Trip Levels interpreted

[Gcosloy]

I would like an explanation of the use of Trip Levels for NSPN trips. As an example, do the conditions need to reach maximum levels on all counts to be deemed Level 3 or Level 4, or is any one sufficient. On the one hand a trip to the Isle of Shoals on a calm day with flat seas and little wind is considered Level 4 because of the lack of shelter for many miles yet 15K winds and 3.5' seas between Gloucester and Beverly may be labeled Level 3. Most of the shelter being less than a mile away however may require navigating dumping surf. For my part I think that if any one condition can reach the maximum that should be the threshold for describing the trip level. As an example this last Sunday out of Tuck's to White Beach 20K winds and following and quartering seas that reached 4' were encountered. Once leaving the shelter of White Beach and heading SE toward Manchester there was no real shelter for several miles unless paddlers were willing to brave the dumpers off Singing Beach. Graves was a possibility. The NW trip out into the wind probably required 4k paddling effort to make decent headway. No serious current or distance but nevertheless I would deem this trip Level 4. Am I correct in my interpretation?

[EEL]

I would like an explanation of the use of Trip Levels for NSPN trips. As an example, do the conditions need to reach maximum levels on all counts to be deemed Level 3 or Level 4, or is any one sufficient.

Gene:

I believe this has been asked and answered previously.

Ed Lawson

Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:27 AM

QUOTE (GCosloy @ Jun 27 2010, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the sake of agreement this putative trip is re-designated as a Level 4. However I can state with assurance that some of the NSPN descriptions of Level 4 will not apply. Distance will not be 20+ miles and neither will pace be 4 knots. I agree fully with the statement that planning should include the worst case. What about current? Is there any to contend with in this crossing?

It doesn't seem that you understand how the trip levels work. If ANY element of the trip is at the higher level the trip is at the higher level.....

-Jason

[rick stoehrer]

looking forward to seeing you at the CAM this sunday gene.

[EEL]

looking forward to seeing you at the CAM this sunday gene.

Rick:

What is the location for this weekend's CAM session?

Thanks.

Ed Lawson

[rick stoehrer]

Rick:

What is the location for this weekend's CAM session?

Thanks.

Ed Lawson

We haven't come to a consensus yet. We're reviewing the forecast and Scott or Rob will likely post the location later on this evening for the Sunday session.

Once that's done, each participant should prepare for a trip as they normally would - review weather, tide, location, bring appropriate gear, etc. and appropriate joie de vivre.

All will be reviewed as part of beach briefing within individual CAM pods come Sunday.

Important note - BE ON TIME!

[Gcosloy]

Gene:

I believe this has been asked and answered previously.

Ed Lawson

Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:27 AM

QUOTE (GCosloy @ Jun 27 2010, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the sake of agreement this putative trip is re-designated as a Level 4. However I can state with assurance that some of the NSPN descriptions of Level 4 will not apply. Distance will not be 20+ miles and neither will pace be 4 knots. I agree fully with the statement that planning should include the worst case. What about current? Is there any to contend with in this crossing?

It doesn't seem that you understand how the trip levels work. If ANY element of the trip is at the higher level the trip is at the higher level.....

-Jason

Its hard to reply when someone decides to respond to today's post with yesterday's answer. Aside from Jason's earlier approbation I currently do agree with last years responses above quoted! I did and still do think it appropriate to raise these questions every once in a while since there still seems to be a number of paddlers who find the correct labeling somewhat counter intuitive and tend to intuitively downgrade a proposed trip. I agree that the trip I describe should be designated Level 4 and yet because not all or even many of the conditions were present such as current, distance or pace etc. many have a tendency to lower this designation. Whats important here is not who wins an argument -that's easy-you win. More important that this method of labeling trips based upon perhaps only one worst case condition being present be used and understood by more paddlers. If I'm in a minority of one in this opinion than I apologize for wasting everyone else's time.

[rick stoehrer]

so the trip level criteria lists the MAX for that level. if ANY ELEMENT of the trip exceeds that ceiling, then the trip is bumped to the next level. how i interpret that is....

if you're going around cape anne on a dead flat day - no wind, no current and no waves...it's level 4 based on distance.

if you're going to isle of shoals in winds to 10kn, sea's to 1ft and with just a bit of current...it's a level 4 based on exposure to open ocean.

heading from greasy pole to dogbar and back on a dead flat day....it's a level 2 based on the limited distance, protected harbor and ease of conditions.

honestly it isn't hard once you get the hang of it and it may help people understand what they are contemplating. i think folks get too wrapped up in trip levels and so long as you fulfill your responsibility and research and understand every trip you go on before you go, then there are fewer surprises and expectations are set right up front.

[EEL]

so long as you fulfill your responsibility and research and understand every trip you go on before you go, then there are fewer surprises and expectations are set right up front.

Rick:

Would I be correct in assuming the workshops the BOD and you sacrificing volunteers take great effort to put on discuss how to go about fulfilling the responsibilities of both organizer and participant? And doesn't that mean the CAM workshops are not just for organizers, but for everyone? Perhaps especially for new members who may not be familiar with how trips are described, rated and organized?

Along with all that neat "skills stuff".

Ed Lawson

[rick stoehrer]

Rick:

Would I be correct in assuming the workshops the BOD and you sacrificing volunteers take great effort to put on discuss how to go about fulfilling the responsibilities of both organizer and participant? And doesn't that mean the CAM workshops are not just for organizers, but for everyone? Perhaps especially for new members who may not be familiar with how trips are described, rated and organized?

Along with all that neat "skills stuff".

Ed Lawson

YEAH.

Besides the just having fun and doing a little bit of errant skills training, the CAM workshop is supposed to be a primer on how a CAM trip operates. Since CAM means no single "leader", all participants should be familiar with the model - the original poster of the trip (or trip facilitator) and all paddlers.

So yeah, it's definitely for everyone.

[PeterB]

do the conditions need to reach maximum levels on all counts to be deemed Level 3 or Level 4, or is any one sufficient.

Gene, if any one condition reaches level four , then , for the purposes of describing the trip , it should be deemed level 4.

For my part I think that if any one condition can reach the maximum that should be the threshold for describing the trip level.

Yes, you are exactly right.

As an example this last Sunday out of Tuck's to White Beach 20K winds and following and quartering seas that reached 4' were encountered. Once leaving the shelter of White Beach and heading SE toward Manchester there was no real shelter for several miles unless paddlers were willing to brave the dumpers off Singing Beach. Graves was a possibility. The NW trip out into the wind probably required 4k paddling effort to make decent headway. No serious current or distance but nevertheless I would deem this trip Level 4. Am I correct in my interpretation?

Yes, you are exactly correct in your interpretation.

[PeterB]

Rick:

Would I be correct in assuming the workshops the BOD and you sacrificing volunteers take great effort to put on discuss how to go about fulfilling the responsibilities of both organizer and participant? And doesn't that mean the CAM workshops are not just for organizers, but for everyone? Perhaps especially for new members who may not be familiar with how trips are described, rated and organized?

Along with all that neat "skills stuff".

Ed Lawson

To clarify:

In the first CAM Trips (all day classroom) workshop a few weeks ago, we covered trip levels in some depth. i got the "vibe" that there was a general understanding of things among the group .

Yes, the CAM workshops are for all members, and the role of both participants and initiator will be covered.

And yes, trip levels, but more importantly, group assessment (i.e.. groups assessing/inventorying their resources, both material and human, and matching them with conditions and the plan for the day) will be part of the on -the-water sessions.

[Rob Hazard]

Ed, this Sunday's session will launch from Riverhead Beach, Marblehead at 0900.

[leong]

so the trip level criteria lists the MAX for that level. if ANY ELEMENT of the trip exceeds that ceiling, then the trip is bumped to the next level. how i interpret that is....

if you're going around cape anne on a dead flat day - no wind, no current and no waves...it's level 4 based on distance.

if you're going to isle of shoals in winds to 10kn, sea's to 1ft and with just a bit of current...it's a level 4 based on exposure to open ocean.

heading from greasy pole to dogbar and back on a dead flat day....it's a level 2 based on the limited distance, protected harbor and ease of conditions.

honestly it isn't hard once you get the hang of it and it may help people understand what they are contemplating. i think folks get too wrapped up in trip levels and so long as you fulfill your responsibility and research and understand every trip you go on before you go, then there are fewer surprises and expectations are set right up front.

Agreed. But if it’s just a matter of personal safety consider the following hypothetical situation:

Wind <5 knots

Waves/Chop < 2 feet

Surf = 4 feet

Current = minimal

Distance < 10 miles

Trip: Paddling trip that is parallel to the beach and just out a little past the surf zone.

Obviously, according to the union of maximum conditions this is a level 4 trip. However, would a level 3 (or perhaps a level 2) paddler be safe on this trip assuming the following: (1. Good swimmer, 2. Warm water, 3.Capable body surfer and 4. Willingness to abandon the kayak to get through the surf if the calm put-in couldn’t be reached for any reason)?

Perhaps this is an example of what Rick means in the last paragraph when he says "i think folks get too wrapped up in trip levels"?

[PeterB]

Agreed. But if it’s just a matter of personal safety consider the following hypothetical situation:

Wind <5 knots

Waves/Chop < 2 feet

Surf = 4 feet

Current = minimal

Distance < 10 miles

Trip: Paddling trip that is parallel to the beach and just out a little past the surf zone.

Obviously, according to the union of maximum conditions this is a level 4 trip. However, would a level 3 (or perhaps a level 2) paddler be safe on this trip assuming the following: (1. Good swimmer, 2. Warm water, 3.Capable body surfer and 4. Willingness to abandon the kayak to get through the surf if the calm put-in couldn’t be reached for any reason)?

Perhaps this is an example of what Rick means in the last paragraph when he says "i think folks get too wrapped up in trip levels"?

In this situation, if there were no other protected landing spots , and landing on a beach with 4 foot surf were a likely -to- unavoidable part of the plan for the day , (ie, the only place on the whole route to stop) yes, i would call it a level 4, but the point is probably moot as one would likely not choose this route (landing a L2 group would be not impossible but launching again would be unlikely to impossible ), but rather choose another similar route but with a decent landing spot. if there were other landing spots and the beach were just a bailout, i would call it a L2/L3 trip. but yes, thats all common sense and one oughtn't get totally wrapped up in trip levels ,certainly not to the degree that it precludes discussing the risks hazards, and general nature of the trip and how those match the participants abilities and expectations on that day.

[EEL]

Perhaps this is an example of what Rick means in the last paragraph when he says "i think folks get too wrapped up in trip levels"?

I believe your example points out an important aspect of trip levels. The level of the trip and the difficulty of paddling on a given trip as such can be two different things. By that I mean if there were no problems along the way, then the trip you describe could be done by nearly anyone in nearly any kayak. Would that mean it was a L2 or L3 trip and not a L4 trip? I would say, "No." Would that mean all such paddlers who did the trip have the skills and knowledge expected of a Level 4 trip participant and can consider themselves L4 paddlers? I would say, "No". Which can lead to problems if they assume so after doing a Level whatever trip on a benign day and then go on the same trip when the sea breezes kick in and they need to paddle a few miles with a rear quartering 15+Kt wind and breaking 2+ foot wind waves. Same trip, same trip level; different experience.

While a blunt instrument, subject to misuse, and fodder for much discussion/debate; I believe the NSPN trip level chart is very good when taken as a whole. It does give a decent indication of what skills/knowledge might be needed and what conditions might be encountered on a trip in a given environment.

As Peter pointed out, focus for a successful trip is making a decent SWAG on how things likely to be during the day and ascertaining what is the "inventory" of paddlers before launching and not the assignment of a trip level and saying only Level whatever paddlers (whatever that means) should participate.

Isn't the trip level thread a spring ritual too?

Ed Lawson

[rick stoehrer]

Agreed. But if it’s just a matter of personal safety consider the following hypothetical situation:

Wind <5 knots

Waves/Chop < 2 feet

Surf = 4 feet

Current = minimal

Distance < 10 miles

Trip: Paddling trip that is parallel to the beach and just out a little past the surf zone.

Obviously, according to the union of maximum conditions this is a level 4 trip. However, would a level 3 (or perhaps a level 2) paddler be safe on this trip assuming the following: (1. Good swimmer, 2. Warm water, 3.Capable body surfer and 4. Willingness to abandon the kayak to get through the surf if the calm put-in couldn’t be reached for any reason)?

Perhaps this is an example of what Rick means in the last paragraph when he says "i think folks get too wrapped up in trip levels"?

"safe" is a word actuaries might use. i might consider something a good or bad idea based on conditions; that we can, probably can or can't do something. i might try to steer away from words like "safe"

if the conditions you've outlined exist and you are aware of them prior to launch (and i can only assume you're launching from an area with no surf and heading to location with surf) then i would say that were a bad idea. mr. sylvester and i put someone in conditions that were over their head and while we all had fun and it was a very memorable experience, it wasn't a very good idea. in retrospect, i would try not to do something like that again.

i don't know that i would have a plan that at the outset called for someone to abandon their boat and swim in but maybe i'm being limited in my thinking. i think that if it comes down to it and you need to get to shore and that's the only option you've got...then in you go but think that if it comes down to getting out of your boat, that the "plan" has gone wonky somehow.

[...]

Hey Gene,

It was a great , Tuck's to White Beach, trip and L4 as well? Wow! For a beginner with only a BCU 1* - Pool award, I feel like I accomplished something. Clearly, it was not my skills but the combined skills of the group working together that made it a safe and fun trip. Boy, it is going to be a great summer!!!! Is there an L5 trip planned??

Warren

[Pintail]

Gene, I have to say that I have always found the NSPN trip levels easy to follow and understand: they are quite explicit, after all. What <may> occur, very occasionally, is that a trip underway may turn into something else if conditions alter dramatically whilst the party is out on the water.

I must say this in public once more (even though our President might disagree with me): I do not like the posting of some trips at <halves> (eg: "...this trip will be a level 3.5" or similar) And why not? Because our trip level guidance <is> well-defined. How on earth can a new-ish paddler be expected to differentiate between <half-values> when they might already be "at sea" (yes, intended!) with the entire system and our modus operandi?

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have never had any problem with our system: it has worked for many years! Tootle-OO, pip pip!

(PS: Warren, careful what you wish for -- BCU 1*? Level 5 trip might be just a little bit <too> exciting!)

[subaruguru]

Isn't the trip level thread a spring ritual too?

Yup! And since it's an integral part of the CAM workshop agenda, timely springtime repetition to foster understanding is a good idea, especially for novices (e.g., we picked up another dozen memberships in April).

Scott C said it best at the workshop when he indicated that rather than analytically parsing the Levels 3 and 4 into subgroups the point is to offer AS MUCH INFORMATION as practicable to inform a trip.

The result is that more trips will be described as Level 4, with attached raison d'etre: distance, or open exposure, chop above 2', winds above 15kn, etc.

The point is that more info is better, so that paddlers can safely choose when to advance their skills safely, NOT to prevent paddlers from attending "upscaled" trips.

So reading the conditions "between the levels" (for lack of better nomenclature, Scott!) for each trip becomes more important when deciding whether to attend the many Level 4 trips we will paddle.

[...]

It might be beneficial to our membership if I share how I have used the NSPN “Trip Level Ratings” Guide Sheet as well as the “What to Bring” Guide Sheet. As a fellow kayaker who is beginning his first season, I have used the documents repeatedly to guide me in how I structure my instruction program which began in April. Also, the “What to Bring” Guide helped me assemble the gear/clothing I would need.

Although I understand the differences between levels, I always understood that any L3 trip on the ocean can become an L4 before you finish so my core competencies must be geared toward a L4 skill set. Training in April with John Carmody off Southport in “textured” waters helped to prepared me for my first NSPN trip.

I did want to share a couple "lessons learned" that I did not fully understand when reading the guide sheets that I learned on the trip. We all know that paddling in cold water adds an additional level of risk. When you combine that risk with a L4 level trip, you begin to understand the value of preparing yourself for a safe emergency bail out. With that goal in mind a helmet becomes a necessity and an understanding, prior to launch, of the emergency bail out locations becomes very useful. As a result, I have set for myself a goal of always wearing or having near at hand a helmet. Also, since I want to be a potential asset to any paddling team, I will plan to carry a nautical chart and during the beach briefing understand the location of any and all emergency bail outs.

Warren