Winter Kayak Camping?

[BethS]

Oddly, I found that last year I actually enjoyed it! Peace and quiet, no lobster boats, gorgeous scenery, not to mention the fine company! I'd like to try it again, anyone interested? I know some of you have done it quite a bit in the past.

Part of the reason that I enjoyed it may have to do with having taken this class many years ago:

http://www.hbbostonamc.org/index.php/Table/Winter/

It is geared towards hiking/backpacking in winter, but the tips on comfortable winter camping and just operating in the cold with comfort and ease are truly excellent info for anyone. I highly recommend it.

Of course the big limiting factors here are weather and darkness, so the late winter/early mud season of late Feb and early March may end up being the best for such sillyness, but it's not too soon to start thinking about it!

[EEL]

Beth:

What about Fall camping when the foliage is good?

Ed Lawson

[prudenceb]

I may be.up for another winter adventure -- if I can find a way to keep my hands warm on the water.

pru

[rfolster]

Pru - have you tried poggies?

Beth - count me in! My only issue in winter is wind - you just can't escape the cold when it's windy. Darkness is not so much of an issue as long as you have good navigational skills.

[John Martinsen]

I'd love to get out for a winter night or maybe a weekend. I have a four season tent and a zero degree bag around, as well as a good cold weather cooking system. Food is fuel and fuel keeps you warm.

Also wish I could get up for the Muscongus trip, but there's something about our wedding anniversary this weekend.

[BethS]

Beth:

What about Fall camping when the foliage is good?

Ed Lawson

Also an excellent idea!

And I'm glad some others are interested in a possible snow kayak adventure.

For the hands, rather loose wrist gaskets, thin neoprene gloves that I keep on all day, and mittens or pogies on top has worked well for me.

Edited September 25, 2015 by BethS

[Philip Anderson]

Interesting...

[Nancy Hill]

Beth, I have not managed to keep my hands warm....yet! I am still experimenting with different combinations of gloves. All of the gloves and mittens (neoprene) that I have, that claim to be waterproof, have not been. I have new gortex overmitts, that might work, although when I tried a similar thing last year with neoprene mitts, I found I lacked the dexterity to use my hands to lift deck bungees and such. Hopefully, I'll find a combination of gloves that work! I'd love to go winter camping, once I find a way to keep my hands warm, but not on the coldest day of the year!

[kate]

Pogies are ridiculously warm. I wear mid-weight gloves under them which lets me feel the paddle. If I need to open a hatch or work with deck bungees, I slide out of the pogies and can do this with the gloves on. Last time I wore pogies I actually had to NOT use them now and again because my hands got too hot. They are basically a big thick neo mitten over the entire hand. Well worth trying if cold hands are keeping you from enjoying winter paddling.

Also, one point that sea kayakers seem to be less familiar with than whitewater kayakers: wax the paddle in the winter for better grip with heavy gloves. A search for "paddle wax" will bring up various products for the job.

[eburgess]

Kate, do you mind if I ask which pogies and gloves you use? Once my hands get too cold, I lose all dexterity in my fingers and can't even work my skeg slider or the buckles on my PFD. I have a pair of Kokatat tropos pogies that I wear over neoprene gloves when it is mildly cold, but am looking for something more robust. Has anyone had any success with neoprene mittens?

[Michael_Crouse]

Several years ago someone in the club bought NRS toaster mitts and he never used them because they were too warm. They might be exactly what you're looking for.

[kate]

sorry, the kind I used is no longer available. This one looks worth trying: http://snapdragondesign.com/2008/12/12/hyper-hands/

[jason]

I have had great luck with the Snap Dragon ones. http://www.outdoorplay.com/Snap-Dragon-Hot-Hands-Kayaking-Pogie

I find that I have to push them to the center of the paddle for times to let my hands cool down or just use one alternating what had has the pogie.

As for the winter camping it seems like an interesting idea.

[eburgess]

Thanks Kate, Michael, and Jason - I will order both the mitts and the pogies; hopefully one of them will do the trick.

[BethS]

Yes, i like the very thin neoprene gloves that I can still do things with, and then pogies or large mittens to go over them for extra warmth. Also wrist gaskets MUST be loose to allow circulation to your fingers! If they feel at all snug they are too tight and your hands will be cold no matter what you do. Also the gloves must fit loosely as well, it should be very easy to take them on and off, any snug feeling at all is too tight and will make your fingers cold...

[Lallen]

Wait-Kate Hartland, since when did the Southern girl who loves to fly down the frozen water begin Winter paddling? 50/50 rule clearly does not qualify as Winter paddling. ?

Edited September 30, 2015 by Lorrie

[Suz]

Our Newfoundland trip in June this year is about the coldest I want to cold water camp and paddle. Daytime temps were usually in the 50's with some reaches to 60. Snow was on the ground in places and the night temp temps were cold enough for frost on the ground in the mornings.

My thermarest wasn't up to the job of keeping the cold from coming up from the ground. I needed to add two of the chair mats under the floor of my tent to provide extra insulation. I didn't think of this on the first two nights - just kept adding clothes and it didn't work. My legs were so cold I was getting cramps in the night. I found if you sleep cold at night, you don't stand a chance of staying warm during the day.

All cooking was reheating previously dehydrated meals - that made it easier for food preparation. There wasn't a lot of chopping/prepping with cold fingers.

One really super thing about camping in June in Newfoundland was that the sun didn't set until after 9:40 or so. Not sure I would be happy with daylight ending before 6...

As for mitts - too warm for me but Kokatat makes these: http://kokatat.com/products/gloves-and-mitts/inferno-padling-mitt.html

I will bring a pair to the upcoming scheduled gasket demonstration at Newbury Kayak: http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/10842-gasket-workshop-at-newbury-kayak/

[kate]

Wait-Kate Hartland, since when did the Southern girl who loves to fly down the frozen water begin Winter paddling? 50/50 rule clearly does not qualify as Winter paddling.

Before I knew you I was doing March whitewater trips, trudging across snow to get to streams with ice-shelves still along the shoreline. Back in Maryland I kayaked year-round (but didn't have pogies then). One memorable New Year's Day trip temp was 14 degrees F and I had to keep knocking the paddle against the boat deck to dislodge ice from both. Trip ended by eddying in behind a big brown mossy rock that turned out to be a frozen dead deer. Yup, that's how we roll down south.

[Lallen]

So when did you begin applying the 50/50 rule??? Did moving North prompt that?

[Michael_Crouse]

I think there's a difference between the trip Suz is describing and a weekend trip during on a mild winter weekend. On any longer trip things get more complicated, if you read about serious winter expeditions you'll find they use vapor barriers in their sleeping bags to stop them from absorbing water from your body. The big issue I see on a multiday trip is keeping your paddling gear dry and not being able to dry out gear that gets wet.

A closed cell pad added to your summer sleeping will help a lot. Something like an Exped DAM will make you wonder how you ever used a thermarest. A tent that's not 2/3 season will make a huge difference, those all mosquito net tent bodies will not work.

The coldest overnight I ever did was Mt Lafayette, it was -20 overnight. A four season tent, a zero degree bag, and a thermarest with a closed cell foam pad worked well. I was wearing proper winter gear, like koflach boots, gIant down jacket, etc...

[rfolster]

When looking at cold-weather kayak camping trips in the past, we have always kept to the idea that it would just be a one or two night trip, only because extending beyond that became so much more challenging. Like Michael pointed out, keeping camp gear dry, and dealing with wet paddling gear (that will most likely freeze overnight) is hard enough to deal with for one or two nights, let alone much longer. Another reason is that when the weather changes in the winter time, the difference can be much more dynamic than in the summer. Finding yourself out on an island facing a 20 knot headwind back to the launch is disappointing. Facing the same 20 knot headwind when it is 20 degrees out is a dramatically daunting and seriously dangerous situation. A final reason is that if you find yourself inadequately prepared and experience a cold and sleepless night, it is better to be able to get back to a warm car the next day than to be faced with two or three days worth of paddling to get home. I am not saying that extended winter journeys can't be accomplished, but it takes so much more planning, and some specialized equipment and techniques that many of us just don't have.

As an alternative to the closed cell pad, which takes up a lot of valuable volume (you need a lot more bulkier stuff when winter kayak camping), look at the Exped Down Mat. They have a really good insulating value, and pack down pretty small. Only downside is the slim chance you get a hole and find yourself sleeping on the cold cold ground. The packing sack has a handy pouch to keep a repair kit on hand.

[John Martinsen]

One tip for the foam pads is to cut them in half and have everyone carry a half. Or cut it long enough for your torso. I use these pads as a "butt pad" instead of taking a camp chair. Makes a good seat and insulates you from the cold ground. Also works great to make first aid splints. Doesn't take much space in the boat when cut in half then folded in half, tends to pack down after a few uses. Use mine to kneel on when packing the boat, also in my tent vestibule to get in and out.

[EEL]

Nice tip about carrying half a foam pad.

Ed Lawson

[kate]

So when did you begin applying the 50/50 rule??? Did moving North prompt that?

Yes. 1) I'm older. 2) The skiing is better here.

Sorry about minor thread hijacking. I too think John's foam pad suggestion is great!

[BethS]

Wow, glad to see that there is so much interest in this topic! And thanks for the tip about cutting the foam pad in half. I usually use 2 pads in winter, one inflatable and one foam. That way I always have something if the inflatable springs a leak. The foam one does get bulky though.

Rob and everyone else, I agree that 1-2 night trips are much more realistic (I'd vote for 2, just because it hardly seems worth the trouble to just go for one night!) It does become very difficult to keep stuff dry on longer trips, and wind is a BIG issue in cold weather. So far the weather has still been lovely, but supposedly it is going to be a snowy winter...