Benefits of Wing paddles

[BethS]

Wow, this thread is so long and technical that I confess I will probably never read all of it, at least not all at once.. for what it's worth, in my experience w/ my wing paddle yes I do go faster, at least 25% faster, and yes, I am more tired and sore the next day. In fact, I'm more tired and sore the same day! (25% more perhaps!) I'm zipping along, but after about 4 hrs I am pooped! What I am wondering is whether the wing would be a good choice for an all day/mutiday trip; I have hesitated to use it for this because of getting tired out, but maybe I should just slow down to my normal pace while using it? Typically I don't realize I'm going faster till I'm at my destination faster than normal, and I'm having fun so I don't care! Clearly I need to experiment more with this, but I'm wondering what other people might think/do. BTW, I usually use a greenland style paddle, occasionally a regular touring paddle. I can go all day with the greenland, make decent time, and do it again the next day; it's definitely easy on the body, at least for me. But maybe it's just what I'm used too? Perhaps if I used the wing at a slower pace I would realize great benefits with distance efficiency... Of course maybe I just need to be in better shape (always working on that)! Thoughts?

[lhunt]

Hi, Beth,

You must be doing it right! I remember when I first started to "get it". I did what I thought was the right thing for, oh, maybe a minute or so, then said to myself "You're kidding, right? I'm going to do that for 3-1/2 hrs in a race?"

Then I settled down to the task. In my local river, working alone, I picked a rate I could maintain (with great concentration on technique) for 10 minutes. Then I allowed myself to revert to my old stroke to finish the workout. Next time, I did it for 10 minutes, rest for 5, then 10 more minutes. And so forth. It didn't take that long to build it up. Still, if I'm paddling casually with other people (not working out or racing), I fall into a more casual stroke. It feels "funny" otherwise. Like starting a car in 4th gear.

The speed and technique of wing and euro paddle are pretty close, especially if you aren't racing (the wing begins to help more at higher speeds). But the wing can be a reminder to polish your technique, so it might feel more difficult. A GP is a whole different thing. I think the cadence is slower, and the stroke is longer with lower arms (right, GP people?). I think that a GP slips more in the water and is therefore kinder to the joints. The wing paddle, used correctly, grabs the water more aggressively, and that can take some getting used to. One adjustment I made early in using the wing was to buy a small mid wing rather than a regular mid wing.

What part of you gets sore? Arms or torso? Using correct technique, the wing allows you to get lots of propulsion from your core. If you are rotating better with the wing for some reason, you will feel it in your torso. (Maybe you'll feel it anyway because the big push comes all at once, at the beginning of the stroke.) But you also have to use your arms to lift and position the paddle. If you do that differently than you're used to, you will feel it in your arms. Unfortunately, if it's your arms, you will feel it even if you are going slowly, I think, 'till the new muscles kick in.

When you go on your all day/multi-day trips, will they be with other people? Won't that constrain the speed anyway?

You want to know if you should take the wing on trips. So to that end: The difference between wing and GP is pretty big, I think. (I don't use a GP, so I'll probably get gonged if I'm way off. - please be gentle!) If you want to become comfortable with both, you will need to do as much exercise with the wing as you do with the GP. If you think you can do that on your trips, go for it, bring them both and switch off. If combining kayak touring and do-it-yourself stroke workshop isn't for you, then try to do the wing workouts separately. You might want to avoid a situation where you are stuck in high water wishing you were using the "other" paddle...

I'd like to make one other unrelated point. No matter what paddle you are using, there is a speed at which you are "comfortable". When conditions get rough, it's hard to paddle below that speed, wing or no wing. I'd like to posit the case that it's important to learn to paddle below your comfortable speed in all conditions, against the certainty that some day you will need that skill - somebody else is sick or tired or whatever.

Anyway, those are my very non-technical opinions on the subject - OK, guesses. :-) Hope it helps!

-Lisa

[leong]

Hi, Beth,

My race-training partner (Lisa) gave you some pretty good advice about switching to a wing paddle (she went through the learning and pain curve when she made the switch for herself).

With all due respect to Lisa, I think she made one mistake regarding paddling with a GP. Your freely chosen cadence with a GP is generally higher (not lower) than it is with a Euro or wing paddle. I think the higher cadence is probably more efficient for you and that’s one reason why you’re less fatigued at the end of the day. There is some optimal cadence for each person. That's a whole different topic that I'm working on both experimentally and analytically.

Let me point out something else: There's another reason why you're more tired. You said,”w/ my wing paddle yes I do go faster, at least 25% faster, and yes, I am more tired and sore the next day.” Well, if it’s really 25% faster, then your body has to generate about twice the power to move the kayak that much faster. That’s because at very low speeds, power is approximately proportional to the cube of speed. The cube of 1.25 (1.25*1.25*1.25) equals 1.95. Twice the power will surely tire you out faster. It’s even worse than that for a typical kayak going from 4 knots to 5 knots (1.25*4 = 5). I put the data into a simple power versus speed model for kayaks and computed that the power actually increases by a factor of 2.3.

Why don't you try to paddle with the wing at the same speed that you're paddling with the Euro or the GP. You may find that the wing is actually more efficient (energy wise) for you. But, maybe not. The subject is very complex and depends on your own physiology. The wing was invented for super athletic kayak sprinters that were interested in only one thing: getting to the finish line first. They were not concerned with how tired they were at the finish line.

Feel free to ask away. Lisa and I have been discussing (offline) the intricacies of wing paddling for several years; answering questions such as yours helps us focus on some of the core principles.

Respectfully,

Leon

[BethS]

Many thanks to both of you! Lots of good advice, esp regarding experimenting with going slower w/ the wing. Part of the problem I think is that my Greenland technique is not that great; therefore I am going a lot slower/ don't get as tired, because I'm not (as you point out) doing nearly as much work! The wing paddle I think forces me to have at least somewhat OK technique in order for it to work at all, which means I am automatically going to be doing more work, and getting more tired as I do it. Also you are right about cadence; it's a lot faster w/ the Greenland, sort of like a lower gear on a bicycle, which is less tiring. I also have a reg size wing, not a small, which was probably a mistake at least for longer distances.

Anyway, I will keep at it, I'm glad spring is (almost) here!

[lhunt]

By the way, Beth, how long is your wing paddle? Shorter paddle gives you higher cadence...

[djlewis]

Then Lisa wrote this among her sensible response: <The experts always say to hesitate at the catch until the whole paddle is in the water before pulling back and unwinding the rotation> and with this statement I am slightly lost -- sorry, LH! Surely, if one hesitates when placing blade into watery stuff, then one is totally and momentarily applying <drag> to the picture -- ie, totally counter-productive? If the blade is not moving backwards, then it is acting as a speed brake -- has to be!

If I may interpret the lovely and talented (and fast!) Lisa, I think she meant that the experts leave their paddle loose in the water for that instant before it is fully buried. They do not apply forward (toward the bow) pressure to brake the boat. Instead the paddle rides ever so slightly backwards (toward the stern) for the ever so slight moment before applying sternward pressure. Or more precisely, the not-yet-fully-buried blade stays stationary in the water while the boat moves ever so slightly past it.

There's obviously a tradeoff there, but the experts are experts (and fast!) partly because they calculate and execute such tradeoffs more skillfully than us ordinary paddlers.

So, Sir Godfrey, you may have experienced a perverse image of the racer actually working to slow their boat down. But I think you should be a tad more charitable to your betters, that they might know whereof they speak, and imagine a more plausible interpretation of their -- thankfully brief -- description. And I do apologize for being far more wordy than Lisa, but when charitable imagination fails, perhaps detailed explanations become necessary.

--David

[leong]

If I may interpret the lovely and talented (and fast!) Lisa, I think she meant that the experts leave their paddle loose in the water for that instant before it is fully buried. They do not apply forward (toward the bow) pressure to brake the boat. Instead the paddle rides ever so slightly backwards (toward the stern) for the ever so slight moment before applying sternward pressure. Or more precisely, the not-yet-fully-buried blade stays stationary in the water while the boat moves ever so slightly past it.

There's obviously a tradeoff there, but the experts are experts (and fast!) partly because they calculate and execute such tradeoffs more skillfully than us ordinary paddlers.

So, Sir Godfrey, you may have experienced a perverse image of the racer actually working to slow their boat down. But I think you should be a tad more charitable to your betters, that they might know whereof they speak, and imagine a more plausible interpretation of their -- thankfully brief -- description. And I do apologize for being far more wordy than Lisa, but when charitable imagination fails, perhaps detailed explanations become necessary.

--David

Oh, faw gawds sake, David, read the whole post and especially the link to this http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/8532-to-pause-or-not-to-pause/?hl=pause. It’s all been explained over and over and over and …

[djlewis]

Oh, faw gawds sake, David, read the whole post and especially the link to this http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/8532-to-pause-or-not-to-pause/?hl=pause. It’s all been explained over and over and over and …

Oh, faw gawds sake, David, read the whole post and especially the link to this http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/8532-to-pause-or-not-to-pause/?hl=pause. It’s all been explained over and over and over and …

He, Leon -- watsa problem? I agree with (and thought my post was consistent with) everything you say in your reference post save one point. For one, I called out, but did not specify, the tradeoff of the momentary pause that you so eloquently address in your post.

The only thing I might differ on is "your paddle is pushing in the wrong direction against the water for .088 feet (about 1 inch)". My experience is that you need not push in that teensy interval. If you leave your grip a tad loose for that instant, the paddle will just ride with the (apparent) current past the boat and neither brake nor propel. But I can see I might be wrong -- maybe better to push that inch so as to have an inch more when you do pull. I'll leave the tradeoffs at that level of detail to you speedy experts.

Anyway, my main target was Christopher -- and his ever-amusing style of calling anyone and everyone publicly on their foibles -- who was being a bit foible-ish himself in assuming there had to be braking. But hey, maybe I'm the foiblisher.

That's all -- no need to get hot under the neck gasket. Are you still in Fla, where it's pretty hot to start with? Hope to see you soon for summertime paddlin (

)

Peace. --David.

[leong]

He, Leon -- watsa problem? I agree with (and thought my post was consistent with) everything you say in your reference post save one point. For one, I called out, but did not specify, the tradeoff of the momentary pause that you so eloquently address in your post.

Peace. --David.

No problem, David. It's just frustration. I've been trying to end the "pause" side issue in this thread for ages because: 1. it never belonged here in the first place, it’s a "wing thread" and 2. it's a redundant rehashing of things already discussed in the more recently started “pause” thread. I woke up this thread for one and only one reason: to acknowledge that Lisa was spot-on (according to John Winters) when she said why the paddle moves a little forward at the beginning of the stroke. Next time I’ll congratulate her privately.

I hope this thread is now dead except for questions and comments about wing paddles, like Beth’s very appropriate post.

Yeah, I’m still suffering in FL. It was cool and windy today (73 degrees and NE wind about 18 knots). Tomorrow it’s supposed to warm up.

Peace

Leon

PS

Sir Christopher is one fine gentlemen and sea kayaker.