Re-enter and roll w spray skirt

[rylevine]

At a pool session last night, my good friend Rene and I were commiserating on how difficult self-rescue is in conditions if your roll has failed - and cowboy does not work for you - and you are alone. Re-enter and roll leaves you with a boat full of water, more water coming in from the waves, and the need for an exhausting pump out. Unless you are lucky (or very good at multi-tasking and balancing), there is a good chance for another roll-over even with the paddle float. We decided that a foot and/or electrical pump was an option. Then Rene demonstrated the re-enter and roll with placing the spray skirt on before rolling up. The idea is that there would be less water in the boat, and an intact spray skirt. It may give you more time to organize the pump-out by releasing a small section of the skirt to slip in the pump. I tried it a few times. While you do not need the lung capacity of a pearl diver, it does take some time and finger dexterity (not sure about this with gloves and cold water). Also, my paddle floated away in the pool while I was trying to secure the skirt so a tether is necessary. However, it did seem to work. The situation on the roll up is better, if not ideal since there is still water in the boat to be pumped out.

Bob

[brambor]

I place the paddle under my armpit when doing this but I do agree that it would be a good idea to tether the paddle and also to wear a tow rig belt with the carabiner attached to the boat. These could be had in a day hatch. In case of a return in the worsening afternoon weather one can prevent losing the boat or the paddle. These are contemplated for solo trips but wouldn' t hurt in general...

[Brian Nystrom]

I beg to differ. In a situation where self-rescue may be difficult due to rough water, the LAST thing you want to do is to add tethers and ropes to the mix. The likelihood of entanglement is far too high and without assistance, becoming entangled could be disastrous.

[PeterB]

I beg to differ. In a situation where self-rescue may be difficult due to rough water, the LAST thing you want to do is to add tethers and ropes to the mix. The likelihood of entanglement is far too high and without assistance, becoming entangled could be disastrous.

I agree. managing the paddle without a tether in a re enter and roll should be pretty easy to get down, easier than with rescues, i think. As Rene says, paddle under the armpits a good thing.

Practising re enter and rolls with attached spray skirt is fine: I;ve done so, but in ,my experience theres still lot of water in the cockpit to be pumped out, so its not worth the extra time and effort. That extra, say, five or more seconds underwater to attach the skirt can be stressful and fatiguing: better to conserve that energy since youll need to pump out anyway. Certainly no harm practising in a pool: I just wouldnt plan to count on it in a "combat" sitation.

[Gcosloy]

I use a short paddle leash no more than 12 inches. It goes from my wrist to the paddle. Its thin bungee cord and if you stretch it hard will pop off the paddle. Campmor used to carry it and Joel at NESC still has them. I forget the name. I have never entangled myself with this leash and it doesn't interfere with the roll either. I've been dumped in some pretty strong surf and it's never popped. Yet when I need to remove it from my wrist which I do attempting the re-enter and roll its easy to do so. I fully appreciate and understand the issue of entanglement (when I see leashes tied to the deck of 3' or more of length I cringe) but with a short wrist to paddle leash its nigh on impossible to get into that kind of trouble.

[rylevine]

I agree. managing the paddle without a tether in a re enter and roll should be pretty easy to get down, easier than with rescues, i think. As Rene says, paddle under the armpits a good thing.

I don't use a tether for the usual reenter and roll. In that case I grip both the paddle and combing with the same hand while climbing in. It has worked fine. However, you really need both hands involved to attach the spray skirt. I didn't try using the armpit to hold the paddle while placing the skirt - next time. I did find less water in the boat with the spray skirt attached, but I think you would still have to pump out. - Bob

[rylevine]

Practising re enter and rolls with attached spray skirt is fine: I;ve done so, but in ,my experience theres still lot of water in the cockpit to be pumped out, so its not worth the extra time and effort. That extra, say, five or more seconds underwater to attach the skirt can be stressful and fatiguing: better to conserve that energy since youll need to pump out anyway. Certainly no harm practising in a pool: I just wouldnt plan to count on it in a "combat" sitation.

I think it all depends on the conditions. Nothing is more stressful than getting tossed again, and that is likely to happen in a open water-filled boat with more water pouring in. You have a better chance to stabilize a sealed cockpit with less water inside. However, if you judge that you can handle the chop, then the fastest roll-up would be better.

[brambor]

Good conversation. I like to question things :-)

I will defer to those wih more experience than me so what Brian and Peter way is good .

I have experience in surfing sit on top where if I get dumped and I tumble in the turbulent water the boat pretty much flies away from me. If I don't have the paddle tethered to the boat and if i don't hold on to the paddle... the boat is gone.

I am thinking about conditions that could be treacherous, conditions that I have personally not experienced with a seakayak yet, and if alone, I thought it to be a good thinking about the tether. What might hage contributed to the idea...I just finished reading Chris Duff's book on circumnavigating Ireland where he also clipped himself to the boat in fear of not losing it.

[jdkilroy]

So, in real life conditions... had to do this off the west coast of Nootka island after getting stripped from my boat. If you are in conditions that result in your getting dumped in the first place; the likelihood is, you are going to do what gets you in the boat and back upright ASAP. Bravo for those that can manage the spray skirt placement after emptying their boats before rolling up. I am of the school that once I roll up, I fill the cockpit with water to minimize free surface effect and sort it out from there. In that situation, it meant paddling to shore with a completely full cockpit which resulted in a reasonably stable boat. I elected to exit the boat before landing (in surf) so as to minimise the potential damage to the boat but the paddle to shore(from more than a mile off) with a flooded cockpit was uneventful. (This was a fully loaded boat)

Developing these skills in a pool is encouraged but don't hesitate to try them out in the conditions that they are likely to be needed to see if they are relevant in "real life." Personally; never used a tether... just never let go of that paddle.

Understand that the free surface effect only comes into play when the cockpit is partially flooded. (Anything in between completely empty or completely flooded.)

Best, Jon

[rylevine]

Understand that the free surface effect only comes into play when the cockpit is partially flooded. (Anything in between completely empty or completely flooded.)

Hi Jon,

OK, now this is interesting to try. I've actually never heard of flooding the cockpit for more stability. However, have definitely felt the free surface effect in practice in choppy conditions - and the boat is much less stable - but it never occurred to me to just add water!

As for the tether, I have a short contact tow rope with a strap for tethering the paddle in rescues. Like Gene, I don't really see being entangled with a short (<10in) tether. I haven't used it for assisted rescues in conditions because I'm uneasy with being rolled without the paddle in my hands. However, if already out of the boat, I might use it to hold the paddle while putting on a spray skirt and then retrieve it. On the other hand, there is the available armpit....Need to practice all the options.

Bob

[leong]

Understand that the free surface effect only comes into play when the cockpit is partially flooded. (Anything in between completely empty or completely flooded.)

Hi Jon,

OK, now this is interesting to try. I've actually never heard of flooding the cockpit for more stability. However, have definitely felt the free surface effect in practice in choppy conditions - and the boat is much less stable - but it never occurred to me to just add water!

As for the tether, I have a short contact tow rope with a strap for tethering the paddle in rescues. Like Gene, I don't really see being entangled with a short (<10in) tether. I haven't used it for assisted rescues in conditions because I'm uneasy with being rolled without the paddle in my hands. However, if already out of the boat, I might use it to hold the paddle while putting on a spray skirt and then retrieve it. On the other hand, there is the available armpit....Need to practice all the options.

Bob

The question of whether to tether or not to tether is important enough to start a new topic, so here goes (see next topic).

[flipe8]

This is a great topic. I've never tried re-attaching my skirt before rolling up, but I'll throw it into my bag of things to work on. For what it's worth, I've experienced a significant difference in the amount of water I take on when performing a re-entry roll when starting being totally upside-down vs. boat being partially overturned. Can I assume you guys have come to the same conclusion?

[rylevine]

This is a great topic. I've never tried re-attaching my skirt before rolling up, but I'll throw it into my bag of things to work on. For what it's worth, I've experienced a significant difference in the amount of water I take on when performing a re-entry roll when starting being totally upside-down vs. boat being partially overturned. Can I assume you guys have come to the same conclusion?

I've always started my re-entry and roll from the boat completely upside down. I'll try different techniques in the next pool session.

- Bob

[brambor]

Interesting nuance. When I do the 'reenter' part I pretty much don't have any control whether the boat is partially upside down or completely. I suppose it is partially upside down during the first part of the reenter.

Basically -

1. capsize and get out of the boat

2. keep one leg in the cockpit and prepare for the reentry (tuck your paddle under your armpit (the outer side)

3. stick the second leg into the cockpit, take the last good breath of fresh air get your body under the water (at this step the cockpit might

tilt to the outside and be 'partially' under water.

4. hold with both hands to the coaming and cram your butt into the cockpit

5. get your sprayskirt and start working it from the back to front.

6. roll up and feast your eyes on the air bulge under your sprayskirt.

p.s. If you trying to reenter head first you're doing it all wrong!

p.s.#2 - if the water is freezing then try not to get cold water on your face.

I've always started my re-entry and roll from the boat completely upside down. I'll try different techniques in the next pool session.

- Bob

[Gcosloy]

Rene,

I have one variation which is to stick my head up into the airspace left in the cockpit facing the stern. Holding on to the combing on both sides and breathing and waiting until completely relaxed, I then hold my breath and monkey flip into the seat by pushing my body forcefully under the boat and rotating my legs over my head and into the boat. This works well with large keyhole cockpits.

[JohnHuth]

Let's see... the reentry and roll is the last on the list of stuff I try when the waves kick up and I'm practicing stuff.

I tilt the cockpit slightly up, and get my legs in and then rotate back down. I like to hook the back of my sprayskirt on the back coaming when I'm upside-down, because I find it the most difficult thing to do when I'm pitching around in the waves when right-side-up.

Then when up, I lean on the paddle to brace and pump like crazy.

I'm not sure why the partially flooded cockpit is more stable. The water sloshes around. Normally you get stability when the center of buoyancy shifts, but when the cockpit's flooded you get less shifting of the center-of-buoyancy. Also, the center-of-gravity shifts less under a rolling motion, so I'd assume you'd lose stability, not gain it, when the cockpit's partially flooded.

Let me try to draw a diagram to explain what I'm talking about. My own experience is that the kayak *feels* less stable when it's partly flooded - less righting moment.

[Pintail]

Somehow, I still do not "get" this whole concept: having succeeded in achieving this re-entry and roll, you still have to pop your sprayskirt to pump out, don't you? I'm mildly puzzled...

[brambor]

The thinking is that if you roll up you have more water that needs to be pumped out than if you attach your skirt under water. Either way, you still have to attach the spray skirt before you start pumping. Otherwise the incoming waves are going to fill the cockpit back up. The choice therefore is one of the two:

1. Reenter

2. Roll up

3. Attach spray skirt

4. open up a piece of the sprayskirt, insert hand pump and pump out.

or

1. Reenter

2. Attach sprayskirt

3. Roll Up

4. open up a piece of the sprayskirt, insert hand pump and pump out.

I think it would be great to have an electric pump in addition to your hand pump. In this case you would:

1. Reenter

2. Attach sprayskirt

3. Roll Up

4. Paddle and watch the pump take care of the water. If the pump fails then:

5. open up a piece of the sprayskirt, insert hand pump and pump out.

Somehow, I still do not "get" this whole concept: having succeeded in achieving this re-entry and roll, you still have to pop your sprayskirt to pump out, don't you? I'm mildly puzzled...

[brambor]

Just thinking out loud here:

In really rough conditions it might be actually easier to attach the spray skirt under water than after you roll up.

The thinking is that if you roll up you have more water that needs to be pumped out than if you attach your skirt under water. Either way, you still have to attach the spray skirt before you start pumping. Otherwise the incoming waves are going to fill the cockpit back up. The choice therefore is one of the two:

1. Reenter

2. Roll up

3. Attach spray skirt

4. open up a piece of the sprayskirt, insert hand pump and pump out.

or

1. Reenter

2. Attach sprayskirt

3. Roll Up

4. open up a piece of the sprayskirt, insert hand pump and pump out.

I think it would be great to have an electric pump in addition to your hand pump. In this case you would:

1. Reenter

2. Attach sprayskirt

3. Roll Up

4. Paddle and watch the pump take care of the water. If the pump fails then:

5. open up a piece of the sprayskirt, insert hand pump and pump out.

[JohnHuth]

I think what he's saying is that you get less water in the cockpit if you have the skirt on when you roll-up. But, yes, then you have to create an opening for the pump. You don't need a huge opening for the pump, so the skirt can still shield you from waves rolling over.

For me, the trickiest part is getting the back of the skirt on the coaming, so I do this under water and then roll up. Getting the front is much easier. It may have to do with cockpit design - just my own idiosyncratic way of doing things.

[brambor]

The skirt type is also a factor. My trusty, patched up Seals Surf skirt goes on easy while another with the more 'modern' bungee reinforced rim would be next to impossible to attach under water.

In the winter, however, the amount of time one can dipsydoodle under water, is reduced. In my mind, this is another reason to think about an electric pump.

The new issue of Sea Kayaker just arrived in my mailbox yesterday and it has an article on testing and installing an electric pump. While I was put off by the cost of the pump tested and the location of the bail hole, it was a good article to put me back on track in wanting to give electric pumps a try. I think the best setup I have seen so far was on this web site

I think what he's saying is that you get less water in the cockpit if you have the skirt on when you roll-up. But, yes, then you have to create an opening for the pump. You don't need a huge opening for the pump, so the skirt can still shield you from waves rolling over.

For me, the trickiest part is getting the back of the skirt on the coaming, so I do this under water and then roll up. Getting the front is much easier. It may have to do with cockpit design - just my own idiosyncratic way of doing things.

[Pintail]

Rene: consider a <portable> electric pump and then you will not need to make any holes in your boat -- and, furthermore, the pump is transferable between boats, if you have more than one...

Alternatively, why not consider a foot-operated one?

[leong]

Rene: consider a <portable> electric pump and then you will not need to make any holes in your boat -- and, furthermore, the pump is transferable between boats, if you have more than one...

Alternatively, why not consider a foot-operated one?

You might want to check with Kevin Beckwith ... he has a portable electric that did a good job emptying my boat after a re-entry.

[tyson]

I think it would be great to have an electric pump in addition to your hand pump. In this case you would:

[...]

4. Paddle and watch the pump take care of the water. If the pump fails then:

5. open up a piece of the sprayskirt, insert hand pump and pump out.

I'd _MUCH_ rather have a nice foot pump than depend on electric gear that has been submerged in salt water and depends on maintaining a battery. ...a battery that can run dead on a long trip. Sadly, I've yet to find a foot pump setup that seems practical and available.

Ty

[brambor]

That's why you have a backup hand pump on deck. From other reports I see, a foot operated pump is awkward in rough conditions.

I do like the idea of portable electric pump stashed behind the seat and pulling out a hose in between your sprayskirt...

I'd _MUCH_ rather have a nice foot pump than depend on electric gear that has been submerged in salt water and depends on maintaining a battery. ...a battery that can run dead on a long trip. Sadly, I've yet to find a foot pump setup that seems practical and available.

Ty