Isle of Shoals Sept 16

[...]

Ed,

Great video! I did happen to notice the yellow helmet. Do you think he was just wearing it for the camera?

Warren

[subaruguru]

Did you or Shari have a knife?

ERN: Yes. I did.

[jeffcasey]

Wow! What a ridiculous thread and discussion, I'm new here... If you don't have a combat roll you simply don't paddle to Isle of Schoals, especially if water is rough. It's not like friendly chit-chat rolling session at Walden Pond. Sorry guys...

Hi Duke - welcome to the snake pit.

How about it, IOS paddlers. Did you make combat roll capability a requirement for the trip? Why or why not?

(as for myself, although I am not happy with my poor roll, I won't let it stop me from paddling, it just forces me to pay more attention to "what if"s involved in self-rescue.)

[rylevine]

Hi Alec,

Did someone mention pumping out the boat after the swimmer got in? How was that possible in the conditions?

It may have been possible with some fast pumping by the swimmer (and adjacent rafter). This is a suggested procedure for cold water, when it is critical to get the swimmer out of the water quickly.

Do you think it would have helped for the free boats to have attempted a tow to keep you end on to the sea?

A nightmare of entangling lines - impossible. Leon has posted on this thread about when to consider towing.

Please write up your thoughts on pod size. Some comments here seem to suggest that everyone should keep together more or less regardless. But that cannot always be true - what if there had been 14 of you, or 28..?! If the group has all reasonably strong paddlers there must be some rough number which is the optimium for safety and efficiency. These things shouldn't be prescriptive but your perspective would be helpful.

This is a subject where opinions differ and conditions play a big role - but people have suggested that it is difficult to count beyond three or four. Sub-pods are an option that we eventually settled on for various reasons.

Bob

[subaruguru]

I'm puzzled as to why this trip report was posted here in the “Trip Reports “ forum in the first place.

As far as I can see, this was a private trip, initiated by a strong, veteran paddler who has his own way of doing things, and who doesn’ t subscribe to much of what CAM and NSPN group paddling/club trips are currently all about. Otherwise he would have posted this as an NSPN trip in the “Trips†forum .

ERN: Peter, I'm not sure that's true.

As it was, he contacted individuals with whom he was comfortable, planned a trip, and events ran their course. I dont see any evidendce of CAM or NSPN paddling principles in this trip , and dont see why it would apply.

ERN, Peter, I believe most of the participants are NSPN members. Leon simply didn't want to open the trip to anyone, given the nature of the paddle.

I don't see why you're taking such a restrictive and severe position here, unless you need to do so as current Pres?

Now, one trip member , evidently without consulting the other trip members,

ERN: not quite true...some minor consultation occurred.

has posted this on the NSPN trips forum, where CAM, NSPN group paddling, trip levels and such are being invoked when there's no evidence that those for whom such advice is intended or who might benefit from it, are receptive to it .

ERN: that's patently untrue. Haven't you read the responses from those thankful for our "bravery" in discussing this?

Consequently, paddlers on this trip would only naturally feel embattled, see this thread as “bloody water where the sharks are feedingâ€, and assume a :â€I was there. You weren’t†posture.

ERN: Raw feelings of defensiveness do not have as their root the posting of this trip report, but from the responses received AND the trauma of the event itself. You beautifully described for me the need to debrief on Tuesday, so I know we agree here.

In turn, club members contributing their well intended experience and advice to this thread may only come across as monday morning quarterbacks , and

the CAM program may be seen as deficient as it has not spread to those who clearly are not open to it in the first place.

ERN: I interpret the dynamics differently, and can only see that CAM practices and the culture that embraces them can only improve and mature BECAUSE of discussions as these, with the hope that more intensive CAM workshops ensue as soon as practicable. Didn't I so argue such a connection on Tuesday? I didn't write this trip report to be coy or cute. I simply trusted that we mature adults could bare showing ourselves in the bright light of day, mistakes and all, for the benefit of all.

In CAM workshops earlier this year, virtually every issue which arose on this trip was covered by very good presenters. : how to deal with a slow paddler, group paddling, how to deal with a paddler not up to a trip, trip levels, how to manage incdents, trip planning etc. As far far as I can see, this culture" has been applied on many subsequent trips to good effect. For those paddling outside of this "culture" , i dont really think theres much to share here .

ERN: I fear you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Trip-members aren't Leon acolytes.

For my part, If I were signed on to this trip I would have presumed that this was not a CAM/ NSPN trip, this was Leon’s trip and tried to do things Leon’s way, and if I were uncomfortable with this I would have elected not to go. If things had gone awry I would not try to attribute it all to CAM, or NSPN or anything else but I would try to to debrief within my group as fully as possible.

ERN: I see. Part of the misunderstanding is therefore mine indeed as I ASSUME that all trips I go on are CAM trips, whether called privately or not. Leon has NEVER, to my knowledge, dictated group or trip management protocol that are at odds with our CAM principles, so characterizing his trip as somehow cleaved from the CAM fold is really a stretch, and maybe divisive?

However , since I personally would have been uncomfortable doing so , I would have elected not to go on this trip. I would not have felt confident of my own abilities to contribute to this particular group on this particular day. Could I keep my head on a swivel for such long crossings in big seas? . I probably could manage myself, but would I be prepared to manage a long tow, or a complicated incident, or doing my part to keeping a group together, or otherwise turning my full attention to others in need? Do I know enough about weather to be assured that conditions with which I would be comfortable would prevail? To these questions I would answer “no.â€

To be fair, Ernie told me that the trip participants had debriefed together , and that’s a good thing. I would hope that you continue to do so amongst yourselves As it is, I don’t think that this forum will help much.

Ernie you need to think about what is an NSPN trip and what isn’t.

ERN: I guess so. My entire paddling orientation is based upon being an NSPN club member. Since we're now embedding a leaderless CAM culture in nspn I fully come to expect that ALL trips are managed and experienced accordingly, whether posted on the board or not. I guess I'm naive?

It was my understanding that folks lead private trips with selected participants is simply because they want to control the size and nature of the group, and perhaps paddle only with their friends, and NOT TO PADDLE IN SOME FASHION CONTRARY TO CAM PROTOCOL.

Am I missing something here?

The only time I assume NON-CAM principals is when I'm on a commercial or instructional trip hosted by an organization that assumes liability and has complete control.

E.G. To announce that a group of paddlers from Montreal are gathering at Popham, and that NSPN is welcome to join them, and ask that the web moderator move to the “trips†section, is unwise in the extreme,.

ERN: I agree, but this is a complete red herring that doesn't support your important point. I just didn't know where such a notice should be posted, as it is non-commercial.

I'm annoyed that I now sound defensive, but don't we all recall trip reports where NO trip was ever previously posted? Are trip reports only for those trips previously posted and open to all participants? Without checking, I would assume that maybe 1/2 the reports are for "private" trips that members (or even non-members) wish to share.

Does it then follow that you're suggesting that only previously posted trips open to all NSPN members are allowed to have trip reports published? I doubt that's your intent....

My ultimate aim is to have all nspn members adopt our CAM practices as quickly and thoroughly as practicable, and cannot see how cleaving "private" trips from "official" nspn ones serves to advance this inherently educational and empowering process.

I also that attending a workshop and its practica once is woefully inadequate to ensure thorough infusion of the instruction in real life practice. Hence the publication of this trip report to further instill in the membership the need for further CAM sessions next year.

I just don't see how separating "private" trips from "nspn" ones helps this process, unless we at nspn somehow need to shield the organization sanctimoniously from iconoclasts?

I hope my intent in posting this won't prove to backfire to less that a net positive gain. I did the best I could....

[tyson]

I suspect that the number of folks who can safely count on their roll as a primary self-rescue skill in all conditions is embarrasingly low.

Why is this true? It is my understanding that many (most?) white water groups won't let you play with them unless you have a reliable roll. Rolling is a primary skill for them.

Ty

[alec]

...

On the other point about group size, when the water gets rough as described on this adventure, I have found it very hard to keep track of folks only twenty or thirty feet away as they just disappear on you.

I like paddling in groups of no more than 6. I can tolerate maybe 12 on calm water if they all try to stay within comfortable shouting distance. My personal view is if you cannot paddle and chat, you are too far apart.

...

Ed Lawson

My preference too. In these conditions perhaps it is hard to fault the splitting of the group into two pods.

The other thing I am learning from this is to get some more VHF practice in unpleasant conditions. This is something we can do in the winter too.

[rylevine]

Hi Duke - welcome to the snake pit.

How about it, IOS paddlers. Did you make combat roll capability a requirement for the trip? Why or why not?

(as for myself, although I am not happy with my poor roll, I won't let it stop me from paddling, it just forces me to pay more attention to "what if"s involved in self-rescue.)

We did not make a combat roll a requirement for the trip. I dont think it was necessary. The IOS paddlers were all experienced (at least L3) with good boat control, bracing and rescue skills. The failures were of pod communication and organization which are still being sorted out. In my opinion those failures are the kind that endanger people paddling in groups - not individual rolling ability. Also, as mentioned above, is there such a thing as a bombproof roll?

Bob

[Duke]

>Also, as mentioned above, is there such a thing as a bombproof roll?

Yes, there's such a thing as a bombproof roll. You either have it, or not.... sorry...

Otherwise, you have no business paddling in 8-10 rollers 3-4 miles offshore

Cheers

[alec]

(removed duplicate)

[brambor]

A question to the trip participants:

If the same trip under similar weather forecast presented itself a year from now

Would you go?

[tyson]

>Also, as mentioned above, is there such a thing as a bombproof roll?

Yes, there's such a thing as a bombproof roll. You either have it, or not.... sorry...

Otherwise, you have no business paddling in 8-10 rollers 3-4 miles offshore

While I support having a reliable roll, I'd have a hard time supporting painting it in black and white.

They didn't claim 8-10. 8 is the largest number I've seen in this thread.

Cheers!

Ty

[EEL]

A nightmare of entangling lines - impossible. Leon has posted on this thread about when to consider towing.

I suggest you avail yourself of any opportunity to play with tow ropes for towing, extracting boats, or holding boats on station in bumpy water with those who provide CAM training. You may feel differently about it thereafter.

Ed Lawson

[Gcosloy]

A question to the trip participants:

If the same trip under similar weather forecast presented itself a year from now

Would you go?

If I'm still alive and well I would go with the same crowd. After all the trip will have had the benefit of this years post mortem. Perhaps we'll do better next time!

[EEL]

The other thing I am learning from this is to get some more VHF practice in unpleasant conditions

I know some are fans of using a VHF for communication on a paddle and to each his own. My personal feeling is if you need to use a VHF for group communication something is already terribly wrong.

That said, I have seen them used on a group paddle to good effect. I was on a paddle with a group of mixed abilities to Seguin light once. About 12 paddlers. It had been blowing around 15kts from the south for a day. So the waves were getting large enough that at times you would take around two or three strokes on them before you hit the crest whcih would at times be a bit frothy. The waters between Popham and Seguin are not know for their tranquility. It became apparent on the leg to Sequin there was a strong group and a not so strong group. Return into a ebbing tide and more sea build time suggested things were going to be rougher upon the return. So a faster group left over ten minuted ahead of the slower group which contained two of the best paddlers. On the return leg a designated paddler in the fast group periodically relayed info to a designated person in the slow group as to conditions, etc. At least in my group everyone stayed withing 20 feet max and had fun discussing the state of the universe or something similar on the return leg. Once we got to calmer waters the paddlers in the faster group played about until the slower group arrived at which time we all paddled together to the put-in. Radios were a big help that day and used effectively.

Ed Lawson

[Gcosloy]

I’m not happy being singled out as the excuse for what went wrong by members of this board or my own fellow paddlers. When we set off from Rye that day I was well aware from reading the experiences of others that IOS could easily become a Level 4 paddle particularly in the afternoon. My GPS log shows 13.4NM and a moving average of 2.9K. Given that Leon and I were mostly lost in conversation on the way out and paddling slowly it is entirely conceivable to me that the leg back was paddled close to 3K or greater. This was with a beam sea of high waves of short periods. I’ve been in that situation before with people who get uncomfortable and do recommend going down wind which may make it easier to control the kayak and give a greater sense of forward progress. No problem and I would have gladly complied with the majority request on this but there was no clear majority. Since I was comfortable with our track and saw no good reason to tack northwards putting us way up beach from our put-in, I expressed my point of view. If the others needed the confidence of travelling faster and needed to go down wind that was understandable. I did not need a babysitter nor a tow and resent the implication that there but for the “slow paddlers presence†all would have been fine. The last time I looked I roll better than most, practice rescues more than most, and surf. I have been on any number of paddles where others refuse to stay together and cause me some worry about their safety. I’m rarely guilty of that, being the “slow paddler†that I am. I’ve know Leon and paddled with him for six years now and until this event have never known him to be shy about voicing directions on the water. If he really thought Lisa and I should have joined him on a downwind track he really wasn’t insistent or convincing. Some of this may have been due to the inability to hear each other without getting too dangerously close to each other. I did not show up for this trip; I was invited. Either Leon knew my skills and pace and was confident in my abilities given the potential for a rougher crossing or he planned for a “walk in the park†and was surprised by what ensued. I’m not faulting him or any of my fellow paddlers on that day other than to observe that four of whom split off from the group and ultimately from each other received only passing commentary from the peanut gallery while I who stayed with the larger pod the entire trip have been placed under the stronger light. If this sounds defensive, then so be it, no one else has defended my actions, so I might as well.

The NSPN Home page has this greeting: “We are a friendly bunch of paddlers…†Well, maybe not! Some of our star-encrusted members seem to relish the opportunity to pass judgment or to preach or even pooh pooh the experiences of some of us presumed lesser lights. Yes, their experience and training can be of benefit to all, but usually only by maintaining a Master/Grasshopper relationship. I thought this years CAM workshops were a giant step forward. It was good seeing our leaders on the water with us. They were impressive and human. I learned a lot from them and for that I am grateful, and maybe they too learned that we’re all not a bunch of unthinking fools even if we don’t have BCU stars after our names. Which brings up another point-why haven’t we seen these leaders on the water with us all summer long? Or is the CAM workshop sufficient noblesse oblige? Leaders in the past initiated trips that were open to all members and became learning experiences. Outside of the Solstice paddle and summer skill sessions on flat water we don’t have these opportunities anymore. NSPN has gotten the reputation among some of being an elitist organization. If so maybe it’s time to edit the Home page greeting.

[subaruguru]

[quote name='GCosloy' date='Sep 23 2010, 07:48 PM' pos My GPS log shows 13.4NM and a moving average of 2.9K. Given that Leon and I were mostly lost in conversation on the way out and paddling slowly it is entirely conceivable to me that the leg back was paddled close to 3K or greater.

....It's interesting that given the height of the seas it was very difficult for me to judge forward progress. All Bev and I knew (neither had a GPS) was that Shari and Bob were pulling away from us, further confirming that our progress seemed pretty slow. (I can now understand Lisa's reticence to turn north given that her GPS indicated steady progress along the beam.)

As Bev and I had turned a full 100 degrees to full north about 2/3 the way back, our recorded track was probably closer to

8 or even 9NM, in about what, 3 hours? I don't remember when he finished lunch. So I suppose we managed roughly 2.7-3 knots, not bad given the vertical motion. (Makes me now wonder if there's a sensitive enough GPS that can integrate 3D motion and thus calculate total movement?)

Thanks for your cogent and well-reasoned response, as usual.

I'm still oscillating between the "this is how you stretch the envelope to expand your skills" and "there's no way you should've gone" response extremes received from the club elders, although the latter seems to be the consensus, confirmed also by CAM protocol. But now I'm told it wasn't a "CAM" trip?! Oy vey.

[alec]

You make good points. I was thinking that it would have enabled the wandering pods to at least agree a bearing. However even had they been on the same course they probably couldn't do much for each other once they were out of sight. Also the hand on the radio is off the loom.

We use GPRS radios a lot hiking etc but there you don't need your hands to stay upright (at least generally!).

[rick stoehrer]

gene, regarding your post....

"The NSPN Home page has this greeting: “We are a friendly bunch of paddlers…†Well, maybe not!"

yeah, but if we were to market ourselves as sniping and holier than thou...man, we'd never get any new members! i mean come on gene, when you buy something "new and improved" do you believe that too?

"Some of our star-encrusted members seem to relish the opportunity to pass judgment or to preach or even pooh pooh the experiences of some of us presumed lesser lights. Yes, their experience and training can be of benefit to all, but usually only by maintaining a Master/Grasshopper relationship."

the only one i see in this thread that is passing judgment seems to be duke and no one knows the guy, do they? you have no idea if he has had any training with the bcu, the aca, or just time in the saddle. he could be some noob with an ip address...the internet is the great leveler.

"I thought this years CAM workshops were a giant step forward"

that's a nice thing to say. as one of the presenters, you're welcome, glad you thought so.

"It was good seeing our leaders on the water with us."

hmmn...this is where it starts to go off the track...the whole point of the ©ommon (A)dventure) (M)odel workshops was to illustrate how each person on a trip shares the adventure and the responsibility and how leadership within a group can be dynamic. the club no longer has "trip leaders" and when you say something like the above you seem to almost be saying, nope, THOSE people are leaders and drawing a distinction where there isn't one.

"They were impressive and human."

thanks...i think. in the interest of full disclosure though, you should know that all of us bcu types made a point of grinding off our horns right before you got there.

"I learned a lot from them and for that I am grateful, and maybe they too learned that we’re all not a bunch of unthinking fools even if we don’t have BCU stars after our names."

interestingly, it was mentioned repeatedly by several that the path to paddling enlightenment led through the wilderness of experience and time in the saddle. the bcu and the aca are fine organizations and they've spent a lot of time and effort coming up with some skills teaching and coaching curricula (SP?) but when it comes down to it, what they offer is structured learning experience. it's the experience and skills that are important, not how you get them.

i don't believe that anyone at anytime during the presentations or on-water classes made assertions regarding the correlation between unthinking fools and bcu stars. there is no direct correlation...i've met fools of both those flavors and plenty more.

"Which brings up another point-why haven’t we seen these leaders on the water with us all summer long? Or is the CAM workshop sufficient noblesse oblige?"

again...in CAM model, everyone on the water and in the group can be a leader and that leadership can be dynamic. so in truth, your leaders were with you all summer long. i think the fault here lies with not taking the steps that were outlined and that's no one's fault but your own. it's one thing to say, "thanks, i learned a lot" and then internalizing and acting on those lessons "learned"

if you are bashing the bcu encrusted types (and the word "encrusted" makes it sound like a bad thing) that presented the workshop, i can't speak for the rest of them but i paddled a TON this summer...being PAID by CLIENTS. for several others, paddling is a paying gig and efforts made on behalf of the club are given FREELY. you PAID NOTHING. between getting paid and not getting paid...well, that's easy, isn't it?

"Leaders in the past initiated trips that were open to all members and became learning experiences. Outside of the Solstice paddle and summer skill sessions on flat water we don’t have these opportunities anymore."

you keep referring to "leaders" like they're a different caste or something but in any event seem to demand command structure - go hire a guide/coach.

during our on water day for the cam you were in my group (on purpose), you always had something to do (on purpose) and you were always within speaking distance (on purpose)...you don't think any of that was by accident, do you? sure, it's all easy enough to do but don't think it isn't work.

if you demand directed, purposeful learning and paddling experiences then go take a class with a professional. this is a club and on a day/day basis, you aren't going to get that kind of attention.

[tyson]

if you demand directed, purposeful learning and paddling experiences then go take a class with a professional.

• All 3 CAM sessions - Time very well invested!
• 3 Star training - Excellent!
• RWS - Well worth the dents!
• Greenland Clinic - Worth every penny!
• Downeast Sea Kayaking Symposium - Wish I could have gone...

I'm headed to Maine for a surf clinic next weekend.

Though it is just self learning, training for the Blackburn Challenge has also significantly improved my paddling. ...and that was the purpose since I really can't claim to be competing in the Blackburn with so many folks like Leon so far ahead.

Cheers!

Ty

[Gcosloy]

"if you demand directed, purposeful learning and paddling experiences then go take a class with a professional. this is a club and on a day/day basis, you aren't going to get that kind of attention."

That really wasn't my point Rick, besides I can't afford it. My point was that if it really was a friendly group of paddlers we might see more opportunities to paddle with some of the more skilled members of the club, which I remember was common in the old days. My very first paddle with NSPN was a circumnavigation of Castle Neck and among others Kevin B., Scott Camlin, Ed Lawson and Jason Kates, not especially as leaders but comrades in pursuit of the same goals.

While I may have given the wrong impression by using the term "leaders" I simply meant those veterans with a higher level of skill. Other than as presenters in a specific program; these people are hardly seen paddling with us. The one or two exceptions that come to mind ironically are LeonG. and Bob Budd. I think they are both expert paddlers in their own ways with different strengths and always enjoy paddling with them. I never had occasion to pick their brains in doing so, just to observe and admire.

I fully understand your point about being a professional and the importance of remuneration for your work. I wasn't suggesting you come out on a trip with me and let me be coached for free.

Although I was disappointed after moving to Maine that Lake Gardner was not on the calender this year.

[rick stoehrer]

i was paid to teach on wednesday nights this summer and lots of other days...i simply didn't have the time given the flexibility i needed in order to be available for paid gigs to schedule my time at lake gardner. ask me about the scoop and subsequent rescue i had to do on a 400+ pounder this summer...hey, that was fun! like landing a freakin' tuna....

since that gig ended, i've had few enough days to actually get on the water and just enjoy myself without the constant vigilance button pushed all the way in...and i have to tell you, that's nice.

as for other experienced club paddlers...life intrudes sometimes. probably that's what happens and boom, summer's gone.

[leong]

I'm puzzled as to why this trip report was posted here in the “Trip Reports “ forum in the first place.

As far as I can see, this was a private trip, initiated by a strong, veteran paddler who has his own way of doing things, and who doesn’ t subscribe to much of what CAM and NSPN group paddling/club trips are currently all about. Otherwise he would have posted this as an NSPN trip in the “Trips†forum . As it was, he contacted individuals with whom he was comfortable, planned a trip, and events ran their course. I dont see any evidendce of CAM or NSPN paddling principles in this trip , and dont see why it would apply.

Now, one trip member , evidently without consulting the other trip members , has posted this on the NSPN trips forum, where CAM, NSPN group paddling, trip levels and such are being invoked when there's no evidence that those for whom such advice is intended or who might benefit from it, are receptive to it . Consequently, paddlers on this trip would only naturally feel embattled, see this thread as “bloody water where the sharks are feedingâ€, and assume a :â€I was there. You weren’t†posture.

In turn, club members contributing their well intended experience and advice to this thread may only come across as monday morning quarterbacks , and

the CAM program may be seen as deficient as it has not spread to those who clearly are not open to it in the first place.

In CAM workshops earlier this year, virtually every issue which arose on this trip was covered by very good presenters. : how to deal with a slow paddler, group paddling, how to deal with a paddler not up to a trip, trip levels, how to manage incdents, trip planning etc. As far far as I can see, this culture" has been applied on many subsequent trips to good effect. For those paddling outside of this "culture" , i dont really think theres much to share here .

For my part, If I were signed on to this trip I would have presumed that this was not a CAM/ NSPN trip, this was Leon’s trip and tried to do things Leon’s way, and if I were uncomfortable with this I would have elected not to go. If things had gone awry I would not try to attribute it all to CAM, or NSPN or anything else but I would try to to debrief within my group as fully as possible.

However , since I personally would have been uncomfortable doing so , I would have elected not to go on this trip. I would not have felt confident of my own abilities to contribute to this particular group on this particular day. Could I keep my head on a swivel for such long crossings in big seas? . I probably could manage myself, but would I be prepared to manage a long tow, or a complicated incident, or doing my part to keeping a group together, or otherwise turning my full attention to others in need? Do I know enough about weather to be assured that conditions with which I would be comfortable would prevail? To these questions I would answer “no.â€

To be fair, Ernie told me that the trip participants had debriefed together , and that’s a good thing. I would hope that you continue to do so amongst yourselves As it is, I don’t think that this forum will help much.

Ernie you need to think about what is an NSPN trip and what isn’t.

E.G. To announce that a group of paddlers from Montreal are gathering at Popham, and that NSPN is welcome to join them, and ask that the web moderator move to the “trips†section, is unwise in the extreme,.

http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=7338

Paddlers could then assume that there’s an NSPN trip and travel to this potentially dangerous venue, with no initiator, no planning, and if something goes wrong, its an NSPN trip.

“As far as I can see, this was a private trip, initiated by a strong, veteran paddler who has his own way of doing things, and who doesn’ t subscribe to much of what CAM and NSPN group paddling/club trips are currently all about.â€

Peter, we all, to some extent, have our own way of doing things. Sometimes I post and sometimes I don’t, depending on whether I’m looking for others to paddle with me. In this case, I already had a large group that expressed interest in the trip so there was no need to post. In fact, I didn’t want even one more person on the trip.

But, I do I “subscribe to what CAM and NSPN group paddling/club trips are currently all about.†But sometimes, it’s less formal with me. When I go out with a few close friends to paddle the same trip that we’ve paddled many times before, the CAM stuff is implicit, if not explicit. The on beach briefing may be as simple as “the tide is low now so let’s not use the shortcut between Gales Point and the mainlandâ€. But, that’s because we’ve covered all the explicit details on many prior occasions. We have already discussed many CAM and non-CAM things. Like: who can roll, I’ll tell you if I want to go ahead for a short sprint, what VHF channels to use, basic rescue techniques (e.g. I almost never do the T rescue because I prefer getting the swimmer back in ASAP), that all members share in decision making, etc. So, I think that I do follow CAM, but perhaps I should strive to be even more CAMable (Ern like’s this word of mine). Obviously the long crossing IOS trip should probably have been a little more formal, especially for the return trip. But I don’t think that the outcome would have been any different.

“For my part, If I were signed on to this trip I would have presumed that this was not a CAM/ NSPN trip, this was Leon’s trip and tried to do things Leon’s way …â€. I

I only tried to take over once, when things got dicey and the conditions wouldn’t allow for group discussions. Prior to that everyone had equal votes. During the rescue Bob was completely in charge. That’s the way it should be.

“Now, one trip member , evidently without consulting the other trip members , has posted this on the NSPN trips forum, where CAM, NSPN group paddling, trip levels and such are being invoked when there's no evidence that those for whom such advice is intended or who might benefit from it, are receptive to itâ€.

I think that all of us are receptive to the advice. But some advice, such as “we should have towedâ€, is clearly inapplicable to the situation we were in. You really just had to be there to appreciate this. If that comes across as a â€I was there. You weren’t†posture†then so be it. Sometimes facts on the ground (water) trump the best-intentioned suggestions by outside advisors. If it sounds like I’m not willing to listen to a general tutorial about towing, you’re correct, at least in the context of this trip. Another time and place perhaps. I might be strong and I might be a veteran by definition, but I don’t profess to be a strong veteran.

[jason]

“As far as I can see, this was a private trip, initiated by a strong, veteran paddler who has his own way of doing things, and who doesn’ t subscribe to much of what CAM and NSPN group paddling/club trips are currently all about.”

Peter, we all, to some extent, have our own way of doing things. Sometimes I post and sometimes I don’t, depending on whether I’m looking for others to paddle with me. In this case, I already had a large group that expressed interest in the trip so there was no need to post. In fact, I didn’t want even one more person on the trip.

But, I do I “subscribe to what CAM and NSPN group paddling/club trips are currently all about.” But sometimes, it’s less formal with me. When I go out with a few close friends to paddle the same trip that we’ve paddled many times before, the CAM stuff is implicit, if not explicit. The on beach briefing may be as simple as “the tide is low now so let’s not use the shortcut between Gales Point and the mainland”. But, that’s because we’ve covered all the explicit details on many prior occasions. We have already discussed many CAM and non-CAM things. Like: who can roll, I’ll tell you if I want to go ahead for a short sprint, what VHF channels to use, basic rescue techniques (e.g. I almost never do the T rescue because I prefer getting the swimmer back in ASAP), that all members share in decision making, etc. So, I think that I do follow CAM, but perhaps I should strive to be even more CAMable (Ern like’s this word of mine). Obviously the long crossing IOS trip should probably have been a little more formal, especially for the return trip. But I don’t think that the outcome would have been any different.

“For my part, If I were signed on to this trip I would have presumed that this was not a CAM/ NSPN trip, this was Leon’s trip and tried to do things Leon’s way …”. I

I only tried to take over once, when things got dicey and the conditions wouldn’t allow for group discussions. Prior to that everyone had equal votes. During the rescue Bob was completely in charge. That’s the way it should be.

“Now, one trip member , evidently without consulting the other trip members , has posted this on the NSPN trips forum, where CAM, NSPN group paddling, trip levels and such are being invoked when there's no evidence that those for whom such advice is intended or who might benefit from it, are receptive to it”.

I think that all of us are receptive to the advice. But some advice, such as “we should have towed”, is clearly inapplicable to the situation we were in. You really just had to be there to appreciate this. If that comes across as a ”I was there. You weren’t” posture” then so be it. Sometimes facts on the ground (water) trump the best-intentioned suggestions by outside advisors. If it sounds like I’m not willing to listen to a general tutorial about towing, you’re correct, at least in the context of this trip. Another time and place perhaps. I might be strong and I might be a veteran by definition, but I don’t profess to be a strong veteran.

As for this trip this is a clearly a L4 trip. I thought that we covered this all in July when we warned Gene not to attempt this:

http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=7136

I would suggest the following:

1. You should attempting attempting towing in conditions, I think that you will surprised has effective a tow can be even in big conditions.

2. Working on communicating with the group without the radio. Once you need the radio to talk with the group something is wrong.

3. Use a T rescue as your primary way to rescue others as it will get them back into a dry boat quickly and get them moving along even in conditions.

I am glad nobody got hurt (I know some have hurt feelings but they will heal) and everybody made it back home.

-Jason

[Pintail]

<... that IOS could easily become a Level 4 paddle particularly in the afternoon>

As Jason writes, Gene (with all due respect), this trip is <always> a level 4 trip by NSPN definition (I have written this already, a page or two back). Go into "trip levels" and read the bit about exposure to open ocean! This trip could simply never be a "level 3" trip, regardless of conditions.

Sorry to harp on about this...