rfolster

When considering a camping trip this weekend, a few of us realized that the ocean is going to be very active this weekend, with swells in Maine about 5-6' at around 15-17 seconds, and some wind waves on top to boot. Does anyone have the experience to know if this is a complete no-go weekend, or are there some areas along the NE coast that a group can go work on skills-in-conditions. Safety is the biggest concern, and I am opting for a look-see from shore rather than needing a ride from the CG.

For all those interested in joining us, please PM your email address so that we can start woring out details.

Leon, since you have done your homework and verified that you did, indeed, do the right thing, I don't think anyone can offer a "logical" reason why the call was wrong. I think the real question might be: Was it necessary? We have become a society that tends to shun laws such as speeding, drinking and driving (or boating), drugs, etc. Most people just don't want to get involved and depend on law enforcement to police the general populace. Your call on the radio is more than anyone will ever do in the situation you were in, whether that is good or not. While I commend you for your civic duty, I will also point out that you may have made others (myself included) recognize their short-comings, and that is just not fair!! I offer my apologies if I had any part of the original post being removed. I admit that I was unkind, but only for the reason of making a point. Jason, it has been brought to my attention that there is a "report" feature within these postings. Is that a course of action that we can take if we feel the thread is going in a destructive direction?

Turns out Cathy and I will not be able to make it (again!). We will try for next month.

Cathy and I will try to make it. We have never gone on a moonlight paddle and would really like to get at least one in this year.

Cathy and I can not make it to the lake this week. Have fun!

Thank you Lorrie for your insightful and thoughtful post. I think that some of the posters here who paddle "only with friends" may have actually found those friends through NSPN. As for the problems with CAM, I will continue to invite people to step back for a moment and consider what the issues are and how we might consider improvements. I actually think that the CAM system is an absolutely perfect system for a group of club-members, who may have never even met, to get together on the water and have a safe AND enjoyable trip, if they want. I envy those of you that have your special little paddling buddy groups, and someday hope to have my own. And trust me, I cannot wait to get out on my own solo paddles as well, for I am the Bearded Recluse! But even when I become the third only 5*BCU Coach in America, I will still welcome all members, newbies and veterans alike, to join me on the next CAM adventure, and maybe I will find yet another paddling buddy. I believe in CAM, and will find a will and a way to make it work. Despite the conflicts that continue to boil over, I refuse to yield. Therefore, yet another topic is around the corner.

While you are at it, how about contributing to the conversation at hand. Do you have any suggestions for keeping groups within voice range and prevent wandering or dispersing as we have been discussing?

Thanks Warren. I have actually been thinking about initiating a L2 trip, but still trying to get my own act together to make sure that I can be the best cruise director I can. Solo trips have been mentioned (with some derision, I might add), and I wonder if in some respects it is easier. STOP - no comments, I am only musing out loud since I have not done a solo - yet. I am only commenting on the fact that, on a solo trip, you are only responsible for your self and you do not need to take the wants and needs of others into consideration. If you want to fight a 2k current through a pass instead of paddling around for the next two hours, that is your choice. I need to do some sound-offs to my editor tonight to see if I should push this thread any more. Since this really is about personalities more than any other aspect of CAM, I might need to let this one simmer and move on to the next topic.

Hmmmm... Is the problem of keeping a group together on the water more of a personality thing like getting magnets of the same polarity pushing against each other?

Referee?

I agree Ed, and my understanding is that the club is still trying to figure out how CAM fits into the organization. I have a feeling that some trips are Show-and-Go, maybe for the more "intimate" or familiar groups, which is fine if that is what they intend the trip to be. I have always assumed that trips posted through NSPN were automatically CAM trips, although some seem to reinforce the concept in their posts. My overall goal when I started this series was: 1) Get people to think about the system again; 2) See how it relates to what we are doing now and what we want to do; 3) Do we want to continue using it? I have not really thought about the conclusion of the CAM Discussion series, but it may be just that - do we want to continue using it? I might be stepping on toes with this, but at least I am getting attention to the topics with the only intent to make paddling safer for everyone. So, to bring us back around, is the problem with group disbursement merely a lack-leader problem? Maybe just a change of terminology? How about a group coordinator? Cruise Director? Master of Ceremonies? I'm tryin' here!

Not to direct this at you personally, Rick, but to all of the experienced paddlers in the group. As a newer paddler trying to constantly develope new skills, let me say that it might be helpful to have strong mentors such as yourself let some new flesh try leading sometimes. Just knowing that there is someone by my side to take control when things go wrong, it is very helpful for us young-blood to try for ourselves. I do strongly agree that groups shoud identify at least one primary and one secondary leader that will have ultimate authority over the group. This tends to happen naturally when senior members paddle with junior members, but probably wouldn't hurt to review at the beach breifing. Boy, that just keeps comming up, doesn't it? Next thread, maybe?

Thanks Al. Cathy and I are still getting used to this "weather prediction" stuff and didn't know what to make of the higher winds just off the Dog Bar and the lower winds on shore. Our thought was that the winds out of the south would produce some swells in the exposed section of the trip and would make quick storm aversion difficult if necessary. I think that we might need to rely on those that know a little more until we fully get the hang of it. Glad you guys had such a great trip.

Thank you everyone for the good additudes in this thread - keep it up peope. Also want to thank everyone for their honesty and willingness to "out" themselves. We are all among friends.... John, NSPN has put on a CAM clinic every spring, and I encourage everyone to participate, even if you have before. To breifly answer your questions: CAM model does not utilize any one person as a leader, but instead individuals take on leadership roles at various times in the paddle. Any one (or multiple) people can be leaders at any time. Beach breifings are a vital part of the CAM model, and have been quite lax on several paddles. Group formations will depend on the size of the group, but the diamond is the preferred formation. CAM lets individuals move around within the formation. I don't know of any maximum group size other than what people are comfortable. Typically, if a group can break into pods of maybe six or more, it would make sense, but there are no hard numbers. I have actually read an article from a paddler that has very specific rules for paddling - more than CAM but not so much as strict leader-lead. I have toyed with attempting to incorporate them into my paddles, but fear retrobution. Maybe for another topic? The discussion seems to be leaning towards beach breifings, which I had planned to keep as a separate topic, but let me know if it is important enough to the current conversation to keep it here. If possible, I would like to dial in more on the dynamics of paddling together on the water, and address some of the issues that have been brought up. Are there any lead paddlers that just can't stand being wing or sweep, or vise versa? I, for one, love to move around from the front to the back to each side and through the middle. I think it keeps my day more interesting and allows me little breaks while I let the group slowly creep by, and lets me put the peddal down when I want to get up to the front. Even more important to me, though, is that it allows me to attempt to interact with and get to know more people (some have questions my moniker - trust me it's accurate!). To change speeds (pun actually not intended!), how do we address the "slow paddler syndrome". This is not about those who are slower because they are trying to improve their skills with more advanced group such as Katherine has done. This is about those paddlers out there, and not just in NSPN, who seem to alwasy paddle a quarter or half knot slower than anyone else, no matter how slow you paddle. You people have been valiant to oust yourselves in this post so far, but I don't think there is anyone out there willing to admint that they do that!! I certainly don't do it, of course! The answer may again be with the beach breifing, but what about going further out into the trip organization. I rarely see anyone post in their trips what pace they expect for the day. I am not talking about a set course of 2.38k for 1.7m with and adjustment to 2.71k for 2.34m, but rather if it will be a slow pokey type of meander looking for new rock play spots, or a bee-line to a favorate surf spot. Most trip speeds and activities will be dependant upon the group that signs up, but I have noticed that many trips have intimidated me until I found out that the pace was going to be much less than I would have anticipated - Great Wass as an example. The prospect of a 20m day with currents, fog, and ocean exposure seemed pretty agressive to me. I waited almost two weeks before approacing Peter to see if he thought I might be able to do it, at which time I found out it was going to be a more leasurely exploration rather than a haul-a** to a destination. Turned out to be an awsome trip and I was glad I went, even though we could have worked on our own group dynamics at times, but I refuse to name names, so don't ask! So, is it all about the beach breifing, or are there other aspects to paddling on the water that can keep a group intact? I thank Ernie for your post regarind paddling ahead since that I suspect that the group may have had a direct or implied understanding of what you were doing since you mentioned staying within radio contact. I don't think that there is anything wrong at all with individuals or pods breaking from a group, as long as the group knows and agrees with it. Just occured to me - do we need to discuss options and suggestions for what to do when a group becomes visually separated for a breif period of time. This makes me think back to Leon & Lisa's situation, but also for any other situation like going around an island or even simpily around large vessels, docks, or bridge abutements. Even though these obstructions are small, isn't it true that there are usually hazzards associated with such items that can make it that much more important to get back together on the other side? I have my own thoughts on that, but I have already gone on, and on, and on, so I will shut up and let others jump in.

Opps - sorry.

Another aspect of the weather was that there was supposed to be wind out of the south. It should have been protected in the cove but how was it beyond the Dog Bar?

Well, here we go again!! In discussing whether or not to carry and use VHF radios, it was brought up time and time again that radios are too often used to communicate to a group member that have moved out of voice range. Since it was off topic of that thread, I have moved on to this one so that we can discuss why groups drift apart and what we can do about it. Again, these discussions are only a means of reviewing how well CAM works within the organization, and where there might be room for improvement. I ask participants to provide examples and experiences that they or others have had, and that we consider that each person has something of value to offer. In the CAM system, it is recommended that all paddlers are to stay within voice or speaking range of each other, or at least a portion of the group. This needs some adjustment for conditions, wind, group size, etc., but the principle is the same – if you can’t directly talk to each other, you are too far away. The reasoning behind this is primarily for safety. One factor is that if an individual sees or experiences an issue, you can alert the group vocally and it can be handled appropriately. A second factor is that if a group member should experience an issue and needs immediate attention, at least one or more paddlers are nearby to offer assistance. The recent argument that VHF radios should not be relied upon to communicate within a group has a couple of supporting factors. First, you are relying on a piece of electronic equipment that many posters have already identified as being prone to salt water damage, general failures and range issues. Secondly, for those who store radios in a hatch or don’t bring them at all, the radio may not be available to summon (or hear a call for) assistance. If anyone would like to debate the validity of whether or not to carry and use a VHF radio in general, please use Post #1. For this post, I am attempting to discuss the reason for, and methods of, keeping a group within voice range. Can this be accomplished all of the time? I would like to eliminate at least one scenario: Racing. I’d like to say for the purposes of this discussion that racing and training do not fall within the parameters of this CAM thread. The goal of racing is to paddle faster than anyone else and arrive at a point or destination before anyone else. The concept of CAM is to work together for a common goal, not individual goals. So, while a group training together could choose to implement CAM, it will be implemented differently than the typical NSPN outing. If there are any other scenarios that come up in this conversation that do not fit within CAM, we may need to identify and evaluate them separately. To the point, this conversation is not about groups that decide at the outset to split into pods with a plan to communicate via radio or meet at a planned time and destination. This is more about the paddlers that lag behind, the speeders that race ahead, and the wanders that drift off to the side or disappear to who knows where. Whether a group is underway or stopped for discussion, there seems to be a fair amount of unplanned separation that can jeopardize an individual or the group. The questions that I pose for all NSPN CAM paddlers are thus: Why does this happen? Is it a problem? How do we fix it?Since this topic can be much more about individuals within groups, I want to stress more than ever that we need to take care in how we approach this. Please use discretion if you decide to offer any examples. I am not looking to call out any individuals, and will be the first to state that I may be guilty of one or two infractions myself. So please consider the three questions asked above when providing your post. If you would like to participate but remain anonymous, please feel free to PM or send me an email to robertfolster at verizon dot net. I will either change the story to protect the innocent (and guilty!) or combine multiples of similar stories into one anecdote.Note: Anyone wishing to learn more about CAM and practice of these concepts on the water are encouraged to look for the CAM classroom and on-water sessions in the spring. I was there the past two years and will be again next year as they are incredible learning experiences.

The Swim and Fin event is actually posted on the Commercial Classifieds board. I know that Bob is looking for more paddlers for the event, so if the Post Masters will allow it, a cross post on the General Board would be appreciated.

I am definitely working on that one, as well as a few others. It will be interesting to see how this series plays out.

Well, Cathy and I are glad to see you guys enjoyed yourselves, even though we were hoping for vindication of our decission not to go. This is a tricky time of year where the storms are hit or miss, and you guys really got a hit! Great job, and we will join you next time.

Since I have not been paddling long enough to provide true insight into this situation, I looked at my overall life experiences and thought about how I might have approached it. I believe that, when faced with much harder decisions than you had available (calling OQ seemed an easy "no brainer"), I think (hope?) that people in general may make the hard decisions quicker with the knowledge of the difficulties they come with. I am to understand that the Coast Guard generally handles on-water issues only, and anyone on land is considered in a "safe" invironment. The option to tow for 5.5 miles may not have been your only option. Let me run through a couple and you can decide if any fit your situation: 1) Did you have a cell phone with service where you were? One option would to call the local (Bangor) police and ask for assistance. They may have been able to source either a rescue boat if the local emergency departments has one, or at least know a private individual who owns one and would be willing to make the ride out to pick up the injured individual. This option can be logistically difficult and time consuming, but it would have to be compared to the option to pack camp and make the tow back. 2) Was towing an option with the numbef of people you had? I have seen an assisted tow done with a two-kayak in-line tow (one kayak towing a second), with a third kayaker supporting the injured in their boat. That makes four boats in all, two for towing, one for support and one for the injured. Keep in mind that this requires two tow belts to be used by two strong paddlers. With the group you had, I can not imagine towing two boats by one person. 3) Was towing an option with the conditions you had? I don't know how well the assisted tow described above would have worked for mild to moderate conditions, but if you have a head wind or larger surf, you might need more people to perform the tow safely if at all. Do you think you could have handled two boats in those conditions? 4) Could the injured paddle while blind? I have experimented (safely mind you all!) with paddling with my eyes closed. This has come about when I have experienced the same symptoms described - irritated eye(s) due to sunscreen or debris. The blind paddler would be towed, but primarily for stearing. This would require constant verbal communication to make sure the blind paddler knew of any major course correction or when to stop. While a little disorienting, it might prove easier (or worse?) on the blind as far as nausea is concerned, and it would definitely be easier than a full tow. 5) Paddle for help? If no cell phone coverage and no response to a call for help on the radio, could one have left the island for main land to search for assistance. The idea would be to send as few into main land as possible in case the remaining group would have to make an emergency exidus based on worsening medical situation. After reading the post again, I don't think I would consider this with just a group of three. So, maybe none of these would be viable. I just thought that there might be some ideas or thoughts to consider and may be adaptable to your situation, should they never occur again! I think that the hardest decision anyone has to make is when to put your own life (and others) up against the situation you are dealing with. Without Old Quary, could any of you have decided that the loss of the eye might be better than the loss of life attempting a dangerous corssing? Could any of us make that decision if it were our own eye to loose? Suz, what I would like to commend you for is the fact that you chose to paddle where you knew you had assistance. As a paddling group size decreases, your safety options do as well. I think that you may have considered this and had a marvolus back up plan that worked perfectly. What makes for a successful trip is not so much were you went and what you did, but that everyone came home safe. Congrats!!

Thanks to Pru an Nancy as well (I want to make sure you are included in the kudos since you squeaked your post in just before mine). She is exactly correct that "newer" paddlers need to hear not so much about what equipment we should carry, but WHY. But even more importantly, this series of postings are also targeted at the seasoned paddlers and NSPNers. I have only been with the group for a year, and yet I see constant struggles with the adaptation of CAM within the organization. I am attempting to use this series to let members discuss how well the different aspects of CAM are working and what areas are in need of improving. The NSPN suggested equipment list includes VHF radios for trip levels 3 & 4. While most of the arguments here have been regarding inter-group communication, I am attempting to address the use of the radios as a safety device. Every trip has it's own set of parameters for any piece of equipment, whether it is for safety or not, and I am sure that there are situations where radios would not be required. I am merely attempting to ask the question of how radios fit into the CAM model, and if there is any reason not to monitor them while on the water. I think the next CAM discussion is definitely going to be about on-water communication!

As I am writing this post, others are responding and attempting to real this baby in. Thanks Rick and Ed for your ability to participate in the NSPN spirit. I was actually trying to prevent this progression, so I am going to jump in here in Leon's defence, whether he wants it or not. The situation that led to this discusstion is a very GOOD example of why we SHOULD carry and use radios. A situation came up between two very accomplished paddlers who needed to communicate over a distance beyond voice ability, and their radios (eventually) allowed them to communitcate and pull their group back together. Actually Phil, you are just stirring the pot, which does not assist the conversation at hand, but only side tracks it. Since it is a rule of CAM that paddlers paddle together and make an EFFORT for stay within voice range, I am trying to concentrate on the idea of having the radios available as a safety device. I have never paddled with you, so I don't know how you interact with a goup, however I have seen many instances with those I have paddled with where this is rule is not strictly adhered to and separation occurs. This is the very reason that I have started these "CAM Discussions" so that we can work these details out and determine what the overall "group" concensus is. I wanted to keep the conversation about on water communication in a separate thread, but so far it is not working. Therefore, let me steer the conversation this way. For those of you that store your radios, have you ever been in a situation when you needed them? What was it like to have to fish it out of the hatch and turn it on? Did it cause any issues with the delay as it did in Leon's case? I have heard several stories from people willing to share, and all of them seem to point to the benefits of having a radio on. Does ANYONE have a story of why it is a BAD idea to wear a radio? I have already planned separate discussion topics for on-water communications, beach breifings, and other topics as they come up. As I said in the beginning, I would like to keep these conversations on topic if we can as separate issues will be discussed in separate threads.