Off-side Roll

[Gcosloy]

What's the consensus on trying to learn the off-side roll? I have a solid and reliable on-side roll that is ingrained into my muscle memory. When I attempt the off-side my upper body goes through the motions and my lower half thinks it's doing an on-side roll. Result: the boat is motionless upside down in the water. If I persist and finally overcome this unconscious kinesthetic bias will I be undermining my on-side roll? I'd appreciate hearing from those who have gone through this successfully as opposed to theoretical speculation.

[spuglisi]

What's the consensus on trying to learn the off-side roll? I have a solid and reliable on-side roll that is ingrained into my muscle memory. When I attempt the off-side my upper body goes through the motions and my lower half thinks it's doing an on-side roll. Result: the boat is motionless upside down in the water. If I persist and finally overcome this unconscious kinesthetic bias will I be undermining my on-side roll? I'd appreciate hearing from those who have gone through this successfully as opposed to theoretical speculation.

Gene,

Your onside roll should be ingrained enough that you won't mess it up. When I started learning my offside roll I'd conciously disengage the knee that I used for onside rolling from the thighbrace before I capsized. That way when I was under water I wouldn't be thinking about which knee to use rolling back up on the offside. If I didn't make it I'd re-engage the knee and come back up on my strong side...then give it another try. Just like learning on your strong side..persistance pays off.

[rick stoehrer]

Gene,

Your onside roll should be ingrained enough that you won't mess it up. When I started learning my offside roll I'd conciously disengage the knee that I used for onside rolling from the thighbrace before I capsized. That way when I was under water I wouldn't be thinking about which knee to use rolling back up on the offside. If I didn't make it I'd re-engage the knee and come back up on my strong side...then give it another try. Just like learning on your strong side..persistance pays off.

you won't mess up your strong side...once you sort out torquing over that offside blade and the angle, the rest of it falls into place easily enough.

just roll over...STOP. set up that blade and go.

[JohnHuth]

There actually was a study done about how quickly you can pick up a skill based on whether it's unilateral or bilateral (e.g. you do the same skill on your left and on your right). The study was done in Great Britain, as I recall and it used the Pawlata roll. The bottom line of the study was that people picked up the skill more rapidly if they tried to execute it on both left and right sides than if they only tried it on one side.

I always thought it was interesting that the people doing the study chose the Pawlata roll.

Anyway, I always work both sides, not because I wouldn't go to my onside automatically, but rather that it seems to help it in general.

(Pawlata = extended paddle roll - people like to start out with this quite often - end of blade held in one hand to get more extension - it's my "go-to" roll in hairy conditions or in a reentry and roll)

[PeterB]

I don't think there would ever be a consensus on such a topic. For some , learning to roll on the offside is easy; for some, its harder, and some just never manage to do it at all . My guess is that if you keep at it you'll master it, but it may take more or less time, and its a personal decision as to how much you either feel you really need an offside roll or how much you just want to meet the challenge of doing it.

An offside roll can be useful in some paddling situations, where rolling on one side is preferable to the other : in strong current (like a tidal race), in surf, and in enclosed areas such as a rock garden. if you do that kind of paddling, an offside roll can come in very handy; if you don't, its less important and more a question of how much you want to learn it as a challenge.

Pool sessions are the ideal place to mess around with such things.

[EEL]

What's the consensus on trying to learn the off-side roll?...If I persist and finally overcome this unconscious kinesthetic bias will I be undermining my on-side roll? I'd appreciate hearing from those who have gone through this successfully as opposed to theoretical speculation.

As others have said, I seriously doubt playing with off-side roll be detrimental to you on-side roll.

As one who struggles with this stuff a couple of suggestions. Emulate the "Greenland" approach for learning to roll by playing around with a sculling brace on the off-side. Once comfy doing that, then simply sweep forward, pause, let yourself sink, and sweep up. That may help with the where am I and what do I do now feeling. Part of the issue you mention might be "positional awareness" and playing around with going over in all sorts of weird ways so you have to set up for the roll by orienting yourself and the paddle after you are upside down should help. Playing around with a variety of rolls may help also to free the mind/body from being locked into one motion/technique for rolling.

My limited experience is the more you view it as just another stroke and the more you play around the easier it will be acquire different rolls on either side.

Ed Lawson

[djlewis]

What's the consensus on trying to learn the off-side roll? I have a solid and reliable on-side roll that is ingrained into my muscle memory. When I attempt the off-side my upper body goes through the motions and my lower half thinks it's doing an on-side roll. Result: the boat is motionless upside down in the water. If I persist and finally overcome this unconscious kinesthetic bias will I be undermining my on-side roll? I'd appreciate hearing from those who have gone through this successfully as opposed to theoretical speculation.

I had a similar problem -- maybe worse. What jumpstarted me on the offside was having someone stand in the water and guide my paddle and then move my boat slightly the way it was supposed to go for the offside. After a couple of times at that, I had enough muscle memory to do it myself, and then it was a matter of polishing. PS: My so-called offside is now my better side.

[tacomakayaker]

well, what got me to learn my off side roll was hanging upside down in a warm pond, doing my onside role, then trying a roll on my off side, missing it, and then figuring out what i was not doing on my offside that i was doing on my on side. Being really analytical about it. It worked. It was a step by step anaylytical process. First correct one ting on teh offside. compare it with my onside. then correct another thing.

I'm really glad it worked, because having an off side saved me and a friend from a bad situation last winter along a cliff. the friend went over in breakers along a cliff face. i went into get him, and i went over. couldn't roll up on my on side cause i was against the cliff. thank you jesus i had an offside and got up and towed him off the rocks. i never understood derek hutchinson's adamance that a sea kayaker only needs to be able to roll on one side. must not have played in rocks.

[Suz]

well, what got me to learn my off side roll was hanging upside down in a warm pond, doing my onside role, then trying a roll on my off side, missing it, and then figuring out what i was not doing on my offside that i was doing on my on side. Being really analytical about it. It worked. It was a step by step anaylytical process. First correct one ting on teh offside. compare it with my onside. then correct another thing.

I'm really glad it worked, because having an off side saved me and a friend from a bad situation last winter along a cliff. the friend went over in breakers along a cliff face. i went into get him, and i went over. couldn't roll up on my on side cause i was against the cliff. thank you jesus i had an offside and got up and towed him off the rocks. i never understood derek hutchinson's adamance that a sea kayaker only needs to be able to roll on one side. must not have played in rocks.

Derek has also said that one doesn't need to wear immersion gear because he didn't.... He also believes his Tooksook paddle has magic in it or something - we all know that isn't true too.

Suz

[Michael_Crouse]

"He also believes his Tooksook paddle has magic in it or something - we all know that isn't true too."

WHAT!!! I was promised magic when I purchased my Toksook paddle! It was even advertised as "Magic Toksook" Next you'll be telling me it's the paddler not the boat.

I like the Toksook because it's forgiving and very durable. I don't use it all the time, I guess it depends on my mood. Using it is like practicing your swing with weights on your baseball bat ;-)

[wilsoj2]

"playing around with a sculling brace on the off-side" -Ed Lawson

This is the only thing that works for me when working on my second side roll. Once I've done a sculling brace a few times, I capsize and scull up, and after a few times I can capsize and simply roll up on my second side.

It does not in any way screw-up my first side roll. However, I am someone who has to regularly go through the exercise noted in order to have my second side roll work when needed.

[Deb Millar]

Rolling on "your off side" has a lot to do with your head. All the advice above is excellent, and you might want to think of the roll as being "on the other side". Other just sounds better than off.

I learned to roll on the other side by having someone guide my paddle blade as I'd been originally totally disoriented while under water. Once I got my sense of "where I was" sorted out, I taught myself how to come up. I also found that doing the roll slowly and concentrating on what my body was doing -- and not my head -- helped tremendously. Rolling has some psychological components to begin with, and once you get past what's in your noggin and relax, things start falling into place.

Being able to roll on both sides definitely gives one a lot of confidence. Remember, too, that if it doesn't work on the "other side" twice, take a deep breath when you're half way up, and switch to your stronger side. More than likely, you'll come up.

Deb M

[Brian Nystrom]

Rolling on "your off side" has a lot to do with your head. All the advice above is excellent, and you might want to think of the roll as being "on the other side". Other just sounds better than off.

I agree with Deb that there is a huge mental component at work here. I strongly suspect that most people would learn to roll on both sides faster if no one mentioned the terms "on-side" and "off-side" to them and they were simply instructed to work on both sides.

I've also found that one of the biggest obstacles to learning to roll on both sides is using a feathered paddle. Feathering creates left-right side asymmetry and blade orientation problems that don't exist with an unfeathered paddle. Learning both sides with an unfeathered paddle is a good first step and is often easier, since the left and right side techniques are exact mirror images of each other. Once you have a solid roll on both sides, you can feather the paddle and work on the differences. Breaking the learning process into manageable chunks like this can really help.

[raddog]

I do a lot of w/w paddling and find that my offside needs me to do more actual thinking thru the process. Off side is an unusual situation and my on-side set up is almost automatic. I find that things usually aren't moving quite as fast as it feels when I am downside up, and I have plenty of time (within reason) to reset up. It takes only a very few seconds although it feels a lot longer. Like everything thing else, practice makes perfect.