Looking for advice on 1st kayak purchase

[subaruguru]

Good point Suz. I am planning to sell mine for $10,000 to the first buyer who does not want to wait for the local inventory to ramp up. More seriously, are they available yet in quantity?

Al

Hi Al,

Just got my clear hull (black!) ultralight Cetus, which at only 50lbs should sell for $9999 just before yours!

My does this thing turn? But as Peter confirmed, quite skeg-dependent even at 10 knots. So it's my playboat as I don't fit well in 16 footers. My Force5 is much trackier for windy longer outings, so it'll be interesting to see if I keep both.

Wait for ANY Cetus this was still 14 months recently.

See you soon.

Ern

[Suz]

as the only 5* (well - there are others but those slackers just haven't gone to wales to take the test yet!) still even marginally involved with the club, i'd have to agree. the award qualifies you to lead/guide paddlers of adequate ability in full brit conditions. the award requires that the group has adequate ability (4*) and assumes you can give basic instruction but it is not qualification as such. 5*'s are guides, not instructors.

as you didn't catch the reference as it pertains to a skills qualification within the BCU maybe a little background would be beneficial?

there are 2 big organizational bodies - the british canoe union or bcu - which includes the welsh, scottish canoe unions a well as the bcu in north america - bcuna and the american canoe association or aca.

the bcu is broken down into different kinds of paddling, sea, ww, canoe, flatwater and is the older of the 2 dating back about 200 years. within those disciplines, it is further broken down to skills, coaching and then assessor qualifications.

the personal skill awards are referred to as "stars" awards and go from 1 (lowest) to 5 (highest) and the coaching awards are referred to as "levels" so you can have a coach level 1 (coach 1) through coach level 5 (coach 5). you have to hold the personal skills award that is at least 1 higher than the coaching award you seek...so if you are a 4* paddler, then you can eventually qualify through instruction and assessment as a coach 3. make sense? BUT just because you hold a skills award does not mean you hold a coaching award...it's a separate regimen of training/assessment.

now, on top of that you have the assessors that qualify the different coaching levels, referred to as "a-" for short...so if someone were a coach5, a5...that would be about the highest coaching and assessing cert available in the bcu...and there's only 1 in the US. i think there are only 2 or 3 coach5's in the us...so at some point, you can see it gets pretty rarified.

the other big organization is the american canoe association and they're set up similarly with skills awards and coaching levels and instructor trainers.

both have websites (americancanoe.org and on this side of the salty pond bcuna.com) that should answer specific questions.

it can appear a little daunting at first blush with stars and levels and blah, blah, blah, but many have found that if they prescribe to either the bcu or aca, that they advance their paddling and enjoyment of the sport faster than if left to their own devices and instruction on a club level. different people will respond and be able to work within different frameworks and to each his own...it should all be about just enjoying the water!

hope that helps

Blaine - I am a 4* and didn't get fishman's cryptic reference, no wonder you were scratching your head! I think I didn't get it partly because he keeps masking his identity - first he is _rick, then he is some Coast Guard and now he is fishman. I geuss he seems to think that if you follow a 5* it will make you one. Alas, not always the case. Thanks Jason for the connection as it clarified the cryptic reference.

As for ricks - how can you say you are not involved in the club? Only thing you don't do is pay your membership! You use the message board, you post, you run skills sessions. You are as much a member as I am although I paid my membership! So who are you kidding?

Suz

[subaruguru]

Blaine.

Welcome. As Joe related, it can be difficult to avoid buying the at-least-slightly-wrong boat initially.

Yet it's pretty hard to lose if you buy used. I started with a one-year old composite LookshaIV HV, which, unloaded, was surprisingly quick, but very wind-cocky and a bit beamy.

Reselling for only 10-20% less after a year or more is relatively easy, so I wouldn't worry too much about making a first purchase. Think of it as cheap rent....

Although I don't fit in a Chatham 16, and PeterB had to surgically open up its cockpit, you might find this slow but really agile hull to your liking as a rough water playboat.

For a trackier choice the new Impex Forces (I have an F5) are getting popular in the club. The F4 is remarkably insensitive in high winds, yet lean-turns beautifully. The F3 is smaller, but since I can't get in one I've not tried it.

I'd recommend the P&H Cetus as an all-purpose hull, but the wait still exceeds a year!

I obsessed about cockpit fit the first couple of years, as I have a bulging disc, so learned that replacing/modding seats goes with the turf (er, water).

Pete's rec to start with a great paddle is right on. I too started with a low angle Kalliste, sold for a remarkably light Ikelos, and have added the smaller clone (Cypress) for warmup this time of the year, and as a spare. I'd be careful of very big blades if they're heavier (Corryvecken et al), but the Ikelos has caused me no tendonitis nor shoulder issues. It's a favorite of some of the women staffers at CRCK too.

Your size and weight range means that a huge host of options lies open to you.

For efficiency, glide, and resale, unless you're getting a rock-attracting playboat (plastic Avocet/Chatham16/Capella16x/Pintail/et al), I'd suggest getting a used composite boat instead of a new plastic one, as the cost of trading will be similar in gross dollars but you'll probably enjoy the composite a lot more.

Water and air were 52F on the Mystic Lakes yesterday, but there's no doubt that a full drysuit is in order. Just so much comfier than cold 'n clammy wetsuits this time of the year. Check with Suz on all the options.

Hope this helps, and looking forward to seeing you on the water.

Ern

[rick stoehrer]

no, no, no...i post on the message board...i don't have anything to do with anything the club DOES...if there is a question i have an opinion or experience with, i post it to the general message board. i post anything remotely commercial to the commercial boards and the open sessions i do on wednesdays are specifically NOT club paddles. all of which is within the confines of how the board/club is set up i think?

i like paddling. i like some people...i'm still not too sure about the club dynamic sometime....it's been changing, maybe it will continue to change. as soon as where it's somewhere i like, i'll fork over my $15 and i'll take part fully.

[EEL]

Well, just to keep it interesting. While there is a tendency to say boats like the Avocet, Pintail, Romany, and others of similar size are day/playboats; they are, especially for someone who weighs around 150#, perfect for weekend touring/camping trips and maybe more. If you can resupply along the way, which you can most of the time, then you could go for weeks in one. Most of us very seldom go on longer unsupported trips so I'll throw out the opinion that even for camping they are jut right. For some, they are much easier to haul around and much more fun to paddle. Those of us at 180# and above are betwixt and between, but even some larger paddlers use such boats for multi-day trips. Boats in the general volume category of the Romany, Avocet, Pintail, AA have been used for and thought great for touring.

Before it became known as a play boat, the AA was considered a premier coastal touring boat. Of course that was before the more recent 16' boats were around. Note there is a difference between coastal touring and expeditions with major crossing and long unsupported legs. Alot depends on how much junk you take when camping when it comes to the volume needed for touring too. If you like to have the kitchen sink, then an expedition boat may be required. If you are a backpacker, then a low volume boat still has far more room than any backpack.

As I recall, some infamous character has gone on overnight camping trips using only the day hatch for storage.

I have an 18' boat that I love and use, but most of the time it is the small boat that gets the nod.

Ed Lawson

[EEL]

as soon as where it's somewhere i like, i'll fork over my $15 and i'll take part fully.

OTOH

"I sent the club a wire stating, PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT ME AS A MEMBER."

Groucho Marx

Ed Lawson

[shewhorn]

Well, just to keep it interesting. While there is a tendency to say boats like the Avocet, Pintail, Romany, and others of similar size are day/playboats; they are, especially for someone who weighs around 150#, perfect for weekend touring/camping trips and maybe more.

I know someone a good 60 to 70 pounds heavier than that who will be doing a 10 day unsupported camping trip this summer (and did a 6 day trip last year) in a Pintail. It is definitely doable (although the amount of freeboard or lack there of is downright amusing but it's still doable). A quick tidbit though... if you plan on using that boat for longer trips, order one with a custom bulkhead placement or have someone move the bulkhead in an existing boat if you buy new. My Pintail (a 2007) and his Pintail (which as been around the block) have the forward bulkheads in different spots. His are in a much better spot which is 3" aft relative to the placement of my forward bulkhead. If I were to camp with my Pintail I'd definitely want to move the forward bulkhead backwards by 6". I have 10" of foam in there as it is already (I'm 5'9") and I'm probably adding one more inch. Move that sucker back by 6" and you have A LOT more room for carrying gear.

Editing to add... actually... don't custom order 'cause I doubt you'll be doing long camping trips straight from the starting line and you may very well decide that you're not going to keep whatever you get... so just get something you like as a daily paddler and then work out what you can/can't do with it camping wise later on. If it doesn't fit the bill then you start shopping for a new boat or a second boat.

Cheers, Joe

[Pintail]

Two quick points:

(i) Blaine, the Valley Nordkapp was designed <expressly> as an expedition boat! Yes, it has been around for many years in various incarnations and certain details have changed: its history is convoluted. The difference between standard Nordkapp and LV may not be as dramatic as that between the Explorer and its LV version.

(ii) Mr. Lawson (Ed), you and I know what we mean by an AA; but I doubt Blaine knows?

Tootle-OO, pip pip!

[shewhorn]

(ii) Mr. Lawson (Ed), you and I know what we mean by an AA; but I doubt Blaine knows?

Perhaps he was trying to avoid the inevitable jokes about paddling an Anas? OK... maybe not that funny.

[Bill Gwynn]

AA= Valley Anas Acuta. My personal favorite boat. Probably not the right choice for a beginner, but of course, everyone if different. It has hard chines, an ocean cockpit and is narrow at 20 inches. It also has beautiful lines, and looks oh so sexy on the water. Here's a pic of mine.

Now, for my 2 cents (with a pillar of salt) If I could only have one boat, it would probably be an Avocet. It seems to be a great compromise for a do-it-all kayak.

[shewhorn]

AA= Valley Anas Acuta. My personal favorite boat. Probably not the right choice for a beginner. It has hard chines, an ocean cockpit and is narrow at 20.5 inches.

Now available with a keyhole cockpit as well. (if you listen carefully you can hear Bill calling me a heathen ).

Cheers, Joe

[Bill Gwynn]

I have yet to get the actual straight info on the keyhole version of the AA. Someone said that the keyhole version is also bigger to accommodate the larger paddler. Maybe a version between the AA and the Q-boat. Just speculation, as I have yet to see a keyhole AA. And...yes, it just seems wrong to put a keyhole in a classic design.

[alcoons]

Hi Al,

Just got my clear hull (black!) ultralight Cetus, which at only 50lbs should sell for $9999 just before yours!

My does this thing turn? But as Peter confirmed, quite skeg-dependent even at 10 knots. So it's my playboat as I don't fit well in 16 footers. My Force5 is much trackier for windy longer outings, so it'll be interesting to see if I keep both.

Wait for ANY Cetus this was still 14 months recently.

See you soon.

Ern

Hi Ern. Guess I will lower my price by $2. Glad you are going to be the focus of Cetus envy. Seriously, I will be interested in seeing how much you use the skeg after some more experience. I never found myself overly dependent on it, but then my large butt probably keeps more boat in the water. As I spent more time in the boat, I found the tracking dependent on how I loaded it on day trips probably since there was not much weight in it for the volume. But you are right, if it is going to spin and be this long, there has to be a compromise when it is loaded lightly.

Al

[PeterB]

Blaine,

In kayaking, I think that early instruction will be invaluable.

I have found kayaking to be the most counterintuitive sport I’ve ever undertaken :

When in rough seas, a narrow boat that feels tippy can be safer than a wide boat that feels stable? When you roll from upside down to rightside up, your head and face is the last thing, not the first thing that comes up from underwater? When you paddle you don’t use your arms? It would probably take me years and years, if ever , to discover these things on my own (I imagine it took the Inuit generations to learn by trial and error ,probably at the cost of many lives), but getting good instruction from the get-go can really streamline that learning curve, and you can avoid some bad habits that take a good while to unlearn.

I first paddled for few years alone or with my family, mostly in a tandem, and I did a lot of kayak camping: Georgian Bay, Umbagog, Lake George, but when he got older and and was no longer a captive of my whims , he lost interest, and I struck out on my own and sought instruction and to learn something more about kayaking. It has taken a good while to unlearn the bad habits I picked up following the intuitive course I had followed on my own. I think where I suffered the most was in the forward stroke, which I consider the most difficult of all kayak skills (again, the counterintuitive: paddling forward is more difficult than moving your boat sideways, or rolling, or rescuing someone?)

Mr. Stoehrer’s tome on BCU may have your head spinning, but to keep it simple, it’s a good system. You’ll notice that some of the best paddlers you will meet have some BCU experience: for my part, I like the BCU because it’s designed to build skills in a systematic, progressive way (“from the root to the fruit” ) and in so doing you will meet some of the finest people anywhere.

Peter

[Bob C]

Hi Blain,

We're about the same size so here are some boats I like:

Valley:

Pintail (though slightly big for me) - my rock and surf boat

Avocet - my new go-to boat

Anas Acuta

P&H

I like the Cetus but it's way too big for me -- I'm probably 30-40 lbs too light -- but it's a very nice kayak.

The other P&H boats tend to have too-large cockpits for my taste.

NDK

Romany LV - one sweet boat, have paddled my wife's. Standard Romany is the right size for us.

Explorer LV - another sweet boat, have paddled my wife's

WS

Tempest 165 is my former go-to- boat. Rides a bit high in the water and because of this I really got blown around in 25 kt winds, hence move to Avocet. Layup a bit light.

Paddle lots of boats until you find the one you like. Hit all the demo days this summer and see what outfitters have.

Take lessons from **competent** instructors.

Cheers,

Bob

[bbjorn]

Ok, I have to make a confession to all of you who have been so genereous in spending your valuable time offering this newbie advice on purchasing a first kayak.

After my posting Tues. night regarding the pair of plastic Avocets I saw for sale, and my vow to forget about them and heed all your good advice to try different boats before I buy, I hit the sack and woke up 5 fitful hrs. later baffled by the fact that somehow during the night my mind made itself up to buy one of those Avocets regardless. I thought I was sleeping, but apparently my mind spent the night rationalizing and justifying it's rejection of all the wise admonitions it had received only hours earlier. I apparently had little say in the matter, as it was a done deal when I awoke and I could not get my mind to change. I've pieced together the logic which went something like

- The Avocet has been high on my wish list, although in composite.

- Christopher pointed out that for playing in rock gardens, plastic might not be such a bad idea.

- Several people have raved about this boat and recommended it highly.

- The price is amazing (asking $1200 but willing to bargain) for a virtually new boat.

- With the money I save by buying this as my day boat, I can get another boat later for

expeditioning and point to point travel, AFTER I've had a chance to try those I'm interested in.

- I'd have a boat to use now even if it's not the perfect boat for me, and could relax and take my time demo-ing other boats at my leisure, this time following all your great suggestions.

- If I find the Avocet isn't for me, I should be able to resell it easily.

Then, I read a couple new posts from Joe and Subaruguru that very coincidentally made many of these same points that had just coalesced in my mind, and decided to give in and at least go check out the boat. Of course there's now an pretty red Avocet perched on my car roof in the driveway, and I keep running outside for another look at it!

But, irony of ironies, next week I leave for 3 weeks in the DESERT of California, Arizona and Utah and won't be able to get her in water until mid-May. So instead of enjoying my vacation in God's country, I'll be wishing I were back home in my boat!

Blaine

[bbjorn]

In case anyone is interested in the other Avocet for sale, it's in Mansfield MA near Foxboro. It's teal blue and virtually new. Seems to be in near perfect condition, and the price will be very good. You can find my contact info in my profile if you want more details.

BlaineB

[subaruguru]

Congrats, Blaine, and have a great trip.

That $1200 for a composite Avocet will always be there if/when you change your mind.

Cheers.

Ern

[Gcosloy]

Hi Blaine. Here’s my contribution to answering your questions. While you may have already found a good boat for you, some of us love to offer opinions on this subject:

In evaluating a sea kayak there are many factors that need to be considered. I will mention those that I think most important. First, sit in the cockpit and perceive how your knees feet and hips press against the hull and deck. Are you comfortable? Do you like where your legs are, close and straight out or wide splayed and high? Is there enough room for your feet resting upon the pegs when you’re feet are about 45 degrees from the perpendicular? Don’t be too concerned about the comfort provided by either the seat or the back band at this point; either can be swapped out for something more comfortable for your needs. Also if there is too much space between your hips and the hull, don’t mind, that space can be foamed out. Read what the manufactures write about weight classes for their boats. As an example if 230 lbs is mid range or ideal for boat X and the boat weighs 50lbs. and you weigh 150lbs, a day kit of 20 to 30 lbs puts you at 230 lbs. Not ideal however if you frequently need to add another 50 to 70 lbs. for a 5 day camping trip. After cockpit comfort and volume are considered all boats can be characterized by handling capability. The amount of rocker will determine how easy or hard it is to turn a boat off track or keep it on track. Play boats usually have more and expedition boats less rocker. Stability is divided into primary and secondary. Primary stability can be experienced by just sitting still and paddling straight ahead. Does the boat want to grip the water firmly or loosely? If you lean a little to one side what does the boat do? Somewhat resist or easily lean with you. Almost all active experienced paddlers will prefer the latter. Secondary stability is what happens when you continue the lean right up to the point of capsize. Here most expert opinions vary. Some like the slow predictable transition when resisting forces increase exponentially the further over you go and when reaching the point of no return gently plops you into the sea. Many soft chine boats behave this way. The other extreme is when the extended lean is felt as a quantum change into a new or second hull. This change over from primary to secondary can feel somewhat disconcerting especially to the novice paddler. Many hard chine boats have this characteristic. Finally the forces that capsize this boat can be felt as a linear force, not increasing in strength and without warning dumping you fast into the drink.

These three things are responsible for the feel of the boat, when others speak of a boat being sweet. What they mean is they like or approve of the hull design with just the right amount of rocker, the right amount of primary which gives the boat a lively feel when edging and the right transition to secondary which is either fast or slow, predictable or hairy. Some boats are legends in that they satisfy more paddlers in these regards like the NDK Explorer, while others are more of an acquired taste like the Anas Acuta.

There are many other factors in boat design, which affect performance such as the height of the deck, which determines how a boat is affected by wind, the actual shape of the hull, which affects the wetted surface under stroke, and the efficiency of the boat. Some boats are wider in back of the cockpit or swede form and some are wider in front of the cockpit or fish form and some are symmetrical. None of these other factors are as significant in determining how much you will like a particular boat or not. If you are experienced, try before you buy and within the conditions you will paddle. If you are a novice, you will probably not have enough confidence to try a lot of boats in rough conditions or even be able to evaluate properly. The problem is this: A novice should not purchase the boat he or she is perfectly comfortable in. A boat for a novice is the one they would like to grow into. Some boats are forgiving enough such that they won’t scare the novice and yet remain useful as he improves his skills. Other boats can only be evaluated after one has acquired a decent amount of skill. Remember, it’s not the boat, it’s you and the boat. Good luck!

[djlewis]

- The Avocet has been high on my wish list, although in composite.

- Christopher pointed out that for playing in rock gardens, plastic might not be such a bad idea.

- Several people have raved about this boat and recommended it highly.

- The price is amazing (asking $1200 but willing to bargain) for a virtually new boat.

- With the money I save by buying this as my day boat, I can get another boat later for

expeditioning and point to point travel, AFTER I've had a chance to try those I'm interested in.

- I'd have a boat to use now even if it's not the perfect boat for me, and could relax and take my time demo-ing other boats at my leisure, this time following all your great suggestions.

- If I find the Avocet isn't for me, I should be able to resell it easily.

Then, I read a couple new posts from Joe and Subaruguru that very coincidentally made many of these same points that had just coalesced in my mind, and decided to give in and at least go check out the boat. Of course there's now an pretty red Avocet perched on my car roof in the driveway, and I keep running outside for another look at it!

Excellent choice and reasoning!

I paddle a plastic Avocet a good deal of the time, and though I'm often the only poly boat in the pack, I actually feel quite good about it -- I can smile to myself that it's a great play and training boat, turns nicely, rolls almost like a SoF, surfs beautifully for a long boat, and is not bad for distance. And even though not as fancy-schmancy as the latest 18-foot, multi-colored Explo-tus-ella-naut, it's worth it for the envious looks you get when dragging it by the nose up a rocky beach while everybody else is crying for help to hoist their oh-so-delicate carriages.

You're about my size, though a ten-spot or so thinner, so it should fit you fine, though you may find a tad more hip room than you want when you get to rolling. I find the seat very comfy, even though it's basically a built-in, padded deal, and therefore also rather infra-chic.

I have only one suggestion for outfitting, and that's to either install thin foam knee braces, or at least put a strip of duct tape over the rough poly edge just about where the inside of your (at least my) knees hit. If your knees are exposed, as when you're wearing shorts or a shorty wet suit, and you try to roll or do an extreme brace, the inevitable (and proper) knee pressure might jam that rough plastic edge against your soft knee-flesh and open a cut. It first happened to me in the midst of an early winter pool session where I was doing a lot of rolls, and was also in shorts for the first time in the boat. I looked down and both legs were covered with blood -- minor injury, but I still have the scars.

Oh yes, you might also want to replace or take up some of the slack in the rather loose deck lines (unless they've fixed that).

So welcome to the Elite Order of Satisfied Poly Avoceters Smiling to Themselves

Oh yes, I also own a Kevlar Aquanaut. But I use the Avocet for almost all training.

--David.