rick stoehrer Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 the question arose on the CAM thread (which i believe is an important issue the club needs to sort out but CAM and paddler development i believe are separate issues).someone posted that they were in favor of a mentoring approach to paddler development...i agree. i had suggested to the board that they tap long standing members on the shoulder and ask them to step up and commit to some trips. well, here' a need...so that's what i'm doing here. no need to wait or have the board do it, we're all friends.what i'll do is commit to 3 weekend paddles/trips this summer the only aim of which is to develop skills from L2 to L3. If we get a couple more folks to commit to the same, then we're looking at a summer full of mentoring, teaching opportunities. maybe we can hash out the what, where, when so that there isn't any overlap and this might work out for folks wanting to learn.so we'll get together, sort it out and post it to the calendars. folks won't need to worry about what they don't know or where the paddle is going - they're all going to be aimed at fostering a learning environment and getting you folks that are interested heading off in the right direction.so, there you go...i'll do at least 3. anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 the question arose on the CAM thread (which i believe is an important issue the club needs to sort out but CAM and paddler development i believe are separate issues). someone posted that they were in favor of a mentoring approach to paddler development...i agree. i had suggested to the board that they tap long standing members on the shoulder and ask them to step up and commit to some trips. well, here' a need...so that's what i'm doing here. no need to wait or have the board do it, we're all friends. what i'll do is commit to 3 weekend paddles/trips this summer the only aim of which is to develop skills from L2 to L3. If we get a couple more folks to commit to the same, then we're looking at a summer full of mentoring, teaching opportunities. maybe we can hash out the what, where, when so that there isn't any overlap and this might work out for folks wanting to learn. so we'll get together, sort it out and post it to the calendars. folks won't need to worry about what they don't know or where the paddle is going - they're all going to be aimed at fostering a learning environment and getting you folks that are interested heading off in the right direction. so, there you go...i'll do at least 3. anyone else? Good for you Rick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Allen Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I'm willing. I'll have to look at my commitments to see what that means in reality, but gotta believe I can find 3 days between May and September.Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 what i'll do is commit to 3 weekend paddles/trips this summer the only aim of which is to develop skills from L2 to L3. May I suggest you consider no more than two? My reasoning is (1) three trips is a major commitment and perhaps better if the level is less and more sustainable, (2) better to leave a need to be met so others will contribute too as not good for the club to be too dependent upon only one or a very few. While I have no business providing training, I can post a trip so folks and use the skills taught in the trips posted by those who can provide training. BTW, when folks speak of L2 and L3 skills what do you mean? The skills ones needs to be an active participant on paddles in the venues listed in the trip level ratings, the ability to paddle in the maximum conditions listed in the ratings, the specific skills listed in the ratings, the ability to get by in "normal" conditions on trips said to be L2 or L3 ( I do not recall anyone posting a L4 trip ), or all of the above? Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallen Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I am also willing to post some trips this summer, as well as actively assist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 May I suggest you consider no more than two? My reasoning is (1) three trips is a major commitment and perhaps better if the level is less and more sustainable, (2) better to leave a need to be met so others will contribute too as not good for the club to be too dependent upon only one or a very few. While I have no business providing training, I can post a trip so folks and use the skills taught in the trips posted by those who can provide training. BTW, when folks speak of L2 and L3 skills what do you mean? The skills ones needs to be an active participant on paddles in the venues listed in the trip level ratings, the ability to paddle in the maximum conditions listed in the ratings, the specific skills listed in the ratings, the ability to get by in "normal" conditions on trips said to be L2 or L3 ( I do not recall anyone posting a L4 trip ), or all of the above? Ed Lawson if you want something done...do it. or better yet, train others to do it. anyone wanna come and get some practice teaching/mentoring, feel free. i am by no means trying to hog all the volunteerism believe me...if others pipe up, we can work out a schedule and i'd be more than happy to take a back seat. just trying to move this along. club defines L2 as being held in sheltered water with MAXIMUM conditions of 10 kn wind, 1 foot chop, 1 foot of wave/chop, 1 kn current and for no greater distance than 10nm. skills include forward, reverse, sweep, wet exit with desirable experience being basic class in kayak safety and paddle strokes. so that's where we'll start and concentrate on...we ain't going to jump right in to a 10 mile paddle but we will ensure that folks that show up have some experience with those things. if we're not too careful, by the end of the summer, we'll have got folks firmly into L3 conditions and looking at L4 stuff! so far phil and lorrie and ed are the only other ones piped up...waiting boys and girls....raise your hand and volunteer...go ahead, you'll feel good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eneumeier Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 When I was new to the club I took the trip leader training, then offered, to learn to be a better follower. While I agree with the CAM model, I think that group paddling skills need to be taught to all members. It is important to have a common language - including signals for use on the water - when paddling as a group and to know one another's skills. Adam Bolonsky and I lead a number of "Level 2 to the Ocean" trips together to do what Rick is proposing here. I still have the float plans and would be willing to do it again this summer. They were 4 hour trips that included varying conditions, but close to protected waters. A bit of texture and rescue practice. A bit of navigation. Lots of fun. No more than 3 level twos to each more advanced paddler. Anyone want to join me in doing this a couple of times this summer? Liz (Still skiing.) if you want something done...do it. or better yet, train others to do it. anyone wanna come and get some practice teaching/mentoring, feel free. i am by no means trying to hog all the volunteerism believe me...if others pipe up, we can work out a schedule and i'd be more than happy to take a back seat. just trying to move this along. club defines L2 as being held in sheltered water with MAXIMUM conditions of 10 kn wind, 1 foot chop, 1 foot of wave/chop, 1 kn current and for no greater distance than 10nm. skills include forward, reverse, sweep, wet exit with desirable experience being basic class in kayak safety and paddle strokes. so that's where we'll start and concentrate on...we ain't going to jump right in to a 10 mile paddle but we will ensure that folks that show up have some experience with those things. if we're not too careful, by the end of the summer, we'll have got folks firmly into L3 conditions and looking at L4 stuff! so far phil and lorrie are the only other ones piped up...waiting boys and girls....raise your hand and volunteer...go ahead, you'll feel good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 TO RICK AND EVERYONE ELSE interested in posting trips, below is the current 2012 schedule we have for this coming year. It's fine to post more than one trip per day or per weekend. Feel free to contact me or one of the Board members if you want us to add something to the calendar or I believe you can add it yourself, I'm not really sure. It will be up to you however to post the trip on the "TRIPS" forum prior to the venue with all pertinent information such as Launch time, location, duration, level, etc. This is really exciting stuff. I think 2012 is going to be a great year for NSPN members. Way to go! Doug June Sat. 6/4 Odiorne: Bob Levine Sat. 6/4 Full Moon paddle: (Christopher? ) Sun 6/10 Ladies paddle: Katherine Ryan 6/23 Solstice Paddle 6/30 Lanes Cove: Doug Mogill July Wed. 7/4 Boston Fireworks paddle (Charles R.) Peter Brady Friday 7/6 Full Moon paddle(Christopher?) Sat 7/7 Salem Sound Bob Levine Sat. 7/14 Cape Neddick- Ogunquit: Doug Mogill Sunday 7/22 York River L2 paddle Peter Brady Sat.7/28 Boston Harbor Ernie Meunier August Fri.8/3 to Sun. 8/5 Wass Camping: Peter Brady Sat. 8/3 Full Moon paddle (Christopher?) Sat 8/11 Gerrish Is. Doug Mogill Friday 8/31 Full Moon paddle (Christopher?) September Sat. 9/15 Pavilion : Nancy Priest? Sat. 9/29 members: Members General Meeting Paddle October Sat 10/6 Newfound Lake: Doug Mogill Sat 12-13 Squam Lake: Doug & Peter 6/28 Chauncey Creek: Katherine Ryan (?) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Sat. 6/4 Odiorne: Bob Levine Sat. 6/4 Full Moon paddle: (Christopher? ) June 4th is a Monday so I assume these are on June 2. Caught my eye since there is a proposed NH AMC trip from Odirone on June 2. I intend to post a trip from York down to Gerrish/Wood I. after at least one training trip by Rick or whomever. This venue should provide a good variety of things and water to paddle amongst and in. Also a trip from Kennebunkport to Cape Porpoise and either upper Casco Bay to visit Goslings and Whaleboat or around Peaks from East End in Portland. The latter two will likely be SMSKN trips given locations with NSPN folks welcome. Just have not checked tides, but will fix dates and post within a week. Ed Lawson Feast or Famine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJ Carey Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Hi Rick,This is a great idea. I can commit to a couple of trips this summer. I'm happy to schedule independently or jump in on something schedulled by you or others. This is how I learned, and frankly continue to learn. Go out with experienced folks and try stuff you wouldn't, or believed you couldn't, in a low consequence environment.Thanks for starting the thread.Galen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lbeale Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Hi Rick,Willing to help on a couple of trips as well. Doesn't matter to me -- assist or post independently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 What a great schedule this early in the season! As soon as I know when I will be in town I will post or help out this summer. Very excited.AlCetus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 ........ below is the current 2012 schedule we have for this coming year. Doug June Sat. 6/4 Odiorne: Bob Levine Sat. 6/4 Full Moon paddle: (Christopher? ) Sun 6/10 Ladies paddle: Katherine Ryan 6/23 Solstice Paddle 6/30 Lanes Cove: Doug Mogill July Wed. 7/4 Boston Fireworks paddle (Charles R.) Peter Brady Friday 7/6 Full Moon paddle(Christopher?) Sat 7/7 Salem Sound Bob Levine Sat. 7/14 Cape Neddick- Ogunquit: Doug Mogill Sunday 7/22 York River L2 paddle Peter Brady Sat.7/28 Boston Harbor Ernie Meunier August Fri.8/3 to Sun. 8/5 Wass Camping: Peter Brady Sat. 8/3 Full Moon paddle (Christopher?) Sat 8/11 Gerrish Is. Doug Mogill Friday 8/31 Full Moon paddle (Christopher?) September Sat. 9/15 Pavilion : Nancy Priest? Sat. 9/29 members: Members General Meeting Paddle October Sat 10/6 Newfound Lake: Doug Mogill Sat 12-13 Squam Lake: Doug & Peter 6/28 Chauncey Creek: Katherine Ryan (?) 0Don't forget the Jewell camping trip in May May18-20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtmllr Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 You may be hoping for more leaders than helpers but as I'm not positioned to train (I'll try to make the CAM workshops in April just to be on the official NSPN page) I can only offer to be a wrangler, boat (un)loader, spotter, rescuer, etc. If someone plans a session and needs assistants just PM me with the date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 the question arose on the CAM thread (which i believe is an important issue the club needs to sort out but CAM and paddler development i believe are separate issues).Is it possible to combine these 2 concepts into a single trip? Given the title of this thread, I'd like opinions from others re: advisability of including/inviting "L2" paddlers for the Jewell camping weekend May 18, given a decent forecast. Historically, 3 of the previous 5 trips have been rather benign, the exceptions being (as I recall) 10-15 kt headwind around Chebeague one trip, and perilous thunderstorms one Fri am launch, another year. A Sat day paddle has not been very strenuous, typically, and some years we've taken Sat as a rest and/or explore island day. As a greenhorn years ago, I would have jumped at this invite. Certainly there are always a good number of paddlers with "experience" present, with many opportunities for teachin/mentoring less-experienced paddlers. On the other hand, things can get dicey in a hurry. What say y'all? Can of worms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Is it possible to combine these 2 concepts into a single trip? Given the title of this thread, I'd like opinions from others re: advisability of including/inviting "L2" paddlers for the Jewell camping weekend May 18, given a decent forecast. Historically, 3 of the previous 5 trips have been rather benign, the exceptions being (as I recall) 10-15 kt headwind around Chebeague one trip, and perilous thunderstorms one Fri am launch, another year. A Sat day paddle has not been very strenuous, typically, and some years we've taken Sat as a rest and/or explore island day. As a greenhorn years ago, I would have jumped at this invite. Certainly there are always a good number of paddlers with "experience" present, with many opportunities for teachin/mentoring less-experienced paddlers. On the other hand, things can get dicey in a hurry. What say y'all? Can of worms? i think based on... where you want to take folks - beyond water set as definition of L2 venue. you have the expectation of participants with inadequate skills/experiences to do this trip solo, safely - L2 has only forward, reverse, sweep, no rescues, no nav, etc. ...that you put yourself in the role of guide. guiding is different than participating in a CAM. CAM requires that you each share equally in preparation, expectations, etc.,: as an L2 though, you have no basis for that on this trip. L2 by definition can't share equally. so you then, are guiding and have an enhanced duty of care. i'm not saying no, i'm just saying that it's a different thing, isn't it? on a flat calm day with no wind and no chop that running from cousins over the top of chebeague (and you can bail on chebeague or crow) and then the short hop over cliff to jewell ain't no big thing BUT if there is wind and chop you're going to have to walk folks through a new experience and be prepared to pick up the pieces floating in the water if it proves too much. I'd be sure to run a ratio of 2:1 (accomplished paddlers - higher end L3 tow ponies with proven rescues, etc.) to L2 paddlers. on the other hand, it could be a lovely day with no worries and no consequences at all and folks are likely to enjoy it and get something out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Is it possible to combine these 2 concepts into a single trip? Absolutely. Any trip could follow the CAM concepts and have mentoring/instruction along the way. I believe the point Rick was making is there is instruction on the what and how of CAM trips and there is training to improve paddling skills. His events are, I believe, designed to provide an opportunity for members who are reluctant to participate in coastal trips (L2 paddlers) to become paddlers willing to go on such trips. My impression is the full set of CAM workshops is actually about both in that there are land workshops on the what and how of CAM trips and then water workshops in a coastal (L3) environment implementing those concepts combined with instruction/practice of skills deemed important to have an enjoyable and safe coastal journey. Given the title of this thread, I'd like opinions from others re: advisability of including/inviting "L2" paddlers for the Jewell camping weekend May 18, given a decent forecast. Ah, therein lies the rub. The CAM description on the website contains this: "These trips are available for all NSPN members that have sufficient experience required for the particular trip and are welcome to sign up." Who is to make that determination and on what basis? Personally, I think if someone wants to stretch their limits and go on a trip that will challenge them why not so long as there is some rationality to when and where they do so. How do you progress to your personal goals otherwise? So why not? As you said, conditions are usually relatively benign, except for a north wind the fetches are relatively small in terms of route to and from launch, you are seldom all that far from a shore of some type, and you are protected from the open ocean unless you elect to venture into the open coastal areas. Might be a good opportunity for folks to get in some extended seat time, learn from others, and have a great time. I rather think folks would adequately self select on this trip. After all, decent immersion gear would be prudent, the weather can change a good deal over a weekend, they will be going a bit "out there", and it is a bit far from the comfort of "home waters" for some. I wonder how many who have gone on one of your Jewell Trips were just learning at the time. They might have far better input on the question. Ed Lawson, A/K/A a provocateur P.S. Just read Rick's post. I think his points are right on the money about you just never know and everyone should understand what might be asked of them. I suppose I am more optimistic due to a lack of experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I wonder how many who have gone on one of your Jewell Trips were just learning at the time. They might have far better input on the question.I suspect that we've had no beginners or L2 paddlers in past years. Anybody want to chime in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Well, I shall gladly "chip in", since you ask. Jewell is one of those places that can be accessible under millpond conditions at times and it can change quite dramatically. Rick and I camped out there many years ago and in the morning a southeaster had risen (from apparently nowhere!) -- it was a <very> different sea on which we paddled back to Portland (actually Peak's Is.) Hussey channel is quite exposed.This is just a general word of warning and I do not mean to put anyone <off>.Sorry, Gary: you wrote "chime in". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 ...that you put yourself in the role of guide. guiding is different than participating in a CAM. CAM requires that you each share equally in preparation, expectations, etc.,: as an L2 though, you have no basis for that on this trip. L2 by definition can't share equally. so you then, are guiding and have an enhanced duty of care.Rick, I think that sums it up very nicely. Rather than recruit/encourage "L2" paddlers for the trip, I'll assume paddlers will, as Ed mentions "self select". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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