Problems with my Cowboy Re-entry.

[leong]

Except in very calm water, I find it very difficult to do a cowboy re-entry with my Epic 18X. Because it has low stability (the waterline width is only about 18” at the 4” waterline), I usually capsize before dropping into the seat. However, if I do make it that far, then getting my legs in is easy since the cockpit is 34” long. On the other hand, my QCC700X is much more stable and I can usually make it into the seat, even in lumpy water. But, then, I have a problem. The cockpit is only 30” long and I don’t have the flexibility to maneuver my legs in.

With the QCC, I’ve tried getting my legs in while sitting on the back deck; however, I always capsize sitting up that high. Any suggestions for doing a cowboy when the cockpit is too small for you? How do the ocean-cockpit dudes (dudettes) do the cowboy (cowgirl) re-entry?

PS

The water is about 75 degrees where I’m at now so I can practice any suggestions with the QCC every day. Hopefully, the Epic is hanging peacefully from its perch in my garage in Mass.

[Gcosloy]

My suggestion is to try this: When you swim up on the rear deck instead of twisting so that you're head faces the bow, twist so you're head faces the stern and drop you're legs into the water on each side. Push yourself backwards until you feel you can carefully raise each leg and drop them into the cockpit; still staying as low as possible twist your body to sit upright in the cockpit. You're butt needs to be directly over the seat before you do this final twist. Give it a try!

[leong]

My suggestion is to try this: When you swim up on the rear deck instead of twisting so that you're head faces the bow, twist so you're head faces the stern and drop you're legs into the water on each side. Push yourself backwards until you feel you can carefully raise each leg and drop them into the cockpit; still staying as low as possible twist your body to sit upright in the cockpit. You're butt needs to be directly over the seat before you do this final twist. Give it a try!

That's a good idea Gene. I'll try it soon. I'm sure many can pull it off, but perhaps not me. Because when I do the twist around in a T-rescue, the rescuer has to hold on pretty tight (to keep me from swimming again). Oh well, at least my re-entry and roll is dependable.

[EEL]

PS

The water is about 75 degrees

I was empathetic up to this point. <g>

One technique you might play with once sitting on the rear deck is to do a one armed sculling brace.

By one armed I mean one arm "coiled" around shaft and shaft behind the head. You can use the other arm/hand to pull yourself into cockpit if you have a small cockpit or just to keep upright if you can get butt in seat and just need to get legs in. By leaning on the sculling brace you do not need to balance yourself and can more easily get feet into cockpit..at least that is the theory.

Suggest you ask Rick C. directly.

Ed Lawson

Who has done this with OC, but thinks re-entry and roll less work.

[leong]

I was empathetic up to this point. <g>

One technique you might play with once sitting on the rear deck is to do a one armed sculling brace.

By one armed I mean one arm "coiled" around shaft and shaft behind the head. You can use the other arm/hand to pull yourself into cockpit if you have a small cockpit or just to keep upright if you can get butt in seat and just need to get legs in. By leaning on the sculling brace you do not need to balance yourself and can more easily get feet into cockpit..at least that is the theory.

Suggest you ask Rick C. directly.

Ed Lawson

Who has done this with OC, but thinks re-entry and roll less work.

Ed, if it makes you feel any better it was mostly rainy today.

I’ll try your sculling idea with one of my flat paddles. But, in general, a one armed sculling brace wouldn’t work for me since I almost always use a wing paddle.

[Doug]

Ed, if it makes you feel any better it was mostly rainy today.

I’ll try your sculling idea with one of my flat paddles. But, in general, a one armed sculling brace wouldn’t work for me since I almost always use a wing paddle.

Use the back side of the wing. You'll still get enough lift.

[Brian Nystrom]

Ed Lawson

Who has done this with OC, but thinks re-entry and roll less work.

This last statement is the key. Cowboy re-entries are basically a pool trick and I've never seen one done successfully on anything other than flat water. In the real world, it's largely useless.

[leong]

This last statement is the key. Cowboy re-entries are basically a pool trick and I've never seen one done successfully on anything other than flat water. In the real world, it's largely useless.

Agreed, cowboy re-entries are basically pool tricks. But it’s a pool trick that could save your life if you don’t have a working paddle float; that’s why I’d like to master it in all my boats. Consider the following list of the self-rescue techniques (did I miss any?):

1. Eskimo roll

2. Re-enter and roll

3. Cowboy re-entry

4. Paddle float used as an outrigger

5. Paddle float used on the paddle blade to aid rolling

6. Paddle float skyhook

To each his own I guess but when I capsize out there alone, here’s what I do:

Technique 1 first. If this fails then go to technique 2. If this fails and a paddle float is available then go to technique 6. Otherwise, you’re stuck with the cowboy.

I consider technique 4 as a pool trick as well (it’s difficult to do in rough conditions and, of course, requires a working paddle float). Technique 5 (the paddle float roll) is effective but technique 6 is faster and requires even less experience with rolling than technique 5 does.

In case it isn’t obvious, for technique 6 you inflate your paddle float and while holding on to it you re-enter the cockpit (probably from below) and pull yourself up by pulling on the paddle float (probably with one hand on top of the float). It’s similar to a bow rescue with the paddle float taking the place of the rescuer’s bow. Note it’s possible to do it even faster with a foam paddle float but it requires a more effective hip snap.

[EEL]

Cowboy re-entries are basically a pool trick .... In the real world, it's largely useless.

Perhaps.

Ed Lawson

[Brian Nystrom]

Perhaps.

Ed Lawson

Sure, it looks easy in the video, but try it sometime. In the video, the paddler has light chop to deal with, but not consistent waves that will cause the boat to broach and make it very difficult to work your way in without capsizing again.

Cowboy entries also require a keyhole cockpit, so if you prefer ocean cockpits like me, it's not even an option. Also, the higher the volume of the boat, the more difficult it's going to be to get onto the aft deck and remain there as you work your way up.

A question for Leon: In your list above, why would you not use #5 (paddle float assisted re-entry and roll) before #6? In my experience, it's one of the most bombproof self rescue techniques and it sets you up with an outrigger that you can hold across the cockpit with a forearm as you pump it out. Technique #6 is more difficult, more more prone to failure and leaves you sitting there with a paddle float in your hand, which is not terribly useful.

[Gcosloy]

The cowboy scramble requires a decent amount of upper body strength to mount the kayak and a not inconsiderable sense of balance. In short I cannot understand why having mastered the cowboy, the sweep roll is still problematic. True, a lot more skill and training is involved to master the roll but for many it should be a snap (no pun intended) compared to the cowboy in rough water. On another note: what frustrates while failing to roll is not the lack of skill or strength but more usually lack of oxygen. Imagine carrying a short length of stiff plastic tubing secured to your PFD, say 18 to 20" long. You capsize and you attempt to roll up but fail, perhaps two or three times. Now use the tube to breath and relax under water while you contemplate your next move. there actually is a commercial product like this with a valve that keeps the tube free of water. I think it is recommended for white water paddlers who may become trapped under fallen trees or debris and allows them to breath while waiting for rescue.

[leong]

A question for Leon: In your list above, why would you not use #5 (paddle float assisted re-entry and roll) before #6? In my experience, it's one of the most bombproof self rescue techniques and it sets you up with an outrigger that you can hold across the cockpit with a forearm as you pump it out. Technique #6 is more difficult, more more prone to failure and leaves you sitting there with a paddle float in your hand, which is not terribly useful.

Well, Brian, of course you’re right about the support provided by a paddle float covered paddle for pumping out a cockpit. Also, once you’re experienced with rolling, technique 5 might be easier than technique 6.

But here’s why I like technique 6 (the skyhook). When I was learning to roll by myself last century (B4NSPN) at Walden Pond I used to keep an inflated paddled float stuck under the front bungee. Then, after each failed roll (about 9 out of 10 times!), I used to grab the paddle float and roll back up with it (much better than a wet exit, swimming the boat to shore, pumping out and starting over again). Other than a decent hip snap, the skyhook roll takes very little skill. No need to think about which paddle blade to put the float on, which side of the overturned kayak to get in from, how to hold the paddle and which side of the kayak to reach out with the paddle float. Obviously, this is trivial for you (and me now), but perhaps not for a rank beginner. That is, I think a rank beginner would be more successful righting a kayak with the skyhook than with a paddle float covered paddle blade. The skyhook technique allows you to come partly up, linger and catch your breath while looking around before completing the roll. Additionally, if you don’t have an offside roll (and if it’s needed after a capsize) then the skyhook technique solves this problem. Nevertheless, I agree with you; technique 5 is generally better than technique 6.

[leong]

The cowboy scramble requires a decent amount of upper body strength to mount the kayak and a not inconsiderable sense of balance. In short I cannot understand why having mastered the cowboy, the sweep roll is still problematic. True, a lot more skill and training is involved to master the roll but for many it should be a snap (no pun intended) compared to the cowboy in rough water. On another note: what frustrates while failing to roll is not the lack of skill or strength but more usually lack of oxygen. Imagine carrying a short length of stiff plastic tubing secured to your PFD, say 18 to 20" long. You capsize and you attempt to roll up but fail, perhaps two or three times. Now use the tube to breath and relax under water while you contemplate your next move. there actually is a commercial product like this with a valve that keeps the tube free of water. I think it is recommended for white water paddlers who may become trapped under fallen trees or debris and allows them to breath while waiting for rescue.

The cowboy scramble is pretty intuitive and it provides a lot of feedback. It’s not necessary to know the physics of balance to climb back in (even though it requires good balance). The boat tips one way and your brain tells you to counterbalance this motion.

The Eskimo roll is problematic because the technique isn’t natural or intuitive and there is no such immediate feedback. The feedback is too late (you usually don’t know that the roll is going to fail until it’s too late to do anything about it).

It probably would be easy to teach a monkey to do a cowboy scramble; I don’t think that that’s true for the Eskimo roll. Of course, once you’ve mastered the Eskimo roll it seems pretty simple. I’m not sure, but I think that non-rolling (but experienced) kayakers would be able to scramble back in if it were a matter of life and death but wouldn’t be able to do a re-enter and roll.

[Brian Nystrom]

The cowboy scramble is pretty intuitive and it provides a lot of feedback. It’s not necessary to know the physics of balance to climb back in (even though it requires good balance). The boat tips one way and your brain tells you to counterbalance this motion.

True, but it's much easier said than done, especially for some of us.

The Eskimo roll is problematic because the technique isn’t natural or intuitive and there is no such immediate feedback. The feedback is too late (you usually don’t know that the roll is going to fail until it’s too late to do anything about it).

True, it requires technique and practice, but the paddle float assisted reenter and roll is a different animal.

It probably would be easy to teach a monkey to do a cowboy scramble;

I daresay that monkeys have better balance than most people and are far more athletic, too.

I don’t think that that’s true for the Eskimo roll.

I think your biggest challenge would be getting a monkey to stay in a capsized kayak.

Of course, once you’ve mastered the Eskimo roll it seems pretty simple. I’m not sure, but I think that non-rolling (but experienced) kayakers would be able to scramble back in if it were a matter of life and death but wouldn’t be able to do a re-enter and roll.

I don't agree, but success would also depend on the technique used. With a paddle float assist and using a side entry, it's really easy and technically it's not even a roll, as you are never submerged. You're just pulling yourself into your boat while being supported by the paddle float, then quickly righting yourself with a brace.

[bob budd]

Wow, this thread again. And at Xmas to boot. The "parlour trick" viewpoint has traditionally been limited to crotchety old men and those who haven't used it yet so I'm going to assume the detractors are the latter. I have used this at least once to get out of one of those places between the rocks where the alternative would have meant a much more involved maneuver of swimming the boat, a formal rescuse, etc. You know you might be able to roll up but you also might drag your face a rock while trying to do so as the waves come in. Aside from its actual use, it is also a way to build some confidence and sense of balance on top of the boat. As for sliding into a small cockpit, I have seen Mr. Crangle do this by scullling while straddling his boat.

[leong]

Wow, this thread again. And at Xmas to boot. The "parlour trick" viewpoint has traditionally been limited to crotchety old men and those who haven't used it yet so I'm going to assume the detractors are the latter. I have used this at least once to get out of one of those places between the rocks where the alternative would have meant a much more involved maneuver of swimming the boat, a formal rescuse, etc. You know you might be able to roll up but you also might drag your face a rock while trying to do so as the waves come in. Aside from its actual use, it is also a way to build some confidence and sense of balance on top of the boat. As for sliding into a small cockpit, I have seen Mr. Crangle do this by scullling while straddling his boat.

I bet $10,000 that y'all are right.

Mitt

[Lbeale]

Hey Leong,

Missed you and your wife at the Christmas Party but happy trails in Florida. As a dudette who has practiced the cowgirl in various conditions over many years, I always try to have my center of gravity as low as possible. What I learned over the years of doing the cowgirl: the lower my center of gravity the less tippy is my boat. Only at the last minute, right before I get my butt into the cockpit, do I raise my center of gravity - and even then as little as possible. As soon as the boat starts being tippy - lower my center.

I found this is true for my Tahe (ocean cockpit) re-entry as well.

I found this technique is also true when I re-enter my surfski -- keep it low.

Hope this information is helpful to you.

Les

[leong]

Hey Leong,

Missed you and your wife at the Christmas Party but happy trails in Florida. As a dudette who has practiced the cowgirl in various conditions over many years, I always try to have my center of gravity as low as possible. What I learned over the years of doing the cowgirl: the lower my center of gravity the less tippy is my boat. Only at the last minute, right before I get my butt into the cockpit, do I raise my center of gravity - and even then as little as possible. As soon as the boat starts being tippy - lower my center.

I found this is true for my Tahe (ocean cockpit) re-entry as well.

I found this technique is also true when I re-enter my surfski -- keep it low.

Hope this information is helpful to you.

Les

Hi Les,

Good suggestions. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I haven't missed any rolls yet so I haven't been forced to do a re-entry in the 75-degree water. But I'll have to force myself for training purposes.

How are you getting your legs into the ocean cockpit? Sitting on back deck, or do you have enough flexibility to get them in after you’re already seated in the cockpit?

Miss you too.

PS

Because of a lower CG and body shape cowgirls have the advantage here. I love your hand roll. My last successful one was last century!

[rick stoehrer]

Wow, this thread again. And at Xmas to boot. The "parlour trick" viewpoint has traditionally been limited to crotchety old men and those who haven't used it yet so I'm going to assume the detractors are the latter. I have used this at least once to get out of one of those places between the rocks where the alternative would have meant a much more involved maneuver of swimming the boat, a formal rescuse, etc. You know you might be able to roll up but you also might drag your face a rock while trying to do so as the waves come in. Aside from its actual use, it is also a way to build some confidence and sense of balance on top of the boat. As for sliding into a small cockpit, I have seen Mr. Crangle do this by scullling while straddling his boat.

crotchety? check.

old? half a check.

tried it? check.

detractor? big, big check.

anything that gets you back in your boat and out of a mess isn't a pool trick (the more comfy you are in, on, around the boat and the water, the better off you are) but it sure ain't going to be anywhere near the top end of options to get my butt back in the boat.

like the traditional paddle float, it works best on flat water with no wind but if it's flat water and there's no wind...how did you manage to fall outta the boat? different rescues for different conditions...i think this one has more limitations than most.

merry christmas, every one!

[PeterB]

I dont think the cowboy reentry is just a party trick . . I've seen a few people do a cowboy in rough conditions, including a tidal race and I was able to do one myself in a tidal race. This was with my Cetus, which has tremendous initial stability, but not some other boats. ; a cowboy is one thing where the boat does matter , i think a more stable boat is easier to cowboy into , while the classic "lively " boat does well while the occupant is in the boat and managing it , but with occupant on top of the bat, its just... tippy.

In addition to knowing 1st hand that the cowboy can work, I would say: wet exits and reentries come in all shapes and sizes; its not always out there on the high seas. , sometimes its in close quarters, or in shallow water, where some mishap occurs , and in some situations a cowboy might be preferable to a reenter and roll. . An example would be some mishap in a rock garden, where you end up ready for a rescue in some semi enclosed, shallow area; the water may not be rough, but not good for someone else to come in and get get involved and its too shallow and rocky to get yourself upside down ; So, knowing a variety of self recovery methods, including the cowboy, is a good thing, and even if the cowboy never used its generally good practice , teaches balance and comfort with scrambling around in relation to ones boat.

[EEL]

So, knowing a variety of self recovery methods, including the cowboy, is a good thing, and even if the cowboy never used its generally good practice , teaches balance and comfort with scrambling around in relation to ones boat.

All so true. Thanks to Santa I now have the Vol. 2 of Gordon Brown's series and it has some nice practice/play/messing around with boats stuff directly related to cowboy or whatever. Watching him playing about drives home what a klutz I am. Of interest is the lack of helmets in his video, but neat stuff, very neat stuff.

Ed Lawson

Who is now busy consuming Manhattans before the tanjine is done and has no sense of balance at all.

[PeterB]

All so true. Thanks to Santa I now have the Vol. 2 of Gordon Brown's series and it has some nice practice/play/messing around with boats stuff directly related to cowboy or whatever. Watching him playing about drives home what a klutz I am. Of interest is the lack of helmets in his video, but neat stuff, very neat stuff.

Ed Lawson

Who is now busy consuming Manhattans before the tanjine is done and has no sense of balance at all.

I paddled with Gordon Brown in San Francisco, where he did a fast , smooth cowboy in yet another paddling situation not yet described here; launching from a beach with serious dumping surf.

2-3 foot dumping surf may not look like much, but try launching through it; it can really put your a paddling chops to the test and mete out a big dose of humility . Mr. Brown got a running start with his boat , charged into the surf , his whole torso then draped over the cockpit, sealing it at that moment of truth when the wave breaks , and then just after the wave broke he was up into cowboy position, butt over cockpit and, floooomph, down he slid into the cockpit and was underway.

Another good reason to practice cowboys.