idea that you're swinging your stern behind the wind and trying to "lock" the bow with forward motion.