rfolster

Leon, there is not enough information to answer the question! What about boat drag, wave height, kayaker's breakfast choice? Oh, never mind. I think I will stay clear of this one.

Have we told you lately how much we appreciate you being a member of the Network and sharing your wealth of knowledge about both gear and kayaking in general? Thanks for the testing tips!

If you do a search, I believe that there was a recent discussion regarding drysuit option preferences in which hoods were discussed.

Sorry Bill & Doug, but I will have to count surfing out of the options for this trip. I don't think (just an assumption here) that many of the interested are surfers on a good day, let alone in the cold. Still looking for ideas as I would like to have several options to account for conditions and participant locations.

This sounds to me more like one of Leon's brain teasers, so I am trying to get a grasp of what it is you are getting at. I would first interject one small facet to the conversation. I would offer the idea that ACTUAL risk is inversely proportional to experience (the more experience you have, the more you are able to reduce the risk factors). Oddly enough, PERCEIVED risk is (usually) directly proportional to experience (the less experience you have, the less you are able to understand the risks you face). With that said (and maybe not said well), I am thinking that many risks have an inverse linear correlation to experience. Let's take wind as the most popular example so far in the thread. You say that 20-25kt winds are only an annoyance, but does that hold true for an L2 paddler? No, for them high winds is a high risk. For a 5* paddler, these conditions are a "refreshing breeze". So, I would like to offer some possible conditions that do NOT have a linear proportion of risk-to-skill ratio. Fog: Even for a 5*, fog presents huge risk variables that take an extraordinary quantity of skills to manage: navigation; communication (VHF radio and the knowledge to use it properly); local knowledge of currents (you can't anticipate ferry angle if you can't see the current); all of which are very specialized skills that take an enormous amount of practice to master. However, neither the L2 paddler nor the 5* can learn how to avoid an idiot in a silent sailboat who is not using a VHF radio. Cold Water: I hope that everyone who attended the cold water workshop is much more comfortable paddling in colder water, and understands the benefits of dressing appropriately and using the proper gear and equipment. However again, the L2 paddler is just as prone to an unforeseen on come of cold shock or hypothermia as a 5* would be. Those are two that I am able to come up with. Does anyone have any others, or would like to refute my assessments?

Yes, it is real! I saw that tug (is there more than one?) somewhere this summer - Boston maybe?

Have you paddled in cold water before? We are planning a New Year's Day paddle. Even if you can't commit to a paddle, maybe you want to come out and meet a couple of people and see how we opperate.

One of the biggest issues with wind chill is the face. You can put on all kinds of technical clothing, but the hardest areas to protect are the lips, nose, cheeks, and eyes. There are hoods and masks out there that will help, but I have always had a problem with them icing over when I am skiing. Haven't tried any on the water...yet! Leon, if anyone can come up with a formula to calculate wind chill based on water saturation, temperature, and salinity, it is you. Don't forget to also include body mass (fat ratio) and hair coverage while you are at it.

I would also like to extend thanks to all of the long-term members who choose to offer their assistance as well. Suz said that this was the largest group to ever participate in the workshop, and I think that having some senior membership on hand made for an excellent day for everyone! Thinking back to last years event (my first), I opted not to do any rolls, or even get in the water beyond the beach. There is so much emphasis on what can go wrong, you can get yourself psyched out. If I am not mistaken, this time was actually my first time going upside down in cold water, and I would like to give a personal thanks to Doug for being patient and encouraging while spotting for me. And for anyone who asks, the answer is no - the beard does not insulate against 45 degree water! One suggestion I would like to throw out there is to always test your gear before you go out on a paddle. I know that a couple suits encountered small leaks yesterday, and you would not want to find that out at an inopportune time. Any chance you get, give yourself and your equipment a thorough workout. A short dip before any paddle will give you the chance to burp your suit, test your layering to make changes while you still can, and test your warm-up clothing and techniques as well. It will also give you a chance to tell the other paddlers in your group why you are wearing a dry suit when they are in neoprene shorts and short sleeve tops - you know, on one of those amazing 70 degree day in the Spring when the water is still around 40 degrees (actually happened to me last year). I am happy to see the increased participation and look forward to an even larger group next year. Don't worry Suz, we will give you all the help you need!

OK Leon - so I will admit some stupid mistakes on my part in that I should have multiplied instead of divided (I don't know if that would have helped me) and I used the word force in stead of power. But now let's consider the analysis of the actual data. Were they just made up for this exercise or did you find them for a particular boat?

1.21 gigawatts!

This type of question always frustrates me since there is not enough information to solve the problem. What you need to know is how much force is being asserted to make the boat move through the water. The amount of force should vary in direct proportion to the speed of the boat. More force = faster speed. You should be able to find a correlation between the amount of force applied and the speed of a given boat. However, in this instance you can not solve for a direct correlation between force, speed, and drag since the numbers are not consistent across the data range you provided. If we divide the drag by the speed, we get the amount of force needed to achieve each speed. Here is the math: Old Boat: 4.213(pounds) / 5.5(knots) = .8425(force) New Boat: 3.312(pounds) / 5.0(knots) = .6624(force) 3.830(pounds) / 5.5(knots) = .6964(force) 3.914(pounds) / 5.7(knots) = .6867(force) 4.213(pounds) / 6.0(knots) = .7022(force) Now I would have said that you just need to find out the ratio between the amount of force applied to the amount of resistance of the new boat to find the corresponding speed. If you then applied the old boat force, you would get the new boat speed. However, this is not possible since the new boat specifications say it takes less force to travel 5.7 knots than it did at 5.5 knots, which should not be possible. The lack of consistent information makes this mathematically impossible to solve. Therefore, Cathy's calculation is correct based on the real-world expectation that approximately the same amount of force is being applied to the same resistance. Since the same unknown amount of force is applied to the same drag (4.213), then the only variable is the speed, which would end up being the calculated 6 knots.

Interesting.... I did not find any trip posting or report. I think that weather could make it hard to turn this into an annual event, but we can certainly try!

Of course - seeing as we will be the "idiots" paddling in the middle of the winter. I assume boat traffic in Boston Harbor would be minimal to non-existant on New Year's Day. Can you or anyone else confirm?

I know that Suz mentioned last year that there was going to be a new blend that would provide wicking capabilities. For those of you using wool, is it pure or a blend? Do you have any issues with the wool getting damp with sweat or no?

New Year's Day is on a Tueday this year, but since many people have the day off, a couple of us have bounced around the possibility of a paddle. There are no actual plans at this point, but I am just trying to gauge interest. Obviously, this will be a cold water trip, so appropriate gear is a must. It is also extremely weather-sensitive, so multiple locations may be considered and decided upon within a day or so of the trip in order to maximize optimal weather conditions. My thoughts are that we need a minimum of six people to go, as any less would limit options for safety. Also, we should stick with protected harbors or shores with good emergency options such as beaches or populated areas. I think this should be a time-duration trip and not destination oriented so that we don't feel any urging to make the destination should conditions make it a challenge. Please post here if you are interested, and any thoughts you might have for locations and time duration.

As suggested by Suz in the Sea Ice thread, I am starting a new topic to discuss clothing and techniques for cold weather / cold water paddling. All are welcome to join in, and also review last year's discussions as Gary indicated in the Sea Ice thread. My biggest suggestion to all is to start with a very thin, wicking first layer. However, what I find to be most important about this layer is not only the performance, but vanity! I know that, in general, kayaking is not for the modest, but I think that we all have our limits. Let me explaine where I am coming from. When I paddle in cold water, I bring additional layering options with me, as well as extra dry bags, to allow me to adjust my comfort layer. Adjustments may be necessary due to any of the following: miscalculations of the weather and water temperature; change in weather during the day; change in paddling activity level; dampness due to perspiration; and so on. If I need to add or reduce my layers, I will wait for a scheduled rest or request an extra stop so as to make the adjustments. I think that people in general appreciate not having to see my skivies when changing my layers, and I appreciate not exposing my bare skin directly to cold air. I have been using a polyester layer that has worked really well for me as it wicks well and doesn't seem to build up a stink, although I haven't done a week long trip in them - yet! I have thought about moving to silk, which is supposed to have incredible insulating value to weight ratio, but don't know about it's overall performance. Has anyone used silk and, if so, your comments? As for the most base of all base layers, everyone says to avoid cotton undies it at all costs, and it is absolutely right! Cotton will get damp just from even the slightest amount of body moisture, and will feel very cold inside multiple layers. I had a hard time giving up my comfy cotton, but finally broke down this year and got a pair of ExOfficio (www.exofficio.com) undies, and OMG they are fantastic!! They are somewhat expensive compared to regular cotton undeware, but they are well worth the cost. Most people will only need one pair, which can last a whole weekend of camping, and maybe even a week expedition. A second pair may be needed for those doing extensive expedition trips. For insulating layers, I have the Kokatat Polartec liner as well as a pair of Duofold (www.duofold.com) thermals that I have had for years from my skiing days. They have dual layers for additional warmth and a wicking waist band on the pants. I have never used wool, but am interested, especially with newer technologies of wool blends that provide better wicking.

Initial launch raft up (from my bow cam) Pru hamming it up November on the water Strip of sun from somewhere With no specific belief in any deity, it is moments like this that give me pause to wonder… Pru taking a picture of Warren... who was taking a picture of me taking a Picture of Pru Dinner reservations on the upper west side All snuggled in for a cold November night... just so we can enjoy a crisp November morning

Some comments from the nut gallery: Stoves - I have an MRS Whisperlite stove that allows the fuel canister to be inverted for supposed cold weather cooking, which might help if the Jetboil fails, but only if it works as they say it will. Both types will be tested as much as possible. I have gotten into the practice of bringing extra food that does not need water or to be cooked in case of the following: stove/fuel failure, water shortage, severe weather, being stranded/trip extended, assistance to others, etc. Clothing - Layers!!!! Having the ability to adjust your layers, not only before you start out, but DURING your trip is very important. I took advantage of a campsite evaluation stop to add a sub-layer to improve my comfort level during a cold-wind day. You must have the layers available and be willing to take the time to stop and make the necessary adjustments. Gear - This has been a recent focus, including 7 different sleeping bags/liners for three people to try out to find the right combinations. There is nothing worse than being cold when trying to sleep. Location - Jason, you have an interesting suggestion that might be considered as a secondary plan for a given weekend. We have been focusing on islands that are close to the launch to facilitate a quick and easy trip-abort if necessary. Also, the day paddling is becomming much more conservative, with an eye towards protected areas close to civilization. Weather - As the temperature continues to lower, the wind and moisture factors increase exponentially. A 10kt wind in September is manageable while a 10kt wind in December can be a deal-breaker. A 60% chance of rain in August would be welcomed, but in November may flip a go/no-go decision. Duration - December is not the time to test out gear and skills on a four-day/three-night trip. One night at most from this point on will be the norm. Agenda - It may turn out that, at some temperature, it just doesn't make sense to camp. I know that there are some that paddle year round, and that seems risky enough. In that regard, winter camping has it's own set of risks. However, if you prepare, just as you do kayaking, then you should be able to remain safe and maybe even have a little fun. Who knows, maybe WE will become the winter kayak-camping experts. Maybe we will be the experts that say "don't go winter kayak-camping!!", but we would prefer to say "where do you want to go, and can we come along?!"

I think Ed has a good point about gear freezing up solid. One consideration is to only camp where fires are allowed, and making firewood sourcing a priority in order to be able to dry out gear and keep warm in general. I think that this might be a good question for Suz and Scott at the cold water clinic. Warren, to you want to keep this thread just on ice or bring all cold-weather camping into it? As far as ice is concerned, what about shorelines? I would assume that they get coated as soon as the air temp hits the bottom 30s with a wind-chill, and definitely the 20's which I would expect in December, especially overnight. Does anyone have experience traversing over frozen rocks or ice-covered beaches at put-ins and landings?

Thanks for the kind words, Warren. I think Mother Nature saw me sign up for this trip some time ago and tried to drop this hurricane on our heads but missed by a day. Maybe it was just a warning shot, or maybe she did choose to spare the others, In any case, it is not just you that she is after. Trust me, she has had here eye on me for some time, including the fall Jewell Island trip when it felt like she tried to blow us all out to sea! As far as paddling into December, I think that some of the people who are done paddling for the year have been commenting about a couple of crazies that are thinking of camping in the winter. To each their own :-)

Posted on behalf of Katherine who is spending the week "unplugged" from the world..... Six paddlers, fueled up on some very well made cranberry scones (thanks Janice!), set off from Kittery Point and headed towards the marsh for a day of paddling, sightseeing, feasting, and swimming in the afternoon sunshine. With the incoming tide and plenty of shelter from any winds, the paddle was easy going. We turned left through the culvert under Seapoint Road with only a slight push with the current. Once into the marshes, we began to feel the effect of the winds, a fine mist that had developed (where was the sun?) and then the remaining flood tide. Navigating through the twists and turns with the oncoming current and winds made for some challenging paddling, but everyone got through just fine. As we approached Brave Boat Harbor, we could hear the ocean, and began to feel some of the swells even before we were out of the marsh. Once we passed through the old pilings, we encountered some swells close to a foot high. Landing for brunch would be an issue since some of the area is private and other areas were getting hit with surf from the brewing storm. The decision was for the bulk of the group to poke around the northern end of the harbor while two of us took an early stop on a point at the entrance from the marsh. Apparently having spent some time at a fabulous all-you-can-eat lobster buffet (aw, too bad some of us missed it!), the explorers made there way back to the point and the whole group enjoyed a break. We set off once again to meander across the flooded marsh, paddling over spots that can almost never be paddled over due to the extra high water levels. Making our way back through the twist and turns, paddling was much easier with the wind to our back and not fighting the current, but riding it. Back through the Seapoint Road culvert, we decided to turn left and look upstream towards the beach. Entering another section of marsh, we were quickly set into a series of switch-backs and tight turns, once again paddling against the current. Ever thoughtful of lowering water levels, we dared to continue on to see just how far we might get. After a good 20 minutes or so of hair-pin turns and dodging some flotsam of loose marsh grass, it was finally called to turn around. Turning around 16 and 17 foot long kayaks in a maybe 15 foot wide channel is not easy!! Paddling down Chauncey Creek was just as enjoyable as the paddle up. At the entrance to the Creek, we decided to waste a little time paddling along the edge of the Piscataqua River to see Wood Island and Whaleback light. What we could see of them through the mist that was quickly turning into a light rain made us decide that the day was done and it was time to head in. Back at the launch, the gear was packed up, and the scones were passed around once more (thanks again, Janice - they were very good!). For many, this may be their final paddle of the season. Although the sun never did come out to give Katherine here chance for a mid-day swim, and even though the wind and mist did make their appearance, I still say any day on the water is a good day. Thanks to Katherine for organizing the trip and to those who participated.

Unfortunately Saturday is not working out for me - sorry.

Everyone knows that REAL men and women alike all wear skirts!

Kate, I also had a second motive for breaking camp: as practive for future expeditions where you camp at each location for only one night and then move on to the next section of the trip. I think that breaking down camp and setting up again helps you evaluate the gear you use, what you bring, and how you set up. One issue we encountered was a theory of mine to only take out the bivy, pad, and sleeping bag, plus warm clothing and cold food. All of my other gear, including a backup tent, water, stove, additional paddling and land clothing, etc was left in the boat. This turned out to be a bad idea the next morning when we needed to move the boats from thier overnight perch to the low-tide put in. Warren's boat was managable since he had all of his gear in his tent vestibule, but my boat was pretty heavy, especially for only two to carry. Lesson learned!