Isle of Shoals Sept 16

[subaruguru]

King Neptune: "How's it going, Mom?"

Mother Nature: "Pretty well, 'cept there's still a lot of cleaning up to do. I heard you've been pretty busy lately too."

"Yeah, you know, what with the hurricanes and stuff."

"Picked up something on the low-level tremors 'bout an incident off Smuttynose in the Isle of Shoals last Thursday that I thought you might know something about...involving a pod 'o humans?

"Oh yeah...them. But it's not like they weren't warned, even by their own crude forecasting devices. They didn't expect me to start blowin' it up until later in the afternoon, with no precip until sunset.

No big deal. And isn't seven one of their lucky numbers?"

"I had left them a pretty nice day for their adventure as far as I remember. What happened?"

"Well they left reasonably prepared, y'know, with a couple of charts, a position-marker thingy..."

"It's called a GPS."

"Yeah...and those extra arm-extenders..."

"They're called 'paddles'."

"...yeah, and some wireless talk-boxes, enough water and fuel, I suppose, and talked about their direction, too.

And you're right: you set a nice table for them, and soon enough they settled into their trip. But you know those humans and their natural variation and multi-versity..."

"That's called...sigh...never mind."

"Well, point is they stretched themselves out, four in front and three behind, including a strong one for safety. Pretty soon the front four split to two pairs, upping the ante a bit..."

"Huh? This isn't poker."

"Yeah, well bear with me. They reconnoitered a bit and eventually all landed together on one of your lovely small beaches, visited Smuttynose, where they fueled up again and had a great time with the caretakers there. And I learned a new word that describes their species' behavior sometimes, too."

"What's that?"

"Com...com...com-placency."

"Oh yeah...that one."

"Yeah...la-di-dah. They then chatted again about getting back before my chance arrival, and decided to be more careful about staying together on their return. But soon enough they broke into two groups again, a mix of four up front and two strongest to stay with one not-so in the rear. I had already started my trip north by then, blowin' it up about 12 knots. So it wasn't more than a few minutes before your tablecloth got ruffled up a bit."

"So why didn't they stay together? Isn't that what humans do when they start to get scared?"

"Well as far as I can tell (their radios were garbled a bit) the back trio was lagging enough behind that the front four felt they needed to make headway because six or seven miles of big-ripple is tiring for them. Besides, they had reasonable confidence in the two groups collective strengths and abilities, I suppose."

"But you couldn't leave it alone, could you?"

"Hey c'mon... I have a rep to live up to!"

"Yeah, yeah...so what happened next?"

"Well my rolling seas were exactly on their beams, so they had some trouble. The rear trio somehow decided to stay on a reverse-track to get to their origin, despite the inhospitable angle. The front four then experienced some trouble when the smallest of them, in her new boat, was capped by one of my 5 or 6 footers, and had I think what they call a capsize. One directly behind her got her positioned alright along her stern and near his bow, but he couldn't turn to form a 'T" because he forgot he had his skeg down and just wasn't strong enough as I repeatedly threw more rollers at them. Then a third came in perpendicular from nearby and started to T-up for a rescue. As the kayak (which had only a little water in it) was drained, it became clear that the floating one's skirt-handle was twisted in the kayak's stern toggle."

"What?!"

"Yup. So the now-superfluous first rescuer approached closer to offer his bow in case she had to let go of her overturned kayak, but he then just became a potential nuisance. They even called him 'Vaag the Impaler' later on. I'll have to remember that one....

The rescuer performed brilliantly, and soon the foursome was on its way, still unsure where the trailing trio were.

They tried to chart a course south-west to get back, but I kept pushing them at 10-15 knots and rolling them up and down. They heard some radio'd advice about "keeping left", but no compass heading was agreed upon, as communications between the quartet and the trio were not, let's say, sufficient to allow harmony.

"Cute."

"Thanks, Mom. I'm not always just about thunder and lightning, y'know....

Somehow or other the capsized lass and her savior got adrenalized enough to separate from the other two...sufficiently so they were out of earshot. Guess they wanted to get back FAST! The rear pair continued on a WSW heading, but within a mile or two from shore couldn't see their put-in...nor anyone else. By then I was consistently sending them 6 footers every three seconds. I just love to get that quick rhythm goin'....

"So the front duo just decided to make landfall as quickly as possible?"

"Yup. Except I kinda catapulted her at the last second, messin' up her landing."

"Why the hell'd you do that?"

"I've been working on my control issues, but what can you expect? I yam what I yam..."

"Uh, that's already been done..."

"Oh. So where was I? Oh yeah: the rear duo then decided to forget about their cute and wickedly tiresome WSW heading and finally turned 120 to head straight north and ride my rollers home. I KNEW I could break them! So they picked a beach landing between some houses on their left and woods on their right that was reminiscent of the put-in. So I let' em surf in nicely with just a few hull scratches."

"Yeah, but look where you sent these duos!"

"Ha! Yeah, I blew the first duo far enough north so that they landed 2.6 miles off the put-in..."

"Hey, that's Wallace's."

"Yup. And get this: the second duo ended up three friggin' quarters of a mile north of THAT! They call it Pebble Cove. Three point three miles off! Haven't done that in awhile.

I think the trailing trio ended up at the actual put-in because they used a wavelength tremor locater machine...oh yeah...GPS to get back. But it took 'em a long time."

"And I understand they all found each other in the end?"

"Yup. The front duo got picked up by the rear trio, but that shocked them into the realization that the other duo was missing! But they had called a friend to grab a ride back to the put-in pretty quickly, so fears started to subside within a few minutes...not so bad. But they were all pretty shook up."

"Well you certainly ruined the dinner plans they had set for the evening, and left my table a mess!"

"Hey, that's just MY Nature too."

"So now I hear them all squabbling with a mixture of relief, fear, misplaced guilt, and that curiously human brew of bravado tinged with humility from having erred in several ways when wrestling with the royal Neptune."

"Yeah. The planner-human feels bad because he thinks he goofed up because he couldn't predict my behavior, and he knows that after all he can't blame anybody for not being able to handle my stuff as well as he can. Don't they know they already have enough messiahs to go around?"

"Hmmm.... Seems to Mom that variations in individual human ability should be accommodated by their group decision-making, always ensuring that any weak or injured one is most cared-for...especially when YOU'RE around. I think they should've stayed together regardless."

"Yeah, but they didn't. And who are you, Ms. CAM? I was blowin' it up so that they couldn't hear each other, and I guess purposely slowing down when they're staring at miles and miles of very lumpy crossing was just too difficult for them to coordinate."

"I'm not sure. Maybe they could've tried heading more southerly (upwind) so that they could then turn downwind and get pushed for awhile, and repeat this pattern? I think they call this 'zig-zagging.' Or just ALL decide to head north and get pushed by you, surfing home and worrying about their transportation to their put-in later?"

"Well, they seemed to do MOST of that, but in mini-groups."

"Fortunately they didn't have multiple coincident capsizes that would've REALLY changed the outcome, and gotten you in the news big-time again. So why did you decide to take it easy on them this time?"

"Well one of their esteemed leaders remarked later that these humans seem to only progress their skill levels when challenged, and keeping them working hard to figure out how to safely manage themselves with lessened risk is their job.

And then there's that control issue we all struggle with, eh Mom?"

"But they're only HUMAN! They screwed up this group management thing because they don't have enough of this 'CAM' stuff drilled into them yet. They need more time and training."

"True dat, Mom. But they like to say it's all about their efforts, struggles, processes, and all that 'life' stuff. Heck, they even have a vehicle message that says 'Shit Happens'. I'm not sure whether to feel gratified for their acknowledgment of us or to be insulted.

"Cool it. It's not about you. And now you have them worrying about responsibility, blame, guilt, subconscious death-wishes...and one of them's even claiming there's an elephant in the room!"

"Well isn't that special?!"

"

"

"

[...]

Ernie,

Thank you for providing additional information regarding the Isle of Shoals trip. As a beginner, I can not begin to imagine all the challenges the group faced. The crucial conversations that invaribiliy need to take place are never easy. I will read future postings with great interest.

Warren

[brambor]

Great writeup Ernie. I guess there was no opportunity for pictures during the paddle huh ? ;-)

rb

King Neptune: "How's it going, Mom?"

Mother Nature: "Pretty well, 'cept there's still a lot of cleaning up to do. I heard you've been pretty busy lately too."

"Yeah, you know, what with the hurricanes and stuff."

"Picked up something on the low-level tremors 'bout an incident off Smuttynose in the Isle of Shoals last Thursday that I thought you might know something about...involving a pod 'o humans?

"Oh yeah...them. But it's not like they weren't warned, even by their own crude forecasting devices. They didn't expect me to start blowin' it up until later in the afternoon, with no precip until sunset.

No big deal. And isn't seven one of their lucky numbers?"

"I had left them a pretty nice day for their adventure as far as I remember. What happened?"

"Well they left reasonably prepared, y'know, with a couple of charts, a position-marker thingy..."

"It's called a GPS."

"Yeah...and those extra arm-extenders..."

"They're called 'paddles'."

"...yeah, and some wireless talk-boxes, enough water and fuel, I suppose, and talked about their direction, too.

And you're right: you set a nice table for them, and soon enough they settled into their trip. But you know those humans and their natural variation and multi-versity..."

"That's called...sigh...never mind."

"Well, point is they stretched themselves out, four in front and three behind, including a strong one for safety. Pretty soon the front four split to two pairs, upping the ante a bit..."

"Huh? This isn't poker."

"Yeah, well bear with me. They reconnoitered a bit and eventually all landed together on one of your lovely small beaches, visited Smuttynose, where they fueled up again and had a great time with the caretakers there. And I learned a new word that describes their species' behavior sometimes, too."

"What's that?"

"Com...com...com-placency."

"Oh yeah...that one."

"Yeah...la-di-dah. They then chatted again about getting back before my chance arrival, and decided to be more careful about staying together on their return. But soon enough they broke into two groups again, a mix of four up front and two strongest to stay with one not-so in the rear. I had already started my trip north by then, blowin' it up about 12 knots. So it wasn't more than a few minutes before your tablecloth got ruffled up a bit."

"So why didn't they stay together? Isn't that what humans do when they start to get scared?"

"Well as far as I can tell (their radios were garbled a bit) the back trio was lagging enough behind that the front four felt they needed to make headway because six or seven miles of big-ripple is tiring for them. Besides, they had reasonable confidence in the two groups collective strengths and abilities, I suppose."

"But you couldn't leave it alone, could you?"

"Hey c'mon... I have a rep to live up to!"

"Yeah, yeah...so what happened next?"

"Well my rolling seas were exactly on their beams, so they had some trouble. The rear trio somehow decided to stay on a reverse-track to get to their origin, despite the inhospitable angle. The front four then experienced some trouble when the smallest of them, in her new boat, was capped by one of my 5 or 6 footers, and had I think what they call a capsize. One directly behind her got her positioned alright along her stern and near his bow, but he couldn't turn to form a 'T" because he forgot he had his skeg down and just wasn't strong enough as I repeatedly threw more rollers at them. Then a third came in perpendicular from nearby and started to T-up for a rescue. As the kayak (which had only a little water in it) was drained, it became clear that the floating one's skirt-handle was twisted in the kayak's stern toggle."

"What?!"

"Yup. So the now-superfluous first rescuer approached closer to offer his bow in case she had to let go of her overturned kayak, but he then just became a potential nuisance. They even called him 'Vaag the Impaler' later on. I'll have to remember that one....

The rescuer performed brilliantly, and soon the foursome was on its way, still unsure where the trailing trio were.

They tried to chart a course south-west to get back, but I kept pushing them at 10-15 knots and rolling them up and down. They heard some radio'd advice about "keeping left", but no compass heading was agreed upon, as communications between the quartet and the trio were not, let's say, sufficient to allow harmony.

"Cute."

"Thanks, Mom. I'm not always just about thunder and lightning, y'know....

Somehow or other the capsized lass and her savior got adrenalized enough to separate from the other two...sufficiently so they were out of earshot. Guess they wanted to get back FAST! The rear pair continued on a WSW heading, but within a mile or two from shore couldn't see their put-in...nor anyone else. By then I was consistently sending them 6 footers every three seconds. I just love to get that quick rhythm goin'....

"So the front duo just decided to make landfall as quickly as possible?"

"Yup. Except I kinda catapulted her at the last second, messin' up her landing."

"Why the hell'd you do that?"

"I've been working on my control issues, but what can you expect? I yam what I yam..."

"Uh, that's already been done..."

"Oh. So where was I? Oh yeah: the rear duo then decided to forget about their cute and wickedly tiresome WSW heading and finally turned 120 to head straight north and ride my rollers home. I KNEW I could break them! So they picked a beach landing between some houses on their left and woods on their right that was reminiscent of the put-in. So I let' em surf in nicely with just a few hull scratches."

"Yeah, but look where you sent these duos!"

"Ha! Yeah, I blew the first duo far enough north so that they landed 2.6 miles north of the put-in..."

"Hey, that's Wallace's."

"Yup. And get this: the second duo ended up three friggin' quarters of a mile north of THAT! They call it Pebble Cove. Three point three miles off! Haven't done that in awhile.

I think the trailing trio ended up at the actual put-in because they used a wavelength tremor locater machine...oh yeah...GPS to get back. But it took 'em a long time."

"And I understand they all found each other in the end?"

"Yup. The front duo got picked up by the rear trio, but that shocked them into the realization that the other duo was missing! But they had called a friend to grab a ride back to the put-in pretty quickly, so fears started to subside within a few minutes...not so bad. But they were all pretty shook up."

"Well you certainly ruined the dinner plans they had set for the evening, and left my table a mess!"

"Hey, that's just MY nature too."

"So now I hear them all squabbling with a mixture of relief, fear, misplaced guilt, and that curiously human brew of bravado tinged with humility from having erred in several ways when wrestling with the royal Neptune."

"Yeah. The planner-human feels bad because he thinks he goofed up because he couldn't predict my behavior, and he knows that after all he can't blame anybody for not being able to handle my stuff as well as he can. Don't they know they already have enough messiahs to go around?"

"Hmmm.... Seems to Mom that variations in individual human ability should be accommodated by their group decision-making, always ensuring that any weak or injured one is most cared-for...especially when YOU'RE around. I think they should've stayed together regardless."

"Yeah, but they didn't. And who are you, Ms. CAM? I was blowin' it up so that they couldn't hear each other, and I guess purposely slowing down when they're staring at miles and miles of very lumpy crossing was just too difficult for them to coordinate."

"I'm not sure. Maybe they could've tried heading more southerly (upwind) so that they could then turn downwind and get pushed for awhile, and repeat this pattern? I think they call this 'zig-zagging.' Or just ALL decide to head north and get pushed by you, surfing home and worrying about their transportation to their put-in later?"

"Well, they seemed to do ALL of that, but in mini-groups."

"Fortunately they didn't have multiple coincident capsizes that would've REALLY changed the outcome, and gotten you in the news bigtime again. So why did you decide to take it easy on them this time?"

"Well one of their esteemed leaders remarked later that these humans seem to only progress their skill levels when challenged, and keeping them working hard to figure out how to safely manage themselves with lessened risk is their job.

And then there's that control issue we all struggle with, eh Mom?"

"But they're only HUMAN! They screwed up this group management thing because they don't have enough of this 'CAM' stuff drilled into them yet. They need more time and training."

"True dat, Mom. But they like to say it's all about their efforts, struggles, processes, and all that 'life' stuff. Heck, they even have a vehicle message that says 'Shit Happens'. I'm not sure whether to feel gratified for their acknowledgment of us or to be insulted.

"Cool it. It's not about you. And now you have them worrying about responsibility, blame, guilt, subconscious death-wishes...and one of them's even claiming there's an elephant in the room!"

"Well isn't that special?"

"

"

"

[subaruguru]

Great writeup Ernie. I guess there was no opportunity for pictures during the paddle huh ? ;-)

rb

We have some photos of the outgoing leg only...and a couple of traces.

Lisa? Bev?

[lhunt]

Pictures are here (some by Leon) but, no, I didn't use my hands for taking pictures during the paddle out. Not that I didn't think of it! But I tried to imagine the conversation later... "So you capsized while trying to do what?!"

By the way, thanks to DebM, Kate, and Doug chatting about cameras a little while back - I have a brand-new Panasonic TS2 and love it. You saved me a lot of research time.

Trace for the trailing pod here.

[brambor]

Nice Pictures. Thinking of past planning threads from Gene it looks like he got to experience a wide array of scenarios on this trip.

[Lallen]

Ernie, this is a great trip report. You struck just the right balance conveying the challenges and problems with humor, honesty and a light touch. It brings up some things I've experienced on CAM trips-first that communication becomes more difficult with wind, and an inability to communicate is a set up for problems. Second, when the conditions get tough and everyone is working hard to maintain forward momentum, the group tends to spread further apart and become more fragmented. Finally a CAM trip doesn't mean a leaderless trip, because as you succinctly pointed out in another post that can lead to a free-for-all mentality. Even when paddling with an experienced group of paddlers, folks in the group will have different strengths and weaknesses, and may need to take different leadership roles throughout the trip. And everyone has a responsibility to look over their shoulder and check in with their fellow paddlers.

I'm glad you all made it back o.k. given what Mother Nature threw your way. I'm sure that rescue must have been challenging given the waves that were rolling out there!

[Gcosloy]

Nice Pictures. Thinking of past planning threads from Gene it looks like he got to experience a wide array of scenarios on this trip.

Like the blind man hold of but one part of the Elephant's anatomy I can only describe what I felt on this trip. We set out in mild to moderate conditions with some chop and a favorable wind. About 2/3 beyond the crossing an east wind made the last leg a little harder to paddle. Seven left Rye harbor and almost immediately broke into three pods, two paddlers setting a fast pace, two not as fast but brisk and three in the rear paddling a leisurely pace. After a nice lunch and tour of Smuttynose we returned to a very different sea. Strong swell and wind from the SE resulting in a beam or quartering sea on the track back to our intended landing. The quarter was sometimes on our bows making for the ocassional whack O; no I want you to go South man. After one or two miles out one of our group went for a swim and was ably assisted by one of our skilled paddlers in such rescues. Even so, doing 180 in those conditions was trying and while several strong paddlers turned around to assist it was good fortune that one paddler was right on the spot when it happened.

We did have several GPS to define the track back but a discussion arose as to the wisdom of going with the flow,i.e. down wind and down wave. The presumption was that the faster off the water to any port was best. By this time we were experiencing 6' seas and the ocassional breaker. A rogue in that situation could have been over 8' which is what in fact hit the paddler to my right who miraculously stayed up and only lost his favorite cap. I love following seas and would have been happy to go down wind but felt strongly that risk to the entire group was increased. I was happy to stay on track, eyes focused on the stuff coming at me and being confident in my boat and paddle. Sometimes I had to brace into the breakers but most of the time it was just steady paddling and a few anticipatory braces on the trough after rising over a particularly large one. I was one of four using wing paddles that day for which I was grateful. They do bite in big seas and make for a more stable ride.

Four decided to go down wind and ultimately pared off two and two before making separate landings 3 to 4 miles north of the harbor. I do think they hit terra firma sooner than we three who remained on track. Whether it was a better strategy or one less risky, or even more pleasurable, is something only they can answer. Our pod was slower but I felt more sure. Whether the increased time on the water put us more at risk is another factor to consider. Perhaps speed in and of itself is a safety factor to consider. Ironically, two in my pod were the fastest paddlers on the water that day and are seasoned racers in kayaks with rudders. Even if they elected to stay on the beamy path, were they not with me, I feel sure they could have arrived back at Rye before anyone else. Did my lack of speed put them at additional risk? Only they can answer that! It does however raise a good question about paddler suitability for certain trips. This trip clearly turned into a Level 4 trip. If getting off the water safely before conditions became even worse required a sprint of over 4 to 5 knots for maybe 3 to 4 miles, I was not qualified.

I'm glad to have done this trip and will need to think very carefully whether I should ever do it again. While the ride back was fraught with some danger it was the highlight of the trip for me; I hate open water crossings and straight ahead paddles and were it not for the "conditions" would have been bored and disapointed. Kudos and gratitude to the six other paddlers who were my companions that day.

[brambor]

Excellent report Gene.

[leong]

King Neptune: "How's it going, Mom?"

"Well my rolling seas were exactly on their beams, so they had some trouble. The rear trio somehow decided to stay on a reverse-track to get to their origin, despite the inhospitable angle. The front four then experienced some trouble when the smallest of them, in her new boat, was capped by one of my 5 or 6 footers, and had I think what they call a capsize.

Here’s a technical question (requiring an addition to Ern’s tale) for the experts reading this thread.

The additional facts first:

When the lass in the Ern’s story went over I heard someone scream she’s in the water (or something like that). At that point in time I was dead last in the last pod, acting as sweep, just behind Gene and Lisa was just a little ahead of Gene. Not sure, but I think I was about 200 or 300 yards behind the swimmer. I yelled out to Gene and Lisa to stay together and then I sprinted as fast as I could to get to the capsize location. I saw the T-rescue in progress during my sprint (it was superb, especially considering the extremely rough conditions). When I arrived at the scene, Bob Levine had already emptied the swimmer’s boat, was holding it and the swimmer was still trying to climb back in. Bob’s boat was bouncing around like a cork in the high waves, but he had a good grip on the swimmer’s boat. I approached Bob’s boat on the downwind side and asked him if I could help by rafting up to him. He said yes so I rafted up to him and soon after, the swimmer climbed back in. The configuration was Bob holding the swimmers boat on one side of his boat and I was holding Bob’s boat on the other side. I continued to hold on until after she pumped out and put her spray skirt back on. I think that the rescue would have been accomplished without my rafting up, so I’m not sure that I provided any added value, except perhaps the potential for quickly helping if something went bad.

Is there a lesson here? Did I make a mistake by rafting up at all? Perhaps I should have just held a position nearby, but ready to move in only if it became obvious that additional help was needed.

[jeffcasey]

at the risk of poking too hard, i'd like to question the wisdom of breaking the group up in those conditions. was it a consensus? an active decision in which everyone took part? did the leaders just take off? how about the bearing back decision, that is pretty important, how was that made?

[Doug]

Here’s a technical question (requiring an addition to Ern’s tale) for the experts reading this thread.

The configuration was Bob holding the swimmers boat on one side of his boat and I was holding Bob’s boat on the other side. I continued to hold on until after she pumped out and put her spray skirt back on. I think that the rescue would have been accomplished without my rafting up, so I’m not sure that I provided any added value, except perhaps the potential for quickly helping if something went bad.

Is there a lesson here? Did I make a mistake by rafting up at all? Perhaps I should have just held a position nearby, but ready to move in only if it became obvious that additional help was needed.

Leon,

I too may have appreciated the added stability of the 3 boats together. If the oncoming waves were too steep and close together, they may have forced you apart. Aparently it worked out fine and you managed to stay together during and after the rescue. This is a good thing.

Perhaps the group split up because of self preservation. We all have a paddle pace that we feel most comfortable in bad conditions. Any less effort could compromise ones most powerful brace, the forward stroke.

Given the state of the sea conditions that afternoon, smaller pods were probably more managable than a group of seven. I'm sure many will disagree with me on that one...

[subaruguru]

at the risk of poking too hard, i'd like to question the wisdom of breaking the group up in those conditions. was it a consensus?

....No.

an active decision in which everyone took part?

....No.

did the leaders just take off?

....Hmmm... I think Doug nailed it: self-preservation.

how about the bearing back decision, that is pretty important, how was that made?

...Unsure what you mean by "bearing back".

Ern

[subaruguru]

" I love following seas and would have been happy to go down wind but felt strongly that risk to the entire group was increased. I was happy to stay on track, eyes focused on the stuff coming at me and being confident in my boat and paddle."

It's my understanding that the strength of that conviction overruled your pod-mates wishes, and of course resulted in a much slower collective pace. So be it. Which would've been better of course NO ONE knows!

I mention this both for CAM case study use... and:

Knowing that you were in your Force4 I was wondering whether I would've been better off in my Force5 rather than the highly-rockered and slippery-assed Vaag? I was constantly getting pushed sideways (north), and having to turn back upwind to stay on course. Was the Force4 more stable tracking for you in these large beam conditions than let's say your Chatham or similar? (But then maybe you would've COMPLETELY stalled in the pokey Chatham?!)

Conversely, once Bev and I decided to head purely downwind the Vaag proved to surf extraordinarily straightly, not requiring the corrective strokes the Force5 requires as it zig-zags in a following sea. The waves were too big and we were too far off the coast for me to risk trying to ride them at angles to develop greater speed. (Certainly this would've provoked broaching my Force5, which just doesn't obediently slide on a wave face like the Vaag.)

So I can imagine that your course insistence was also technically preferable perhaps both because the Force's long waterline maintained track AND you avoided following sea "correction noise". I of course have no experience with Leon's Surge nor Lisa's Epic to know which course their crafts "preferred", and thus the components of their decisions preferring altering track....

I found the Vaag to be MUCH slower in the large beamy rollers than I expected, given its quickness in softer conditions. Then again there are limits to such a highly rockered design, I suppose.

Too bad engineering the controlled repeat experiments to tease out these traits is not, let's say, simple, nor perhaps prudent just yet, eh? But someday....

Ern

[bazzert]

Quite a different from ours in july. Glad you all made it back safely.

Barry.

[leong]

Ern,

By "bearing back", Jeff just was asking how you made the decision of what compass angle to follow from where you were to where you wanted to go.

This is the fourth time I tried to post this (the first three directly to Ern's post) this time to the very end. I will give up if this one doesn't work.

[tyson]

Quite a different from ours in july. Glad you all made it back safely.

I found glassy water 5 miles out to sea a bit disturbing. I also found our failed "pool roll" in such flat conditions disturbing. Other than that, it was a disturbingly nice trip!

[Gcosloy]

" I love following seas and would have been happy to go down wind but felt strongly that risk to the entire group was increased. I was happy to stay on track, eyes focused on the stuff coming at me and being confident in my boat and paddle."

It's my understanding that the strength of that conviction overruled your pod-mates wishes, and of course resulted in a much slower collective pace. So be it. Which would've been better of course NO ONE knows!

I mention this both for CAM case study use... and:

Ern-I don't know for sure-Leon wanted to go down wind and Lisa responded that she was staying with me. Had she known that I would have been comfortable going with them perhaps she would have been happy to go as well. (It was hard to communicate in those conditions.)

Knowing that you were in your Force4 I was wondering whether I would've been better off in my Force5 rather than the highly-rockered and slippery-assed Vaag? I was constantly getting pushed sideways (north), and having to turn back upwind to stay on course. Was the Force4 more stable tracking for you in these large beam conditions than let's say your Chatham or similar? (But then maybe you would've COMPLETELY stalled in the pokey Chatham?!)

Ern- I was quite happy with the way the Force performed in the beam sea. A moderate skeg helped. However it was difficult getting back on track when the bow was hammered and the boat sent northwards. I had to retract the skeg. While the Chatham would be easier to correct it also would have been easier to get blown around in the same conditions. I do know that downwave would have been perfect for the Chatham. Zigzagging with the Force? Never noticed it beyond some yawing which is easy to correct.

Conversely, once Bev and I decided to head purely downwind the Vaag proved to surf extraordinarily straightly, not requiring the corrective strokes the Force5 requires as it zig-zags in a following sea. The waves were too big and we were too far off the coast for me to risk trying to ride them at angles to develop greater speed. (Certainly this would've provoked broaching my Force5, which just doesn't obediently slide on a wave face like the Vaag.)

So I can imagine that your course insistence was also technically preferable perhaps both because the Force's long waterline maintained track AND you avoided following sea "correction noise". I of course have no experience with Leon's Surge nor Lisa's Epic to know which course their crafts "preferred", and thus the components of their decisions preferring altering track....

I found the Vaag to be MUCH slower in the large beamy rollers than I expected, given its quickness in softer conditions. Then again there are limits to such a highly rockered design, I suppose.

Too bad engineering the controlled repeat experiments to tease out these traits is not, let's say, simple, nor perhaps prudent just yet, eh? But someday....

Ern

[subaruguru]

Ern,

By "bearing back", Jeff just was asking how you made the decision of what compass angle to follow from where you were to where you wanted to go.

I see. As the waves became consistent at 6+ feet and 3 sec it simply became easier to turn FULLY northward to be inline with them, which was at 0 deg heading. I just was not comfortable riding down their huge faces at 1/4ing angles, esp for the first time in a new boat. It was MUCH easier to just let it turn fully inline and experience the kayak's fine ability to stay perpendicular in these big rollers.

If we hadn't still been a couple of miles out it would've felt safer to experiment.*

Our original heading was about 260, just slightly into them. Without a visual land target we were unable to determine how far north we had been pushed before the correction. Final tweaking occurred when Bev and I spotted a reasonably quiet beach between houses and forest...enough resembling the put-in that it was REALLY easy to let this mirage suck us in! I also wasn't aware that our turn was a full 140 deg! Somehow my brain didn't fully appreciate the change of indication on my new Brunton 85 from "26" to "0" being 140 deg. For an engineer who had a career as a measurement scientist this oversight is, let's say, a bit embarrassing. (Who cares if a bigger compass is readable to 2-3 deg sens if you can't do the BIG numbers!)

Bev commented that the strong rudder on his svelte 19 footer helped keep him riding squarely, too, so those final two miles were a huge series of big pushes forward, in some ways a welcome relief from the uphill-sideways feel of the past 5 miles struggle. At least we could SEE progress being made! Fortunately the waves softened as we were briskly deposited onto Pebble Cove beach by "only" 2-3 footers.

Ern

*I mentioned direction options in big rollers to my buds at CRCK who suggested that more experience in same will produce a "looser hips" relaxation allowing both a faster cadence a-beam and more playful angles when being pushed hard. I'll try this when I can see familiar land without binoculars!

[rick stoehrer]

things that don't actually kill you are fantastic lessons - mistakes should be self evident. sounds a lot like you paddled to a little island 6 miles offshore without too much in way of a plan to get back and without the skills in the group to safely return.

now go beat yourselves up, talk it all out amongst yourselves, recognize your mistakes and try not to make them too many times more.

and you guys know better than anyone else...what woulda happened if...? how much worse COULD that have been and how far away were you from there you think?

so pretty serious consequences?

you guys ready to have that conversation with the spouse left back on shore? you even know their name? if you're going to paddle to places that far off shore in conditions that are at or beyond your abilities, you need to consider how that conversation plays out...for the person giving it and the person getting it.

glad you made it back and were merely inconvenienced.

[gyork]

I approached Bob’s boat on the downwind side and asked him if I could help by rafting up to him. He said yes .....

Did I make a mistake by rafting up at all?

Leon, seems you may have added a bit of comfort/confidence to the rescuer and rescuee. In those conditions this no-star paddler would have welcomed the (?perception of) increased stability.

This outing emphasizes the importance of "beach" briefings ocurring prior to EVERY launch.

Gary

[emilie]

If we hadn't still been a couple of miles out it would've felt safer to experiment.*

This is part of why the length of open water crossings on a trip matters for the level. Things that can be fun near safety, can be harrowing farther out. Add to that the fact that the sea and weather change over time. Longer crossing just lead to higher risk probability.

[tyson]

If we hadn't still been a couple of miles out it would've felt safer to experiment.*

[...]

*I mentioned direction options in big rollers to my buds at CRCK who suggested that more experience in same will produce a "looser hips" relaxation allowing both a faster cadence a-beam and more playful angles when being pushed hard. I'll try this when I can see familiar land without binoculars!

- Attend the various kayaking/rough water symposiums.

- Play in the soup zone

- Play in surf

- Play on the sandbars in Ipswich Bay

- Play in The Narrows at Narragansett

- Play in the zipper at Popham

It will loosen up your hips and help you relax in those conditions.

Two years ago, I would have been white knuckled in conditions that I now put my paddle down and take pictures. ...and occasionally, one I don't see coming will flip me over at which point I drop the camera, grab the paddle, roll up and look for the next picture to take.

And never forget that no matter how pleasant and easy a trip to the Shoals can be (our trip this July), it can also change to be a hard core L4 trip while you're out there(out trip last year). This trip is reported to have had 15kt winds. When Emilie and I did this trip last year we had confirmed and sustained 25-27kt winds (reported and recorded) and the tall, steep chop that goes with those winds.

[Gcosloy]

things that don't actually kill you are fantastic lessons - mistakes should be self evident. sounds a lot like you paddled to a little island 6 miles offshore without too much in way of a plan to get back and without the skills in the group to safely return.

now go beat yourselves up, talk it all out amongst yourselves, recognize your mistakes and try not to make them too many times more.

and you guys know better than anyone else...what woulda happened if...? how much worse COULD that have been and how far away were you from there you think?

so pretty serious consequences?

you guys ready to have that conversation with the spouse left back on shore? you even know their name? if you're going to paddle to places that far off shore in conditions that are at or beyond your abilities, you need to consider how that conversation plays out...for the person giving it and the person getting it.

Rick, I think you're being a little harsh. There was a plan and an attempt by the initiators/leaders to manage the group on the leg back. What occurred was individual wills deciding on an other path. We remark all the time about how we're all adults and sometimes we make individual and not group decisions. For some it may have been a question of survival where all bets are off. If so I can only offer empathy and understanding.

glad you made it back and were merely inconvenienced.

[rick stoehrer]

gene, that is empathy - it's something i've had to think about.

if you find yourself paddling in a "survival" situation as you've said above, then you or whomever it is, need to think about the ramifications of your recreation and how that subsequent conversation is going to happen on shore with those left behind. it's a harsh consequence gene, not a harsh comment.

if you're going to continue to use that same "we're adults and individuals argument/plan" and continue to be in those kinds of situations then you should have that conversation amongst yourselves.

this was explained to me by someone whom i think very highly of after i got my ass in a sling and i took it in the spirit in which it was offered - not a rebuke...just as a wake up to the scope of the game.

happy paddling gene.