Looking for advice on 1st kayak purchase

[bbjorn]

Hello

I'm looking for advice on purchasing my first kayak and hope some of you who have paddled

different boats will offer your opinions.

I'm an eager newbie who's ocean kayaked just a few times, but enough to know I love it!

A while back I did a fair bit of whitewater canoeing up to class 3+ so I know how to use a Apaddle and make a boat go where I want it to go. I'm counting on some of that experience transferring and getting me to intermediate quickly.

I'm 5'8", male, 150 lbs., reasonably athletic, in pretty good shape, and probably older than most

of you but don't intend to let that hold me back!

All winter, I've been reading everything kayaking-related I can get my hands on, researching kayaks in back issues of Sea Kayaker magazine and on the web, watching DVDs on rescues, rolls, etc. (does this mean I'm hooked?), and coming up with a list of boats I think would work best for me.

Here's my current list of candidates (none of which I've tried):

NDK Explorer LV

VCP Avocet

VCP Aquanaut LV

NDK Romany

P&H Sirius or Capella (161 or 163)

I'm leaning strongly toward composite rather than plastic.

I want to get competent in rough water as soon as possible and start weekend expeditioning under moderately rough conditions. I plan to work hard this season to acquire the skills I need for a rough water symposium Labor Day weekend. I realize that most of my time on the water will be day trips, so I guess I want a boat that will also be somewhat playful. I hope to eventually play in surf once I've learned to roll.

I expect I'll be getting a 2nd boat in a few years, but for now have to decide which one to start with. Should I get the playful boat first like an Avocet or Romany and plan for an expedition boat sometime down the road? Or should I compromise and go with an all-around boat that won't be the best at anything? Or would I be better off with the stability and performance of the Explorer LV for that rough water symposium? If you have tried more that one of these on my list, I'd like to hear which are your favorite(s) and why. If there's another boat you think I should consider, please let me know.

I'd really appreciate your opinions since I want to make a purchase soon and am having trouble deciding. I know I should demo first, but my only experience is with wide, tandem plastic boats, and I'm not sure the demo-ing will tell me much other than comfort.

If you made it this far, many thanks for your time!!

If you still have energy left and don't mind offering advice on a paddle, dry suit, and PFD, I could really use that too. Unfortunately, I booked a vacation before I heard about about the New to Kayaking workshop.

Hope to join you on the water soon.

Blaine B.

[rick stoehrer]

Hello

I'm looking for advice on purchasing my first kayak and hope some of you who have paddled

different boats will offer your opinions.

I'm an eager newbie who's ocean kayaked just a few times, but enough to know I love it!

A while back I did a fair bit of whitewater canoeing up to class 3+ so I know how to use a Apaddle and make a boat go where I want it to go. I'm counting on some of that experience transferring and getting me to intermediate quickly.

I'm 5'8", male, 150 lbs., reasonably athletic, in pretty good shape, and probably older than most

of you but don't intend to let that hold me back!

All winter, I've been reading everything kayaking-related I can get my hands on, researching kayaks in back issues of Sea Kayaker magazine and on the web, watching DVDs on rescues, rolls, etc. (does this mean I'm hooked?), and coming up with a list of boats I think would work best for me.

Here's my current list of candidates (none of which I've tried):

NDK Explorer LV

VCP Avocet

VCP Aquanaut LV

NDK Romany

P&H Sirius or Capella (161 or 163)

I'm leaning strongly toward composite rather than plastic.

I want to get competent in rough water as soon as possible and start weekend expeditioning under moderately rough conditions. I plan to work hard this season to acquire the skills I need for a rough water symposium Labor Day weekend. I realize that most of my time on the water will be day trips, so I guess I want a boat that will also be somewhat playful. I hope to eventually play in surf once I've learned to roll.

I expect I'll be getting a 2nd boat in a few years, but for now have to decide which one to start with. Should I get the playful boat first like an Avocet or Romany and plan for an expedition boat sometime down the road? Or should I compromise and go with an all-around boat that won't be the best at anything? Or would I be better off with the stability and performance of the Explorer LV for that rough water symposium? If you have tried more that one of these on my list, I'd like to hear which are your favorite(s) and why. If there's another boat you think I should consider, please let me know.

I'd really appreciate your opinions since I want to make a purchase soon and am having trouble deciding. I know I should demo first, but my only experience is with wide, tandem plastic boats, and I'm not sure the demo-ing will tell me much other than comfort.

If you made it this far, many thanks for your time!!

If you still have energy left and don't mind offering advice on a paddle, dry suit, and PFD, I could really use that too. Unfortunately, I booked a vacation before I heard about about the New to Kayaking workshop.

Hope to join you on the water soon.

Blaine B.

Blaine....

if you're local, i can get my hands on some ndk demo's and you can paddle them on wednesday nights at lake gardner in amesbury. won't be rough water but you can see what they feel like and how they fit you....if you'd like we can take a paddle on the ocean and see what you think of them there....or where you probably don't have a dry suit yet (?), later in the spring tom from maine island kayak (maineislandkayak.com) is going to be doing an ndk demo day over at plum island and will have about 20 different boats with him....you can try pretty much the whole range of ndk's and he generally has one or two boats from different lines with him.

if you're interested or have questions about the rough water symposium, please email me at: rickstoehrerathotmaildotcom

ndk explorer and romany excel and shine the rougher it gets...there are no surprises and nothing offers that "oh crap" moment so you can focus on what's going on and where you want to be...which can be plenty challenging in itself. love these boats for what i do.

the avocet (plastic) is damn near indestructible (tried) and is a great, great long boat for surfing....there are all kinds of tricks and things you can pull in that little boat. awesome surfer and rock gardening boat.

the sirius is a bit more tender and is, i think, more of a point to point sort of boat...not as nimble as some unless you really commit to an edge so bear it in mind to where you are and what you want to do.

no experience in either the aquanaut or the capella.

regardless of what you buy, i and others would urge you to NOT BUY until you've sat and paddled in a few and found the one that fits you and your needs.

[EEL]

regardless of what you buy, i and others would urge you to NOT BUY until you've sat and paddled in a few and found the one that fits you and your needs.

Blaine:

Rick has given you all the advice you need and the only advice that will be worth following.

Lots of great boats out there by several makers. Only you will know which boat feels right.

We all paddle different boats even if we paddle the same model since we are all different in terms of what we like/dislike, what we are like physically and psychologically, and our primary interests in kayaking. Which means what I think is a great boat may very well not be what you will think is a great boat. Paddle a bunch, pick one that feels right, paddle it a bunch, and you will learn what you like and don't like and what kind of paddling you will most likely really be doing and that will lead to more boats.

Ed Lawson

[hopefloats]

Welcome Blaine!

One great way to demo boats is to post here to borrow someone's for a pool or lake skills session! Lake sessions tend to start as it gets warmer, not long after the New to Sea Kayaking Workshop, and they are available up to 3 to 4 times a week in different locations around the area. Many folks in this club have accumulated a collection of boats in their basements or garages and can bring an extra one for you to try. Not only is it a great opportunity to try boats, but it's a great way to talk to seasoned sea kayakers in person about gear, and find folks to kayak with & learn new skills from!

There should also be a follow-up pool session to the New to Sea Kayaking workshop offered by nspn... but that's still in the works. Keep you're eyes peeled!

There are also outfitters in the area that will let you rent-to-own kayaks... if you find one that has a few of the models you are interested in trying, you may be able to rent each of them for a time, and then if you choose one to keep at the end of the season, the rental costs invested can go towards the cost of the boat. ...that worked for me at North Shore Kayak in Rockport, and I'm sure there are others.

This thread has the potential to grow with a wealth of info, "what's the best gear" is a favorite topic! Definately take every opportunity to try boats and gear out before you buy if you can!

Good luck!

[Suz]

Hello

I'm looking for advice on purchasing my first kayak and hope some of you who have paddled

different boats will offer your opinions.

I'm an eager newbie who's ocean kayaked just a few times, but enough to know I love it!

A while back I did a fair bit of whitewater canoeing up to class 3+ so I know how to use a Apaddle and make a boat go where I want it to go. I'm counting on some of that experience transferring and getting me to intermediate quickly.

I'm 5'8", male, 150 lbs., reasonably athletic, in pretty good shape, and probably older than most

of you but don't intend to let that hold me back!

Here's my current list of candidates (none of which I've tried):

NDK Explorer LV

VCP Avocet

VCP Aquanaut LV

NDK Romany

P&H Sirius or Capella (161 or 163)

I'm leaning strongly toward composite rather than plastic.

Hope to join you on the water soon.

Blaine B.

Hi Blaine,

Welcome - you will find lots of advice here - take it all with a grain of salt!

All the boats on your list with the exception of the Sirius would be good boats to start with. You could argue all day if it is better to get one over the other. Play boat, expedition boat... learn to pack your boat lightly and a day boat can be an expedition boat. An expedition style boat will never become a play boat though so I would probably err on getting playful first but that's me.

With a barn full of boats, I choose miss playful more often than expedition - think most of us do who have choices. Sometimes people will choose the longer, less tippy boat when conditions are bigger as it gives them a feeling of security. I learned in the expedition boat and the whole while I longed for the playful boat. (I lived in a high rise and could only have one boat on the car when I started - it lived there.) Full disclosure here - P&H Team Paddler so I am a bit partial to the boats and would steer you to the 161 over the others. I sold my Romany to buy it before I was on the team...

As for paddles, if you go with either Lendal or Werner your money won't be wasted even if you prefer the other paddle as you will need two eventually so start with one good one and then if you like it buy a second, if you don't buy the other brand. Don't start with a big blade as it can wreck your shoulders before you even say boo! Your second paddle can have the big blade when you are ready for it.

PFD - I am the NE Kokatat rep so I will of course say they are the best:) Try the Ronin - with your whitewater background, you will love the fit.

I commend your enthusiasm but recommend that you buy the drysuit if you are planning on getting on the water before it gets above 50. On the classifieds Christopher is selling a brand new small - if it fits, you are in luck. If not, get to the store.

Lessons, lessons, lessons - I sense you want to fast track it and "stop wasting time". I felt the same when I started. No time to lose. Contact me off line and I will give you some recommendations. A good instructor to work with will help you get on track and stay there. You may be physically ready for that RWS on Labor Day but without some direction, you will be lost at sea both figuratively and literally!

Best of luck and see you on the water!

Suz

[EEL]

Welcome - you will find lots of advice here - take it all with a grain of salt!

On occasion a pillar of salt might be needed.

[Pintail]

Welcome, Blaine.

Ed is correct in pointing out that we are an opinionated bunch hereabouts...don't let that put you off. Heidi (dear Heidi) is <not> necessarily correct, though, about renting first, inasmuch as those people only sell Perception boats (as far as I am aware) -- maybe they sell Necky, too -- but you have shown us in your choices that you are leaning towards British boats (very good logic, Sir!)

Myself, I wonder why you are considering the Explorer LV -- I am not comfortable in one of those and I am smaller than you, by the sounds of it. The LV is of much lower volume in the foredeck. Add the <regular> Explorer to your list, however, and I think you'd be spot-on!

I loved my Explorer and I loved my Sirius, before that. The latter was my first boat and I learned plenty in it: they are fast boats and track really well -- and you can get them to turn quite dramatically, if you learn to edge them deeply.

A plastic boat might not be such a bad idea, you know: you will not be squeamish of scratching it on rocks and beaches and the Avocet is much-loved by all those I know who own one (plenty!) You will get everything you need for several days into the three hatches. The plastic Capella, ditto. Later you might like something a bit more specialised.

Look at the calender for details of the "Getting Started" workshop soon, when members of this club will be discussing equipment and suchlike.

By the way, all those boats you mention are good, seaworthy vessels.

[Deb Millar]

I second (and third) all the advice above.

As far as boats go, DEMO the variety of kayaks on your list, except for the Sirius which is a more intermediate boat which runs very straight and fast but needs more than a bit, some say lots, of skill to turn easily. I've owned P&H, although not a Capella, presently own two NDKs, and my husband has replaced his WS TempestPRO165 with two Valleys. All are fine boats, but I can't emphasize enough the need the demo in real water, not just by sitting on the Dealer's showroom floor. Please keep in mind, too, that -- just as EEL said -- one man's (or woman's) dream boat may not fit you at all. Some people will tell you immediately to get a NDK no matter what, but those boats -- and I love my two as they fit and work for me well, despite my refusal for years to paddle what everyone else was paddling -- might not work for your body and, as a result, not be very helpful towards boosting you up on the learning curve.

The same for paddles. We have both Lendals and Werners and love both, although I am partial to my Cyprus as it suits my style of paddling. Again, this is personal choice. However, I will emphasize that you spend the money for a good, lightweight paddle initially. It will serve you much better in the long run than some heavy Seal Killer that you buy at a bargain.

While I well understand your desire to learn as fast as possible, I can only tell you to take LESSONS, lessons, and more lessons and from either a reliable outfitter or a private instructor with a background in teaching kayaking. There is much more to paddling than hanging out in rough water for the thrill of it or because it, like rolling, looks cool. I will admit right here that I am a firm proponent of professional instruction and I know there are plenty who don't agree with me on this at all. However, I feel that learning from someone who knows what they are doing will enable you to paddle both efficiently and safely. You can email me privately for the names of outfitters/private instructors, although they probably will be the same ones as Suz recommends

Most importantly, read any thing here (or any other site devoted to kayaking and its ways) with a grain or a pillar, or, better yet, a huge bag of rock salt.

Deb M

[Phil Allen]

Blaine-

Everyone's given you great advice. I'm not sure where you're located, but my wife and I took advantage of a local oufitters "season pass" program for a year or two before we bought our boats. With the pass you could take out any of the boats they had for demo's on the river, and I believe the current incarnation allows for up to two weeks off-site use. Continued use of individual models over several days definitely influenced our final decisions, and we ended up with boats that were much more playful than those we were initially interested in. I don't want to advertise for them on the general discussion site, so PM me if you want more info.

Phil

[alcoons]

Blaine.

I also came from a Whitewater background and certainly am not as expert as most of the other who have already posted. However, I will add one point that is crucially important. Nothing wrong with trying boats on flat water to get the fit and general feel down. However, don't buy a boat until you have tried it in the ocean with some wind and waves. While the ocean has its calm days, what really tells me about a boat is what it does under the conditions that we are most likely to paddle in. If you have a whitewater background, you MAY be able paddle in level 3 conditions along with a group fairly quickly.

By the way, I do not know how the rest of the club feels about the Cetus, but I am in love with mine. It was designed to be a larger, faster boat that turns well. Works for me, but the gurus can chime in here.

Al

[Suz]

Blaine.

I also came from a Whitewater background and certainly am not as expert as most of the other who have already posted. However, I will add one point that is crucially important. Nothing wrong with trying boats on flat water to get the fit and general feel down. However, don't buy a boat until you have tried it in the ocean with some wind and waves. While the ocean has its calm days, what really tells me about a boat is what it does under the conditions that we are most likely to paddle in. If you have a whitewater background, you MAY be able paddle in level 3 conditions along with a group fairly quickly.

By the way, I do not know how the rest of the club feels about the Cetus, but I am in love with mine. It was designed to be a larger, faster boat that turns well. Works for me, but the gurus can chime in here.

Al

Al,

You know I love the Cetus but at Blaine's size, he needs to wait until the Cetus LV becomes available. Blaine won't wait til then I am sure. I am hoping for mine this summer.

Suz

[PeterB]

In addition to demo-ing boats at lake and pool sessions, Charles River Canoe and Kayak (in Newton, on Rte 30 right off the Rte 95, which some us still call Rte 128) has a bunch of boats , including Impex and P&H, (although no Valley and NDK, unless there's one there for sale on commission) )and you can stop by and paddle however many you want , from their dock, in a pond- like setting, although its actually a lobe off of the Charles River. There is zero sales pressure there, and the staff is helpful, although not as helpful as we are, (but who is?)

You might be able to demo some Lendal and Werner paddles there too. Try the Werner Cypress if you can: it's an in -between blade :not too big(Ikelos) not too small (Camano etc) and the Kalliste is a beauty too.The foam core in these blades is what makes them so expensive but gives them a lovely buoyant feel which is much appreciated in bracing, sculling and paddling long distances.

Get a good paddle at all costs.

Also, grab a drysuit if you can: April , May and part of June are drysuit months, and you'll then have the safety and confidence to push your skills, like rescues, bracing , (i.e you can push things without being so afraid of getting wet) which will in turn accelerate your learning and enable you to better evaluate which boat will be best for you.

[bbjorn]

Rick, Ed, Heidi, Suz, Christopher, Deb, Phil, Al, and Peter --

I'm amazed at the response to my posting. You all sound like a such genial, fun-loving bunch, even if a bit opinionated. Being half Norwegian, I'm not a stranger to strong opinions myself. I say it's a sign of intellect. My wife says it's a sign of being bone-headed.

Tons of great advice there, which I will take to heart. The one thing EVERYONE has pointed out is the need to paddle before I buy. So, I'll just try to ignore that pair of Avocets (plastic) I saw today in the Want Advertizer ($1200 ea., used only a few times, in case anyone is interested).

Suz and Deb, I agree with the need for lots of lessons in order to fast track and shorten the learning curve. That's been part of my strategic plan right along. At my age (slightly over 60 but most days I still feel 40-ish, and occasionally act an awful lot younger than that), I don't have the luxury of taking 10 years to become proficient. I will definitely contact those of you who offered to help me find some good instruction. I may be just a bit over-eager and impatient -- part of being hooked -- but I accept your sage advice and will hold off registering for that rough water symposium until I'm pretty sure I won't end up out to sea in more ways than one.

Rick, I really appreciate your generous offer to let me try a couple demo boats at the lake. I'd like to take you up on it -- I've got to get off dry land soon before I go nuts! I'll contact you offline to get more info.

Phil, Heidi - thanks for the idea of getting a "season's pass" or renting in order to try before buying. I will check that out. And I'll be watching for those post-N2SK Symposium lake and pool sessions.

Peter - thanks for the tip to get a dry suit for the next couple months. I still have an old wet suit from my windsurfing days but suspect it might not be very comfortable in a kayak, so I'm in the market for a dry suit, as well as a spray skirt and PFD.

Christopher, I don't know if you still have the dry suit you were selling, but if you do, let me know if you think I would fit into it (5'8", 150 lb.). Also, thanks for the tip about the Exlorer. I had assumed that because of my size the LV made the most sense, but I'll hold off making any judgment until I've tried them both.

Al and Suz, I'll put the Cetus LV on my short list of potential 2nd boats, which from what I'm hearing, I'll be getting a lot sooner that I ever imagined (hope my wife doesn't read any of this).

And thanks to all of you who gave me advice on paddles. I didn't know where to begin but now I know what to look for, and not to skimp.

Lot's of wisdom there in all your replies. I want to reread them over the next few days and try to absorb it all and begin putting it to use. I really appreciate all the time you put into replying. 10 replies in less than 24 hours, several of them before breakfast! Don't you guys go to work?!

Looking forward to paddling with you guys,

Blaine

[Phil Allen]

Blaine-

Since someone else suggested Charles River, I'll add that they're the company that does the season pass. Also, if you can hold out till mid summer, when MA has done its tax free sale day the last two years, they've sold their boats for <$2500 (the tax free limit). That can be a great deal on a high end boat. (Though no promises that they'll do it this year).

Phil

[bbjorn]

That sounds like another great suggestion, Phil. Not sure I'm going to last that long without owning a boat, but if I can wait, this would be a great way to save some bucks. Thanks for the idea.

Blaine

BTW, if anyone is still following this thread, there's a gorgeous Nordkapp for sale -- one of my dream boats, but not on my list of candidates because from everything I've read, it's a thoroughbred strictly for the experienced paddler. Anyone think it could be suitable for me as my expedition boat?

[alcoons]

Al,

You know I love the Cetus but at Blaine's size, he needs to wait until the Cetus LV becomes available. Blaine won't wait til then I am sure. I am hoping for mine this summer.

Suz

Good point Suz. I am planning to sell mine for $10,000 to the first buyer who does not want to wait for the local inventory to ramp up. More seriously, are they available yet in quantity?

Al

[Bill Gwynn]

Blaine

BTW, if anyone is still following this thread, there's a gorgeous Nordkapp for sale -- one of my dream boats, but not on my list of candidates because from everything I've read, it's a thoroughbred strictly for the experienced paddler. Anyone think it could be suitable for me as my expedition boat?

The standard Nordkapp would be be big for you. However the Nordkapp LV should be one to add to your list of boats to try.

[bbjorn]

Thanks for the input, Bill. I suspected as much, but thought it worth considering the one listed in the classifieds.

Blaine

[EEL]

BTW, if anyone is still following this thread, there's a gorgeous Nordkapp for sale -- one of my dream boats, but not on my list of candidates because from everything I've read, it's a thoroughbred strictly for the experienced paddler. Anyone think it could be suitable for me as my expedition boat?

Leaving aside the question of whether owning an expedition kayak makes any sense for at least 95% of us, try it. You may like it. Remember to take all such comments about boats with a goodly amount of salt. There are several versions of the Nordkapp and some are nicer all around boats than others...or so they say. Too big for me, I like little boats, so I have not a clue about it. I'm 5' 10" and 175# so Bill's comments ring true to me unless you would be routinely paddling it with say 100# of gear.

Ed Lawson

[Guest]

find a 5*

[jason]

find a 5*

fishman/_rick,

It might be more helpful to provide some guidance about boats or instructors. A BCU or ACA coach would be more helpful in terms of learning sea kayak. Having a 5* is:

"Five Star Sea is a leadership award. Successful assessment ensures that you have sufficient knowledge and skill to lead a group of adequate ability with safety in British conditions, i.e., more than three feet of surf, tidal streams of over 3 knots, and more than 25 knots of wind. This is intended for paddlers who paddle in areas where tidal races, headlands, open crossings, swell and challenging coastlines are encountered."

Being a 5* paddle does not make you a coach. Many great paddlers can't teach. It takes a special type of person, to be able to effectively teach.

If your looking for pointers for coaches within our club and local paddling community please feel free to e-mail me or take a look in the Events and Commercial Classifieds section.

-Jason

[bbjorn]

Thanks for the translation! I've been scratching my head trying to figure out what Fishman might have meant. Googling 5* obviously was no help. I agree with your statement that being an expert and being able to teach the subject of your expertise are completely different.

I appreciate your input.

[shewhorn]

Here's my own personal experience. It may not apply to you.

When I decided I wanted to get into sea kayaking I did a lot of research, tried a few boats... I'd heard from everyone that "the first boat you get will be the wrong boat for you". I was convinced that I could avoid that mistake. Well... the first boat I bought was the wrong boat for me. I'm 5'9 and 180 lbs. I bought a Tempest 170. It had too much volume for me. That said, I do not regret buying it at all as I sold it the next year in good condition so it was basically a really cheap rental.

I think for me the issue was (aside from not really having the best guidance as to what boat to get... I found NSPN after I bought the boat... I think you're getting some great advice here) that I didn't really know what I wanted to do with the boat. I didn't have personal preferences either because I didn't have experience and really, most of the boats I tried felt the same to me (I didn't have the experience to discern the performance differences between them).

So... I started with the Tempest 170. I learned most of the basics with the 170, no problem. Surfing, rolling, etc. It was when I started paddling in higher winds that I started to realize that maybe the 170 was the wrong boat for the kind of paddling I was doing (big time issue with windage for me). The second boat was a used Aquanaut (which I still have and still love). I don't forsee getting rid of the Aquanaut... ever. It's a fantastic boat for me. Initially it was my day boat (only had one boat). Then someone got me into kayak camping and WOW... it was like getting a new boat. It's so predictable and easy to paddle when loaded with a crapload of gear.

On to boat number two. I wanted to find a boat that served two purposes. My girlfriend had a 14 foot boat which wasn't really well suited to learning and paddling comfortably. I wanted something that she could learn in. I also wanted something that would be faster for her. I also wanted something that would serve as a good day paddler for me, and something that would surf a little better than the Aquanaut. Tough bill to fill... she's 110 pounds and 5'0", I'm 180 pounds and 5'9". Pretty big difference. I ended up getting a Capella 161. It's a little too high volume for her but not by too much. It's easily solved by adding a little ballast. For me it turned out to be my preferred day boat. Unfortunately I've had a hell of a time trying to surf this boat. It's a bit too low volume for me. Usually when surfing you lean forward to catch the wave. If I do that with this boat the bow will submarine and I'll endo. I have to start out leaning back to keep that bow out of the water but even then... the bow still submarines. In addition due to the low volume I sometimes "catch an edge" on the back deck if a wave slams against it whilst edging. So... that boat is now pretty much exclusively hers. I'll probably still paddle it once in a while 'cause it's still a nice boat.

Boat number 3 (which I just got) is a Valley Pintail. I wouldn't personally recommend this boat as a first boat as it has a rather unique personality (it's not what you'd call a "directionally stable" boat but I think it's reputation is far worse than reality... it does however decide on occasion that it wants to go in a different direction so if you're not paying attention the boat will quickly smack you upside the head) but so far I'm totally in love with it. Although it's 17'2" it'll turn on a dime (faster than my 16' Capella 161) as it has a lot of rocker. For me personally, it's the ultimate day boat as it's well matched to the kind of paddling I like to do and the conditions I like to play in.

So quick recap... I now use the Aquanaut for camping which I do a few times a year. I'll also use the 'naut when I know I'm going to be paddling with someone who's fast and the goal is not surfing or rock gardening. I'd say that the Pintail's biggest drawback is that it's slow. The Aquanaut is much faster (I think the Capella 161 is faster as well). The Pintail is my day boat with the Cap 161 being an occasional change of pace.

Hindsight is 20/20, if I could go back in time knowing what I know now based on the boat characteristics I like and the paddling that I primarily due... I'd have gone for a plastic Avocet to learn with (for clarity I'm not recommending that you do this as I have no idea of what the right boat is for you). Had I done that I'd probably still have it as the Avocet is a great little boat and the plastic one is perfect for playing in the rocks as you don't have to worry about it getting beat up. When I bought the Tempest I was being asked all of these questions. I was thinking that going with the bigger boat would be better because I could camp out of it if I decided I wanted to get into that but ultimately for me I learned that this was a silly compromise to make for a boat that wouldn't be loaded with that kind of weight for most of the paddling that I do.

Something to add to the list of boats to try... A Wilderness Systems Tempest 165 Pro (the fiberglass model, not the plastic one). You can often find fantastic deals on them (especially used). It's a good solid all around boat that can do a little bit of everything.

Cheers, Joe

[hoppy09]

Blaine I have a tempest 165pro I will be selling soon you are welcome to try it if you would like to take it to a pool session or wait till water warms up a bit or have proper clothing we could arange a pickup or drop off? I may attend the beverly pool session next week and if so could bring it so you could try it and also try an Avocet wich is what I paddel I'm located in Amesbury, MA 978-360-6565.

[rick stoehrer]

as the only 5* (well - there are others but those slackers just haven't gone to wales to take the test yet!) still even marginally involved with the club, i'd have to agree. the award qualifies you to lead/guide paddlers of adequate ability in full brit conditions. the award requires that the group has adequate ability (4*) and assumes you can give basic instruction but it is not qualification as such. 5*'s are guides, not instructors.

as you didn't catch the reference as it pertains to a skills qualification within the BCU maybe a little background would be beneficial?

there are 2 big organizational bodies - the british canoe union or bcu - which includes the welsh, scottish canoe unions a well as the bcu in north america - bcuna and the american canoe association or aca.

the bcu is broken down into different kinds of paddling, sea, ww, canoe, flatwater and is the older of the 2 dating back about 200 years. within those disciplines, it is further broken down to skills, coaching and then assessor qualifications.

the personal skill awards are referred to as "stars" awards and go from 1 (lowest) to 5 (highest) and the coaching awards are referred to as "levels" so you can have a coach level 1 (coach 1) through coach level 5 (coach 5). you have to hold the personal skills award that is at least 1 higher than the coaching award you seek...so if you are a 4* paddler, then you can eventually qualify through instruction and assessment as a coach 3. make sense? BUT just because you hold a skills award does not mean you hold a coaching award...it's a separate regimen of training/assessment.

now, on top of that you have the assessors that qualify the different coaching levels, referred to as "a-" for short...so if someone were a coach5, a5...that would be about the highest coaching and assessing cert available in the bcu...and there's only 1 in the US. i think there are only 2 or 3 coach5's in the us...so at some point, you can see it gets pretty rarified.

the other big organization is the american canoe association and they're set up similarly with skills awards and coaching levels and instructor trainers.

both have websites (americancanoe.org and on this side of the salty pond bcuna.com) that should answer specific questions.

it can appear a little daunting at first blush with stars and levels and blah, blah, blah, but many have found that if they prescribe to either the bcu or aca, that they advance their paddling and enjoyment of the sport faster than if left to their own devices and instruction on a club level. different people will respond and be able to work within different frameworks and to each his own...it should all be about just enjoying the water!

hope that helps