first CAM trip....

[rick stoehrer]

even within CAM, you can still have a leader, is that correct? someone on water can still coordinate the group?

i understand we all share the burdens and responsibilities equally on the water but the truth of the matter is that we aren't all equal on the water. there are some with more and some with less experience and if the folks that should know what they're doing don't model that behavior because they're sensitive to the whole "we're all equal here" thing, then how are the folks with less experience supposed to learn? furthering education and mentoring (and even the dreaded "passing it forward") for newer paddlers is still supposed to be what this is about.

today on the water, i for the most part kept quiet and just sorta went where i thought i ought to cause i didn't post or coordinate the trip but the thing is, once we hit the water...there was no coordination and THAT can't be the model.

so how is this supposed to work? are we all still just getting used to it?

[Bill Gwynn]

Hey Rick,

You are correct, that you can still have a leader with CAM. It really is just common sense. If someone knows the area well, they should be "leading" the group etc.

This following two paragraphs are taken from the "Trip Participation" page:

http://www.nspn.org/trip_participation.htm

Trip Leadership. While on a Common Adventure trip, leadership is a fluid process. If someone knows the area, he assumes a leadership role, helping the group find their way. If there's an accident on the trip and someone has good first aid skills, they assume leadership. If a kayaker capsizes, another person may take over. Major decisions are made democratically as a group, with weight given to those with specialized knowledge. Often it is the trip initiator that guides the democratic process. In this process, everyone is able to express their opinions and shed light on the decision. By involving everyone, the group is able to tap all of its resources, making it far stronger than if one person tries to make all of the decisions.

Learning on the Trip. Common Adventure trips create an ideal environment for experiential learning. There are, of course, no designated teachers, but those on the trip with more experience can share their knowledge and skills with others with less experience.

[rick stoehrer]

Hey Rick,

You are correct, that you can still have a leader with CAM. It really is just common sense. If someone knows the area well, they should be "leading" the group etc.

This following two paragraphs are taken from the "Trip Participation" page:

http://www.nspn.org/trip_participation.htm

Trip Leadership. While on a Common Adventure trip, leadership is a fluid process. If someone knows the area, he assumes a leadership role, helping the group find their way. If there's an accident on the trip and someone has good first aid skills, they assume leadership. If a kayaker capsizes, another person may take over. Major decisions are made democratically as a group, with weight given to those with specialized knowledge. Often it is the trip initiator that guides the democratic process. In this process, everyone is able to express their opinions and shed light on the decision. By involving everyone, the group is able to tap all of its resources, making it far stronger than if one person tries to make all of the decisions.

Learning on the Trip. Common Adventure trips create an ideal environment for experiential learning. There are, of course, no designated teachers, but those on the trip with more experience can share their knowledge and skills with others with less experience.

if today is any indication there's plenty that needs to be sorted out going from theory to practice.

[mesbennett]

if today is any indication there's plenty that needs to be sorted out going from theory to practice.

hummmm...wondering where this was posted. I do not see it in "trips". I am hoping that I am missing something as I have seen very few s&g's posted this year. Perhaps they are being posted somewhere else????? and I am missing out on a lot of fun.

so where was this trip posted that you are referring to Rick????

maryb

[cathyfoley]

even within CAM, you can still have a leader, is that correct? someone on water can still coordinate the group?

i understand we all share the burdens and responsibilities equally on the water but the truth of the matter is that we aren't all equal on the water. there are some with more and some with less experience and if the folks that should know what they're doing don't model that behavior because they're sensitive to the whole "we're all equal here" thing, then how are the folks with less experience supposed to learn? furthering education and mentoring (and even the dreaded "passing it forward") for newer paddlers is still supposed to be what this is about.

today on the water, i for the most part kept quiet and just sorta went where i thought i ought to cause i didn't post or coordinate the trip but the thing is, once we hit the water...there was no coordination and THAT can't be the model.

so how is this supposed to work? are we all still just getting used to it?

Rick:

Under CAM, natural leaders arise. Why sit back and be quiet when you were likely the most qualified paddler there. Leadership doesn't have to be dictatorship. the group can make choices, but the more experienced people should be speaking up and offering suggestions and sharing knowledge.....if the group makes the wrong choice....speak up a bit louder!

[brwells]

hummmm...wondering where this was posted. I do not see it in "trips". I am hoping that I am missing something as I have seen very few s&g's posted this year. Perhaps they are being posted somewhere else????? and I am missing out on a lot of fun.

so where was this trip posted that you are referring to Rick????

maryb

Mary, this was posted in the Trips forum. Here is the topic:

http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=4872

There is still a lot of year left, Mary!

[EEL]

Would someone be so kind as to describe the sea state, the nature of the paddling activity, and the nature of the issues/problems that gave rise to this discussion? Obviously something was not quite to everyone's liking given trip report and this discussion. Curious for edification/planning purposes.

Thanks.

Ed Lawson

[rick stoehrer]

Would someone be so kind as to describe the sea state, the nature of the paddling activity, and the nature of the issues/problems that gave rise to this discussion? Obviously something was not quite to everyone's liking given trip report and this discussion. Curious for edification/planning purposes.

Thanks.

Ed Lawson

winds were 10-15 with 2-4 footers....mild day.

the problem was as i saw it that CAM is far too loosey goosey. a group can not make decisions. people can make decisions.

democracy is fine but i'm more of a republic guy myself....have the sense to nominate someone capable and then do what that person says....and the time to determine that is before you go anywhere.

group management is/was a big issue...from the put in(watch out for those fishing lines!) to the paddle back (are those little specks up there the rest of the group?) group management was not good.

no biggie...just CAM growing pains i suspect.

[Bill Gwynn]

Some of the things I have read here and on the trip report thread are causing me some confusion. First off, the trip participation page http://www.nspn.org/trip_participation.htm has answers to a lot of the questions. The beach briefing is one of the key steps to a CAM trip.

The way that I, and I am sure many of you have always run trips whether they be S&G, CAM, old NSPN trips or whatever, is to have a beach briefing, talk about safety, conditions, weather, group management, who's the lead, who's the sweep etc. It's common sense that all of these things that we know to do, should be done. Just because we are using a new format called CAM doesn't mean we have all become mindless fools.

I was not on this trip, so I can't definitively say what went wrong. But, I will however (based on what those there have written) try to help if I may. It sounds like there wasn't a beach briefing, and if there was one, it was too brief It is the responsibility of the trip initiator to get the beach briefing started. If participants feel that the format of the trip and the briefing is too loose and lacking detail, it is their responsibility to speak up and ask questions. Often it is the trip initiator that guides the democratic process both at the briefing and on the water.

It sounds like the group got pretty spread out. Maybe that was because some were looking to play in the rocks/surf, and others were out for a more leisurely day. In that situation, the group should have discussed the possibility of breaking into two groups and then meeting up later on at lunch. One of the best parts about CAM, is the flexibility to change the trip as situations develop.

It seems to me, that somehow people have misunderstood the meaning of CAM and think it means "every man for himself". That is completely incorrect. CAM really means "every man watches out for each other". It is a group effort where each individuals particular skills are used to benefit the group.

So, let's not get caught up in blaming CAM for a trip that didn't meet someone's expectations. The blame really comes back to each individual on that trip for not speaking up and doing what common sense and experience should have dictated. When I am out on a trip, I feel responsible for every single person on that trip whether they are my best friends, or someone I have just met. If any paddler is having some difficulty due to conditions, skill level, illness, whatever, I take the the time to talk to that paddler, find out what we as a group need to do to handle the situation. To me, this is common sense, human nature.

The following is from the Trip Participation Page http://www.nspn.org/trip_participation.htm

"Trip Safety. Because everyone's opinion is important and because everyone is working for the common good of the group, trips are safer. Among their responsibilities, members of Common Adventure groups keep an eye out for one another. Because of the open, democratic environment, they are less apt to hold back when they see potential problems. This participatory form of safety is highly effective, certainly more effective than if only person is in charge of keeping track of the group."

I think that this is a good discussion, and I am glad we are getting it posted here where most of the site traffic/activity is. I hope that my opinions have helped.

Bill

[Bill Gwynn]

One more thought...

CAM does not mean leaderless. Every trip should have a leader. The difference is that the leader can change as situations change. A day on the water is a fluid and ever changing thing. CAM is a great way to accommodate these changes.

[Gillian]

hey my three cents:

1) The last 10+ trips out there have been CAM and have been an experiment on the new model (yesterday was not the first!!!!)

2) Let's keep in mind for paddlers new to NSPN that yesterday's trip was great and while maybe mild conditions for some it was excellent practice for those who don't get in 3-4 footers that often

3) We had BCU and ACA trained paddlers and a BCU 5* paddler with us! The group got split into 2 sections - Kevin and myself with 6 other paddlers at the front (drift to the rocks was a concern so we had to keep the paddles in the water) and Rick and Doug with 2 other paddlers in the back. At no time did anyone not know where the other paddlers were although there was a good half mile between the groups

4) We all agree that Beach Briefings and perhaps the conversation on the beach for group management should return and are absolutely an important part of any trip

5) I want to be careful about talking about this good trip and portraying it as some concept of a bunch of paddlers that may have been sort of mindless and everyone out for themselves

6) No one in this club from those who decided to go to CAM on the board to those putting it into action ever thought that this was turning into a club where people didn't look out for each other. This is in fact a group of people who would put themselves at risk to help a fellow paddler or a complete stranger in distress for that matter.

I guess my overall point is that maybe it was just me, but apart from examining putting more structure and group management into a trip, and examining the practical application of CAM, we had a great day yesterday, had a wide variety of skill sets that luckily were looked after highly trained and adept paddlers, and everyone in fact had a good learning experience and a good time . . .

[Bill Gwynn]

I hope that I didn't give the impression that anyone on the trip acted in an inappropriate way and it was somehow unsafe. Heck, I wasn't even there. If I did, I truly apologize. My intent was to help educate and make sure people understand what CAM is all about.

[spuglisi]

hey my three cents:

1) The last 10+ trips out there have been CAM and have been an experiment on the new model (yesterday was not the first!!!!)

2) Let's keep in mind for paddlers new to NSPN that yesterday's trip was great and while maybe mild conditions for some it was excellent practice for those who don't get in 3-4 footers that often

3) We had BCU and ACA trained paddlers and a BCU 5* paddler with us! The group got split into 2 sections - Kevin and myself with 6 other paddlers at the front (drift to the rocks was a concern so we had to keep the paddles in the water) and Rick and Doug with 2 other paddlers in the back. At no time did anyone not know where the other paddlers were although there was a good half mile between the groups

4) We all agree that Beach Briefings and perhaps the conversation on the beach for group management should return and are absolutely an important part of any trip

5) I want to be careful about talking about this good trip and portraying it as some concept of a bunch of paddlers that may have been sort of mindless and everyone out for themselves

6) No one in this club from those who decided to go to CAM on the board to those putting it into action ever thought that this was turning into a club where people didn't look out for each other. This is in fact a group of people who would put themselves at risk to help a fellow paddler or a complete stranger in distress for that matter.

I guess my overall point is that maybe it was just me, but apart from examining putting more structure and group management into a trip, and examining the practical application of CAM, we had a great day yesterday, had a wide variety of skill sets that luckily were looked after highly trained and adept paddlers, and everyone in fact had a good learning experience and a good time . . .

I'd just like to second Gillians point. I'm a newer member of NSPN and though I've been paddling for several years I was one of the paddlers yesterday with "less" ocean experience. I certainly see the validity of the ongoing discussion but I for one had a great time. For me it was fun and challenging. I saw a lot of smiles and didn't notice anyone who seemed distressed. The group was loose but it certainly appeared to me that everyone was looking out for everyone else. Room for improvement? Sure. Like Gillian I've been reading the posts and wondering what people who weren't there might be thinking. I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone else but I don't think anyone left the water yesterday feeling like they could have been left behind or were put at undo risk.

So...bottom line for me, at least, is that it was a GREAT TRIP. As far as improvement? I think Rick's point about the difference between a democracy and a republic distills it nicely.

And once again...Thanks Kevin, for posting the trip I really enjoyed myself.

[alcoons]

We did have a good trip yesterday. However, there were situations that need to be addressed or at least discussed.

On the way down, there was someone in the very rear who was not comfortable. Since Rick was helping my wife on technique, I tried to split the difference to cover the other person. She in fact asked me for help saying she was not comfortable in those condition and in keeping her boat on track. Given the conditions, it certainly would have been good to have more help in the back.

On the return trip, she paddled well with the pack. Rick and Doug were good enough to stay with my wife and me. My wife Alda was exceptionally stable (at least in terms of the ocean) and unlikely to capsize, but was slower than the rest of the group. We felt very safe, but much appreciated the company.

Below is a copy of what I posted in the trip report before this tread got going:

1) It is easy to misinterpret CAM as suggesting there is no leadership. When I ask Kevin yesterday, he said the CAM allows various models from an active leadership to very little.

2) I do not believe level 2 paddlers have enough knowledge to make good decisions about the appropriateness of trips. Where would they gain this knowledge, particularly as they work their way towards level 3 trips? They have not experienced significant waves, wind, weather or distance. This comes from experience.

3) While the CAM model places no legal responsibility on the individual for others, I think we need to be very careful with how clear we are about the level of collective support/supervision each trip is going to provide. This is particularly true for trips with lower-level paddlers, unknown paddlers, and conditions that end up near the more difficult end of the range described in the posting.

4) For example, one trip might make it clear in the trip announcement that the group will stay together with a sweep. It might also encourage padders who are unsure of the appropriateness of the trip to discuss it on or offline. It might even mention a decision point if the conditions are near the high-end of the posted level.

5) Yes, we have to be careful not to slip over the line into suggesting that there is a formal leader of the trip, but we have managed to do that well in posting S&Gs in the past. Some are very clear about expectations, support, and the appropriateness of trip for different paddlers. While these trips had collective decision making, they also had beach briefings. These groups often appreciate informal leadership. Paddlers reading those posting had a different feeling from the minimal posting that simply states when, where, and level. Each type of trip has its place in the CAM model. In fact, there is probably a continuum of level of support that is possible under CAM.

6) I know that everyone in the club will help a paddler in any kind of discomfort or distress when called upon. What we need to make sure is that paddlers are supported in making the right decisions before and during a trip. Not all paddlers can do this on their own without the advice of those with more experience.

Al

[gyork]

[quote name='Gillian' date='Jun 29 2008, 11:37 AM' post= At no time did anyone not know where the other paddlers were although there was a good half mile between the groups

How many were wearing radios in the group? Here's a situation where VHF radios might help to round up the paddlers, if needed, assuming everyone remembers to do a radio check immediately after each launch. This could be covered at the beach briefing.

Gary

[Gcosloy]

Since I wasn't on this trip either, I guess I can opine as well. The irony is that new paddlers need more time on the water in various conditions to be able to access their skill and emotional response as well as improve both. I think that this can happen comfortably under the CAM model if these folks could be identified at the launch and then look for more experienced paddlers to agree to stay with them. I started out in conditions that were initially over my head and made me uncomfortable. I was always with one or more experienced paddlers and that made all the difference. Just MHO!

[rick stoehrer]

We did have a good trip yesterday. However, there were situations that need to be addressed or at least discussed.

On the way down, there was someone in the very rear who was not comfortable. Since Rick was helping my wife on technique, I tried to split the difference to cover the other person. She in fact asked me for help saying she was not comfortable in those condition and in keeping her boat on track. Given the conditions, it certainly would have been good to have more help in the back.

On the return trip, she paddled well with the pack. Rick and Doug were good enough to stay with my wife and me. My wife Alda was exceptionally stable (at least in terms of the ocean) and unlikely to capsize, but was slower than the rest of the group. We felt very safe, but much appreciated the company.

Below is a copy of what I posted in the trip report before this tread got going:

1) It is easy to misinterpret CAM as suggesting there is no leadership. When I ask Kevin yesterday, he said the CAM allows various models from an active leadership to very little.

2) I do not believe level 2 paddlers have enough knowledge to make good decisions about the appropriateness of trips. Where would they gain this knowledge, particularly as they work their way towards level 3 trips? They have not experienced significant waves, wind, weather or distance. This comes from experience.

3) While the CAM model places no legal responsibility on the individual for others, I think we need to be very careful with how clear we are about the level of collective support/supervision each trip is going to provide. This is particularly true for trips with lower-level paddlers, unknown paddlers, and conditions that end up near the more difficult end of the range described in the posting.

4) For example, one trip might make it clear in the trip announcement that the group will stay together with a sweep. It might also encourage padders who are unsure of the appropriateness of the trip to discuss it on or offline. It might even mention a decision point if the conditions are near the high-end of the posted level.

5) Yes, we have to be careful not to slip over the line into suggesting that there is a formal leader of the trip, but we have managed to do that well in posting S&Gs in the past. Some are very clear about expectations, support, and the appropriateness of trip for different paddlers. While these trips had collective decision making, they also had beach briefings. These groups often appreciate informal leadership. Paddlers reading those posting had a different feeling from the minimal posting that simply states when, where, and level. Each type of trip has its place in the CAM model. In fact, there is probably a continuum of level of support that is possible under CAM.

6) I know that everyone in the club will help a paddler in any kind of discomfort or distress when called upon. What we need to make sure is that paddlers are supported in making the right decisions before and during a trip. Not all paddlers can do this on their own without the advice of those with more experience.

Al

al, it was nice to meet you and alda yesterday.

when you say "While these trips had collective decision making..." how were those decisions reached, communicated, carried out?

i've had 2 CAMS now...yesterday and the one i went on today. today we had a beach briefing, we reviewed where we were going, what we were going to do and then some basic group control things....it's foggy, stay together. heads on swivels, always know where the other paddlers are, if we do become separated use your whistle. if you don't get a response and you can't sit still, here's your safety bearing to shore....this is the tide/current/weather today and this is what that means for us if....when we find some surf, this is how we set that up, here's what we should do...things like that.

while each trip will present it's own set of basic safety, group control outlines, the idea is that you are sure to take some cursory precautions in trying to maintain the group and safety and then what's going to happen if you lose that cohesion.

just because it's CAM doesn't mean that the more experienced paddler don't still DO all of these leadership-y things within their respective abilities. CAM is the way the club chose to hedge individual liability but that's all just legalese mumbo jumbo. what it come down to on the water is that we just need to look out for ourselves and those around us to the best of our abilities.

we may not be responsible FOR one another under CAM but i feel we have a responsibility TO one another and if we're paddling 300 yards apart we can't honor that responsibility.

[alcoons]

when you say "While these trips had collective decision making..." how were those decisions reached, communicated, carried out?

i've had 2 CAMS now...yesterday and the one i went on today. today we had a beach briefing, we reviewed where we were going, what we were going to do and then some basic group control things....it's foggy, stay together. heads on swivels, always know where the other paddlers are, if we do become separated use your whistle. if you don't get a response and you can't sit still, here's your safety bearing to shore....this is the tide/current/weather today and this is what that means for us if....when we find some surf, this is how we set that up, here's what we should do...things like that.

while each trip will present it's own set of basic safety, group control outlines, the idea is that you are sure to take some cursory precautions in trying to maintain the group and safety and then what's going to happen if you lose that cohesion.

just because it's CAM doesn't mean that the more experienced paddler don't still DO all of these leadership-y things within their respective abilities. CAM is the way the club chose to hedge individual liability but that's all just legalese mumbo jumbo. what it come down to on the water is that we just need to look out for ourselves and those around us to the best of our abilities.

we may not be responsible FOR one another under CAM but i feel we have a responsibility TO one another and if we're paddling 300 yards apart we can't honor that responsibility.

Rick. I think you have described what most of want in our trips. The second trip you went on sounds more like the S&Gs I am use to. Those who called the trip and/or the more experienced paddlers set a tone on the beach and it permiates the trip.

You asked how collective decisions are made once on the water. It often has happened something like this. We get to the end of Marblehead Harbor headed for Misery or Hull Gut headed for Boston light. The wind is rising and we have members of the group we do not know. The conditions are looking as if they MAY be too much for some paddlers depending on their unknown experience. In some cases we already have exhausted paddlers after a few mile on a class 2+ trip. Many of the experienced paddlers and certainly those who have called the trip have been watching those we don't know to get some sense of their abilities.

So we stop outside the harbor or at the gut and pull the group together. One of us tries to describe the distance, options, times and asks what people think. No answer. We ask again, able paddlers say go for it. Then we ask if anyone is uncomfortable/unsure. That is the point that we get more complete answers. Lots of possibilities remain depending on the size of the group. We have decided on a less demanding paddle. We have split large groups with their are sufficient experienced paddlers into two groups. I guess I am saying, there is a collective decision but someone has laid out their best guesses at the route and encouraged paddlers to say how they feel.

Al

[Shaila_27]

Since I wasn't on this trip either, I guess I can opine as well. The irony is that new paddlers need more time on the water in various conditions to be able to access their skill and emotional response as well as improve both. I think that this can happen comfortably under the CAM model if these folks could be identified at the launch and then look for more experienced paddlers to agree to stay with them. I started out in conditions that were initially over my head and made me uncomfortable. I was always with one or more experienced paddlers and that made all the difference. Just MHO!

I really enjoyed the trip yesterday. For some the conditions were quite mild, for others the swell was the biggest they had paddled in. This is my second year paddling so with that in mind, here are my observations:

1- The paddle was set up for 10am sharp butts-in-boats time, a realitively quick, leisurely paddle and with a pretty loose agenda as far as agenda (rock gardening, surfing, etc.)

2- I was one of the couple of guilty people who showed up with barely enough time to spare to get my gear together and my boat in the water. (I am 2 for 2 as far as getting lost on the way to that specific put-in)

3- I know at least a few of us had VHF radios and a beach breifing would have been good to coordinate things such as a common communication channel, the possibility of splitting up in regards to speed, play in rocks, etc. and finally, which people in the group had:

-not paddled in the area

-it was their first or second ocean paddle this year

-wanted to expand their experience in conditions of increased swell, etc. but needed to buddy up with some more experienced paddlers for pointers, moral support, and even a hand if a rescue was needed

4- The same goes here for a briefing and check-in before leaving the beach at the half way point to go over the same things listed in #3.

5- I feel as if the group did keep an eye out for each other with stops to check in with the group, verbal checks and head counts along the way - I made sure to ask how people were feeling and doing as well as keep a head count on the front group and the back group.

With these in mind, I for one feel guilty about showing up with minutes to spare at the put-in when I knew that the trip was initiated with a tight schedule. I am sure that this fact did not effect the beach briefing but I understand that tardiness can be annoying and make it more difficult for the whole group when it comes to communication.

The other perspective that I feel I have is one of a newish paddler and what that can entail. I agree with Al on the fact that although everyone needs to make their own judgements on issues of limitaions, a newer paddler has no ability to do this because they don't know what their limitations are and they don't know what the conditions may really be like or how they will handle them. Last year I was very shy and concerned about going on any trips because I had no idea how far I could go without getting tired and how I would react to swell, etc. Because of this my general reaction was to not go on trips so I wouldn't hold back other paddlers, be in over my head, and create a situation where I would have to rely on others because I made a bad decision. I feel a great responsibility when it comes to my decisions and how they may effect other paddler's safety and enjoyment of a trip.

The great link between those feelings (which still remain at times) and a more informed, outgoing person really came down to the L2-L3 transition paddles last year. I could go on these paddles without feeling like I may become a burdon to a group of experienced people and I could gain confidence and skill in those conditions and trips where I had people watching my back for specific purpose of my learning without my having to ask someone to be my hand-holder during a SNG trip because I was in over my head or even just a little nervous.

I really feel like, although it is tough to speak up sometimes, people should be open about being a little nervous, etc. because the members and associates of NSPN are often more than happy to pass it on so a newer paddler can gain the experience and the group can maintain communication to keep everyone safe. I still am not always sure if some of the posted trips are tailored for a more experienced groups or for everyone but it seems as if we are a paddling network that will enjoy our time out on the water regardless if it involves a little instruciton or a change of plans.

I had a blast on the water yesterday. I have never been in seas with consistant 2-5ft swell but I can now walk away with the new knowledge that I was perfectly fine and I am ready to test out similar or greater conditions - and that is what it is all about!