Cartopping 3 boats

[josko]

I'm looking for advice on how to carry 3 boats on top of my Jetta wagon. It 'looks like' I should be able to fit 3 Malone kayak racks on a 58" bar, IF none of the bars need to go right over the roof-attachment pieces. I also realize the middle kayak will be a pain to load/unload.

Has anybody tried this, with what racks, and how did it work out? Thanks in advance.

[Phil Allen]

We've got the Jetta wagon as well, with 48" bars and two yakima swing open J-craddle link things. We can just barely squeeze a boat on its seam between the two cradles. Put a piece of foam under it and strap it off one of the cradles and it's good to go.

If you need to buy gear, the best approach is the vertical stackers, with all the boats on seam. Probably could get 4 or 5 on a 58" bar that way, but don't ignore the weight limits.

best

Phil

[mbhazeltine]

I think you can also do J racks on either side and the wing in the middle. Be wary of the factory racks though. With multiple boats on top the wind loading can be very large.

[Suz]

First advice is to check your load limits!

If within limits for the boats you are carrying, stackers work really well when there is a good spread between the bars AND you use at minimum a bowline. The problem with a short spread/long boats and wind shear should be obvious! But if not, I will explain to the uninitiated - the boats can blow and twist sideways and could end up pulling the rack off. Just slightly off parallel to the car can do it too. Bowline may not prevent this from happening on it's own but it can alert you to what is going on above your head on the roof.

[rick stoehrer]

did 3 on a jetta with both j-saddle-j and a then j-j-j formation. yes, the boat in the middle goes on first, yes it is a giant PITA.

have done same on the escalade and it's an even bigger PITA cause its so high off the ground. you climb up and stand on the tires and then along the interior like a damn acrobat to get it done but it can be done.

bowline is a good idea....gives you a heads up. think it's a thule set up i'm using...50 odd inch bars....don't use the factory racks.

mileage SUCKS.

[lhunt]

Might get some more ideas here... If one of the J-bar sets is a folding rack it makes loading the middle boat much easier.

Edited April 1, 2015 by LHuntington

[Nancy Hill]

We regularly carry 3 kayaks on our Jetta Wagon on a Thule rack. We use a saddle (front)/sliding thing (rear) in the middle (actually off to one side a bit for when there is only one kayak up there - easier to tie down).. We extended our Thule bars out past the rack by 5". We remove the end cap and slide Malone J-bars onto the rack. We load the middle kayak before we slide the second J-bar onto the opposite side. When we want to get everything down, we slide the middle kayak off the back, or if people are tall enough it is not too difficult to lift the middle kayak up and over an empty J-bar. We have the old style towers that allow us to extend our Thule bars out past the towers. Some newer versions probably don't allow for that. The one thing we have to remember to do is tie the middle kayak down before we put the third kayak up. This setup has been working for us for ages. Someday, we'll probably replace one of the non-folding Malone J-bars with one that folds down to make it a little easier to move the middle kayak.

[scamlin]

Agree with Suz: stackers are the easiest--and likely cheapest. When needed I put three full size boats on edge on a 48" Yakima bar with one stacker offset one third of the way to one side. Two boats against the stacker, and the third one spoons with the center boat--may need some strategic bits of padding if you are fussy about the finish on your boat. No saddles or J-racks to get in the way of loading the center boat.

Three boats are about the limit: most racks have a factory limit of 150 lbs--and that doesn't include the wind load Suz mentions which is likely to be a bit more than the auto manufacturer plans on you having up top.

Cheers,

Scott

[Michael_Crouse]

I've carried 3-4 kayaks on my trac rack with nothing but foam. All kayaks on their sides, foam between the kayaks (to avoid scratching) and lots and lots of straps. Kayaks strapped together, kayaks strapped to the opposite sides of the rack so they were pulled against each other. It worked amazingly well. If this is for a one time trip you can probably do it without purchasing any additional gear.

[Pintail]

Trust Mike Crouse for practical advice/experience; but as for someone above who mentioned the word escalade (is that related to an escalator, Rick?), serves you right, if you have to become a mountaineer to stow your kayaks! An Escalade?! (What mileage do you get to the gallon? Ha ha!)

[rick stoehrer]

just back from SC with 3 boats up there - same rig i had set on the jetta, just a taller car....5 foot yakima bars with saddle and 2 malone j's...worked just fine and that was a long old drive. cinched tight and no, we didn't run a bowline. all worked just fine.

[leong]

just back from SC with 3 boats up there - same rig i had set on the jetta, just a taller car....5 foot yakima bars with saddle and 2 malone j's...worked just fine and that was a long old drive. cinched tight and no, we didn't run a bowline. all worked just fine.

From CRCK:

Bow & Stern Tie-Downs

Importantly, always tie down both the bow and stern to a secure point on the vehicle. We see an instance every year where a loaded rack fails and is blown off a car on the highway. Simple bow and stern lines prevent this catastrophe. It's common sense anytime you car-top your boat!

Here's an actual accident report.

It’s your risk to take.

-Leon

[rick stoehrer]

sadly, even more often than rack failure we read reports every year about kayakers dying and a lot of those times, they're paddling solo. clearly, you are taking a bigger risk than i am leon.

you don't need to explain to me your thought processes or safety measures in this reckless solo paddling any more than i need to explain the safety measures i take in securing and checking the rack and the boats repeatedly during any trip. we probably could safely assume that after 20+ years of doing this and after countless miles over the road and the water that we each are probably pretty secure in what we're doing? that experience has probably brought us to our practices? probably?

on the other hand, what you do is none of my business and it isn't my place to police your behavior....if you want to paddle solo, please feel free. if you don't, please feel free.

regarding crck....they may be very well communicating to a market segment that can barely set the rack up on their respective car's roof....in which case, the more line, lashing, tie downs and cable they can throw on there, the better.

as far as attaching racks and boats to roofs, if you really want to be boots and suspenders leon, attach the aftermarket rack (use a little loc-tite so there's less chance of that coming loose) and then additionally lash those aftermarket bars to the factory bars in place on the roof. then, tie down your boats on their saddles or j's and then then tie them down to the factory racks and then use bow and stern lines to the frame of the car. further options might include: hire those cars with the yellow lights that chaperone wide loads with flag car to follow in back to make sure your travel lanes stays clear. use your flashers and only travel around 40 mph so you don't add too much wind resistance.

in short, yes, it is my judgment...and since most recently i've traveled at highway speeds in a storm with accompanying high winds (tornado watch for awhile) from SC to NE....it would seem that judgment has been sound.

[leong]

Rick,

Good response as usual. I don’t disagree with what you’ve said; however, I’m not trying to change your mind. My bow and stern line warning was to counter your “no, we didn't run a bowline” statement. It was a general tip for the hundreds of potential readers of this message board (some readers may be unaware of the added safety of using bow and stern lines). Personally, I avoid driving behind cars carrying kayaks when I notice there are no bow and stern lines.

Regarding the risk of paddling alone, for me (usually) the decision is to paddle or not to paddle. I love to paddle so I take the added risk of paddling alone. But I do reduce the risk in the usual ways; i.e. wear PFD, know my limits, have self-recovery skills, blah, blah.

Peace,

-Leon

PS
I can easily swim a few miles. Paddling solo I’m never more than a mile from shore. For six months of each year sharks are my main concern.

[leong]

Rick,

At the risk of driving you nuts (and hijacking this thread again) allow me to argue further why I think one is taking an unnecessary risk by not using bow and stern lines. Here goes:

As I interpret what you’ve stated you realize that all of us must balance between a risk (a bad result) and the cost and effort necessary to reduce that risk. Actually, it should be a utility-based risk determination; i.e. how one values the risk.

Considering the safety measures you already take when transporting kayaks you believe that it’s very improbably that your kayak will fall off of the car. I agree with that. And I know that you realize that a kayak falling off the car could be something very serious. So the question is do you agree that there is some incremental risk reduction if bow and stern lines are also used?

If you agree then consider the following: The cost and effort to attach bow and stern lines is trivial compared to the potential negative result of the risk. So why not take this additional safety measure? It takes about 5 minutes to attach the bow and stern lines. It’s not a big deal.

Respectfully,

-Leon

Edited April 23, 2015 by leong

[alec]

We regularly carry 3 on our roof, one of which is a tandem sea kayak. We have a minivan which has a very long roof and have had an extra bar fixed at the front of the roof. I have replaced the commercial bars with ally bars slightly shorter than the distance between the wing mirrors, which is the legal max width. This gives three attachment points and ample width for three boats. The distance between the front and back bars is over 6 feet as compared to the usual ~3 of factory systems.

We use vertical bars if we need to support the boats on their sides.

I would urge an abundance of caution in doing this. For us three attachment points that are so far apart virtually eliminate pitching and massively reduce yaw. You may not be able to do this on your roof but you aren't dealing with a tandem. Most commercial rack systems are rated for ~200 lb and you are probably looking at 3x50 lb or thereabouts. I would recommend bow and stern lines, but you are probably doing this already. Finding a good anchor point on the front of most cars is not easy. To me the main purpose of bow and stern lines is to reduce pitching and with it the localized forces on your rack. The bow line also resists the tendency of the boats to lift at speed so it reduces total force on the rack.

Wind loading can be a bit of a beast. Where possible mount the boats upside down which reduces the overall height (and so frontal x section), aligns the natural curve of your boat to airflow over the car and is usually more stable because most kayak decks are flatter than their keels. Even so, travel is more governed by airspeed than ground speed. A following wind might be comfortable above 70, a headwind a little lively at 55.

i hope this is helpful, sorry if it is late and the thread is a bit cold.

[Suz]

Alec who just posted brings up the point about spread... it really is the spread (or rather the lack of it) that creates the need for the bow/stern lines. I would hazard that on Rick's Escalade, the spread is greater than on his previous Jetta reference. Hence less need for bow/stern....

On my previous Honda Odyssey (now that was the best boat hauler)...I had a drilled rough and super spread. I still used a bow line - simply to notify me what was going on up on the roof. (When the line tightens or loosens of changes location, it is an indication that the load has shifter on the roof.).

[leong]

Alec who just posted brings up the point about spread... it really is the spread (or rather the lack of it) that creates the need for the bow/stern lines. I would hazard that on Rick's Escalade, the spread is greater than on his previous Jetta reference. Hence less need for bow/stern....

Suz,

Yes, for a given boat size, the risk of failure is reduced as the spread between the carrying bars is increased. However, due to overhang, the length of the boat needs to be considered for a given spread. For example, a five-foot spread for a 10-foot boat is much safer than the same spread for an 18-foot boat. However, why not use bow and stern lines for either case? The additional risk reduction comes at negligible increase in cost and effort.

-Leon

[leong]

PS

It's just dumb to travel without a bow and stern line. Forget the risks to your car or your boat. That’s trivial. Instead, think about the family with four kids traveling in back of you when your 50 lb. kayak comes crashing through their windshield. Then think of what the survivors' lawyer can say about you in front of a jury when he asks for punitive damages. He’ll probably say that you were way beyond being merely negligent; you were reckless with regard to his clients' lives. And your insurance might not cover this.

One of the main goals of NSPN is sea-kayaking safety. That should include traveling to and from the put-in. So this is posted as a public service. It’s one thing to risk your own life (like paddling solo). It’s another thing to risk someone else’s life.

Respectfully,

-Leon

[rick stoehrer]

OH, it's for the children? the last bastion of a weak ass argument?

Please by all means, use bow and stern lines. and duct tape. and chains and maybe just don't go anywhere lest some gd second guessing pain in the ASS discuss what you may or may not be doing that they don't agree with....when there isn't a standard and (any?) historical data reflecting injuries from kayaks alighting from roofs and crashing into buses full of nuns and orphans.

[Michael_Crouse]

6.5 foot spread on my trac rac, that's rated to carry 1000lbs. If I'm going a long distance I will use extra straps.

My rack safety check is

1) grab the rack and shake it, the truck moves and the rack does not shift

2) grab the boat and shake it, the boat does not move on the rack, the rack/truck moves

Then I drive

I personally do not like bow and stern lines because of the risk of catching them on something and damaging the boat. I do use them on a rack with a short spread.

[leong]

Rick,

I guess you believe that your past experience traveling sans bow/stern lines is a guarantee of future safety. There are no such guarantees. Taking reasonable precautions is, er, reasonable. Consider this:

In United States v. Carroll Towing Co., Judge Learned Hand articulated that reasonable precaution has something to do with balancing the burdensomeness of taking a particular safety precaution against the probability and severity of the injuries the precaution protects against.

Basically he said that it is unreasonable not to take a minimally burdensome precaution if it will significantly reduce the likelihood of someone suffering a serious injury. As the precaution becomes more burdensome, the idea of not taking the precaution becomes less unreasonable.

Clearly, using bow and stern falls is a reasonable precaution that is not burdensome.

-Leon

[leong]

I personally do not like bow and stern lines because of the risk of catching them on something and damaging the boat. I do use them on a rack with a short spread.

Hmm, are you saying the chance of snagging with a long spread is more than it is with a short spread?

[rick stoehrer]

hmmn, as my response has been edited for lack of family friendly content....what i find burdensome is what you or anyone else finds to be a requirement in lieu of my personal judgment/experience.

conversely, there is no guarantee that a bow/stern line ensure safety and that further, that the additional lines WOULDN'T cause a problem, ie, snagging, etc. so then, would the reasonable precaution to have been in avoiding the extra line?

i've never seen anyone have a boat fly off of their roof and hurt anyone but i have seen someone drive over their own bowline and snap the boat in half. what would happen at 60 miles an hour with that happening? worse things? probably. think of the children.

you know, it's funny - you say you don't risk other people in paddling alone but SHOULD you have a problem and need emergency services, you would be in fact, putting responders at risk. just cause you're an older gent and it hasn't been a problem so far, that is no guarantee of future safety. There are no such guarantees. Taking reasonable precautions is, er, reasonable.

Edited May 5, 2015 by rick stoehrer

[leong]

Okay, Rick, I think I understand why you’re annoyed. I didn’t mean to berate how you travel. On the contrary, I have great admiration for your experience, knowledge and skills. And I’m sure that you do an excellent job checking out your cartopping system before you drive away. But unlike other skills there’s nothing you can do in real time when a mechanical part randomly breaks or loosens. That’s why I believe in “belts and suspenders” for when severe consequences are possible.

Note that I did state earlier that my main purpose was to promote bow/stern lines for readers that may not be as careful or knowledgeable as you.

>> you know, it's funny - you say you don't risk other people in paddling alone but SHOULD you have a problem and need emergency services, you would be in fact, putting responders at risk.

Yes, of course. That might be true if I were paddling with a group too. But your point is correct. I’m actually friendly with some CG guys. Their local station is directly across the bay from me (about a mile away).

>> i've never seen anyone have a boat fly off of their roof and hurt anyone but i have seen someone drive over their own bowline and snap the boat in half.

Yes, sometimes (rarely) a bow line could cause a problem. This reminds me of my “PFD could be dangerous” story posted here http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/8754-shark/#entry50969and repeated below:

I was paddling from the ocean to the bay through an inlet in Florida. Fast powerboats were going through the inlet, but I was far from the channel where they were and they were loud enough to hear. Suddenly, I realized a slow moving (perhaps 10 knots) catamaran was bearing down from behind me, only yards away. It was too late to get out of the way. Just as the catamaran collided with me I rolled over to get into the water and dive down. The buoyant force of the PFD prevented me from diving down as deep as I had wanted to (I was trying to get far below the propellers). However, I lucked out; when I surfaced I was almost exactly half way between the two hulls (far away from either of the two propellers).

Of course I still use my PFD (and seatbelts in the car, even though they sometimes hold people in a burning car).

Anyway, peace and stay safe.

-Leon