Benefits of Wing paddles

[Gcosloy]

Why use a wing paddle if you have no interest in racing or even fitness training in a kayak. I don't know and so decided to find out by trying it. Previously I had borrowed one on the water and spent no more than 20 minutes with one which gave me a hint of what they are about but not so much. Saturday in Ipswich Bay I used one exclusively for 3.5 to 4 hours, paddling at a moderate rate, sometimes trying to sprint for a bit but no real stress. While the paddle behaved in such a way as to be an instructor on the water as to guiding and enforcing an efficient forward stoke, and I think this is its main advantage, I wasn't aware of any real difference in what muscle groups were being employed until the next morning. Obliques big time, lats more so, quads, biceps and forearms a bit more. All the other muscle groups seemed to be used similarly to employing a conventional paddle. So I think it is true that using the wing does promote torso rotation where the oblique muscle groups come into play. Just to round out this review the wing does have some limitations: rolling is not fool proof, the angle of attack or sweet spot is much smaller and high bracing is out and sweeps are only half hearted, the paddle pops up and out at your hips. Bow and stern rudders are good and so is low bracing. Draw strokes are OK and you can scull with the back side of the blade. (This might be a better way to roll with the wing as well.) Anyway just one paddlers's one day's paddling experience. I'm sure others may confirm or deny. It's two days hence now and my obliques are still stiff.

[Doug]

Why use a wing paddle if you have no interest in racing or even fitness training in a kayak. I don't know and so decided to find out by trying it. Previously I had borrowed one on the water and spent no more than 20 minutes with one which gave me a hint of what they are about but not so much. Saturday in Ipswich Bay I used one exclusively for 3.5 to 4 hours, paddling at a moderate rate, sometimes trying to sprint for a bit but no real stress. While the paddle behaved in such a way as to be an instructor on the water as to guiding and enforcing an efficient forward stoke, and I think this is its main advantage, I wasn't aware of any real difference in what muscle groups were being employed until the next morning. Obliques big time, lats more so, quads, biceps and forearms a bit more. All the other muscle groups seemed to be used similarly to employing a conventional paddle. So I think it is true that using the wing does promote torso rotation where the oblique muscle groups come into play. Just to round out this review the wing does have some limitations: rolling is not fool proof, the angle of attack or sweet spot is much smaller and high bracing is out and sweeps are only half hearted, the paddle pops up and out at your hips. Bow and stern rudders are good and so is low bracing. Draw strokes are OK and you can scull with the back side of the blade. (This might be a better way to roll with the wing as well.) Anyway just one paddlers's one day's paddling experience. I'm sure others may confirm or deny. It's two days hence now and my obliques are still stiff.

Did your boat go faster with the same effort?

If not, why bother using one?

I personally like them and find I can average a 10-20% increase in speed but as you mention in your review, you give up a lot of efficient stroke flexibility for that increase. It's certainly more of a work out given the high angle and stroke path but unless your purpose is to train or race, why bother, unless like me, you enjoy implementing the use and feel of different paddles periodically. It's fun to compare a variety of strokes with blades that are non-conforming. It simply keeps things interesting. Once in a while we like to step out of our sedans and jump into a sports car. It's our nature.

Ask the "Swearing Ferret"....

[Gcosloy]

Did your boat go faster with the same effort?

If not, why bother using one?

I personally like them and find I can average a 10-20% increase in speed but as you mention in your review, you give up a lot of efficient stroke flexibility for that increase. It's certainly more of a work out given the high angle and stroke path but unless your purpose is to train or race, why bother, unless like me, you enjoy implementing the use and feel of different paddles periodically. It's fun to compare a variety of strokes with blades that are non-conforming. It simply keeps things interesting. Once in a while we like to step out of our sedans and jump into a sports car. It's our nature.

Ask the "Swearing Ferret"....

I really couldn't tell if I was any faster but I liked the fact that my forward stroke almost automatically became better as if an invisible hand guided the paddle for me. The other benefit as I already mentioned is increased use of obliques which may have benefits in speed later. So maybe I like the training effect which the wing seems to provide. I think I'll know more with more use.

[Lbeale]

I really couldn't tell if I was any faster but I liked the fact that my forward stroke almost automatically became better as if an invisible hand guided the paddle for me. The other benefit as I already mentioned is increased use of obliques which may have benefits in speed later. So maybe I like the training effect which the wing seems to provide. I think I'll know more with more use.

Gene,

All I can tell you is that its more to do with your stroke than the paddle. If you have an efficient forward stroke the wing paddle will help you-- if you have a not so efficient stroke --the wing paddle will make little or no difference. It takes awhile to get the "hang" of it--but I only paddle with the wing these days --

Les

AKA Swearing Ferret

[leong]

Why use a wing paddle if you have no interest in racing or even fitness training in a kayak. I don't know and so decided to find out by trying it. Previously I had borrowed one on the water and spent no more than 20 minutes with one which gave me a hint of what they are about but not so much. Saturday in Ipswich Bay I used one exclusively for 3.5 to 4 hours, paddling at a moderate rate, sometimes trying to sprint for a bit but no real stress. While the paddle behaved in such a way as to be an instructor on the water as to guiding and enforcing an efficient forward stoke, and I think this is its main advantage, I wasn't aware of any real difference in what muscle groups were being employed until the next morning. Obliques big time, lats more so, quads, biceps and forearms a bit more. All the other muscle groups seemed to be used similarly to employing a conventional paddle. So I think it is true that using the wing does promote torso rotation where the oblique muscle groups come into play. Just to round out this review the wing does have some limitations: rolling is not fool proof, the angle of attack or sweet spot is much smaller and high bracing is out and sweeps are only half hearted, the paddle pops up and out at your hips. Bow and stern rudders are good and so is low bracing. Draw strokes are OK and you can scull with the back side of the blade. (This might be a better way to roll with the wing as well.) Anyway just one paddlers's one day's paddling experience. I'm sure others may confirm or deny. It's two days hence now and my obliques are still stiff.

I’ve been using a wing paddle for the last seven years, almost exclusively for the last two years. The reasoning behind the wing paddle is supposed to be that propulsive forces can be produced more effectively (and perhaps with less physiological cost) by using lift forces (at right angles to the direction of flow) rather than drag forces (in the direction of flow). Various articles found on the Internet (for example http://www.archronicles.com/3004.htm) conclude “You will see a 7-10% increase in boat speed from the same effort over a conventional paddle.†This may be extremely optimistic (perhaps it’s true for arm-only paddlers since the wing almost forces trunk rotation). For myself the speed advantage is more limited.

Although I have no way to measure my output power versus speed with a wing paddle versus the same with a conventional flat paddle, I can do all-out sprints and see how fast I can go. For short sprints on a calm lake I find about a 1% – 2% increase in speed at perceived maximum effort (maximum power). For long distances on the ocean, such as the 19+ mile Blackburn Challenge, the variable sea and wind conditions, and my condition for that day, completely obscure any measurable speed advantage of the wing paddle. That is, for the Blackburn Challenge, I still don’t know whether I do better with the wing or not. I suspect that there is some advantage, and to put my money where my belief is I do use the wing in that race every year. Curiously however, my record time for the Blackburn circuit (not in an actual race) was 3:13 with a flat paddle and 3:19 (also not in a race) with a wing paddle a year later. Of course, the conditions were different as they always are on the ocean.

Anyway, notwithstanding my inability to quantify the advantages of the wing paddle for distance racing, I just like the feel of the wing paddle. Here are the reasons why I think the wing provides a more efficient forward stroke:

1. Mathematical modeling has indicated that less energy is transferred to the water and wasted by a wing blade moving diagonally from the kayak than a conventional blade moving parallel to it [see Jackson, P.S. (1995). Performance prediction for Olympic Kayaks. Journal of Sport Sciences)].

2. Lateral motions at entry and exit of the wing blade assist in rounding out the motions of the forward stroke; i.e. it is less costly to keep things moving.

3. The time and distance of effective pull with the wing is larger. With a conventional blade pulling parallel to the kayak there is no propulsive force until the blade moves backwards with respect to the water. With a wing blade the initial side motion provides lift, which provides a propulsive force. And of course with a wing the effective distance of pull is greater since the blade moves diagonally.

4. The wing blade technique may allow the blade to maintain a more vertical orientation than the conventional blade technique. This would maximize the component of force in the forward direction compared to components in the upward or downward direction.

5. Finally, lateral motions of the wing blade are produced more naturally by the body than parallel motions with a conventional blade.

[leong]

With all this talk about paddle strokes, rotation, etc. in the two threads titled “Paddle Stroke Question” and “Forward Stroke” I thought that this was a good time to expand the topic and bring forward a related topic from this thread on the “Benefits of Wing Paddles”.

While watching me on the water, many non-wing paddlers have questioned me on why I move my wing paddle so far out laterally on my forward stroke. I try to plant close to the hull for the catch and for the entire stroke, my paddle moves sideways as well as backwards with respect to the boat (probably about 12 to 15 inches to the side by the time it exits). Some have told me it would be more efficient if I moved it parallel to the boat first and then, just prior to exit, move it out to the side for the exit. This is counter to what I have learned by watching world class paddlers in races, taking lessons from two Olympic paddlers (one being a mini lesson by Barton before the Blackburn years ago) and reading lots of articles about the mechanics of paddling.

It’s been lousy weather here the last few days and, therefore, instead of my normal day out on the water, I’ve been reading journal articles about kayak racing, boats, etc. and just hanging around this bulletin board (This will be rectified tomorrow with a light training paddle before Saturday’s race).

Anyway I just read an interesting article called “Evolution of Technique in Flatwater Kayaking”, by R. Sanders and J. Baker. The former is from “School of Biomedical and Sports Sciences” and the later from “”Institute of Sports”, both in Australia

Attached is a scan of a figure from the article. It shows the center path and orientation of the movement of a wing paddle in the hands of a world-class racer. It shows that the paddle gradually move laterally along a curve throughout the paddle stroke. The article doesn’t mention the frame of reference, but I’m sure it’s not on the moving kayak, otherwise the paddle would be moving backwards throughout the stroke. I think it’s from a fixed frame of reference so you can think of it as a view from a stationary helicopter hovering above the water. Anyway, let me know if you have another interpretation about the frame of reference. I'm amazed that the paddle has any forward motion at all prior to exit. I wonder if this is because the "lift" of the wing sucks the paddle forward in the water?

But, the point is that you can see that the paddle gradually and continually moves out laterally and ends up about 16 inches to the left of the entry point. And, no, I have no illusions that my stroke is even approaching optimal. But I’m still learning.

[lhunt]

I'm amazed that the paddle has any forward motion at all prior to exit.

I think that probably the first mark is when the paddle first starts to enter the water, and for the first couple of marks only a little of the paddle is in the water. So it isn't doing much and hence moves forward with the boat. The experts always say to hesitate at the catch until the whole paddle is in the water before pulling back and unwinding the rotation, so that may be what we're seeing. Once it gets a good grab he pulls it so it goes stationary and the boat moves past it. Notice that the dots are closer together during the pullback. Then, once it's not being pulled on and is well on its way to exiting it moves forward again, with the boat.

It really shows why the pros put so much emphasis on getting a good fast catch and exit - your paddle is working against you for a brief time then.

[leong]

I think that probably the first mark is when the paddle first starts to enter the water, and for the first couple of marks only a little of the paddle is in the water. So it isn't doing much and hence moves forward with the boat. The experts always say to hesitate at the catch until the whole paddle is in the water before pulling back and unwinding the rotation, so that may be what we're seeing. Once it gets a good grab he pulls it so it goes stationary and the boat moves past it. Notice that the dots are closer together during the pullback. Then, once it's not being pulled on and is well on its way to exiting it moves forward again, with the boat.

It really shows why the pros put so much emphasis on getting a good fast catch and exit - your paddle is working against you for a brief time then.

Hmm, back to the past.

That was a good analysis, Lisa. I just read the following by John Winters and it confirms your answer.

“Casual observation might lead to the conclusion that the paddle does not move aft since sometimes it exits the water forward of the insertion point. To understand what happens we have to observe the stroke carefully, not only relative to the water but relative to the boat. As, the paddle velocity through the water slows at the end of the stroke the boat does not slow and drags the paddle along with it. Meanwhile eddies created by the paddle continue to travel aft. As a result the paddle may exit at or forward of its insertion point, the eddies giving the impression that it never moved aft. The existence of eddies however provide convincing proof that the paddle moves aft. This dragging forward of the paddle at the end of the stroke acts as a break and should be minimized or eliminated where possible.”

-Leon

[Pintail]

This thread started with Gene stating that he had been wondering about the benefits of using the wing paddle and he wrote that he had tried to investigate -- fine. Someone then asked if his forward speed had improved and if not, then why bother using a wing? I find that an unproductive question, since Gene had already answered it in his intro...

Then Lisa wrote this among her sensible response: <The experts always say to hesitate at the catch until the whole paddle is in the water before pulling back and unwinding the rotation> and with this statement I am slightly lost -- sorry, LH! Surely, if one hesitates when placing blade into watery stuff, then one is totally and momentarily applying <drag> to the picture -- ie, totally counter-productive? If the blade is not moving backwards, then it is acting as a speed brake -- has to be!

I would have thought that the catch is the entire crux of the stroke -- getting that blade submersed <and working> as soon as possible? I think that using the word "hesitation" may be off-putting for most people or learners, Lisa?

Interesting thread! Thanks, Gene.

[Doug]

"This thread started with Gene stating that he had been wondering about the benefits of using the wing paddle and he wrote that he had tried to investigate -- fine. Someone then asked if his forward speed had improved and if not, then why bother using a wing? I find that an unproductive question, since Gene had already answered it in his intro"... Pintail

Christopher, "unproductive question"? Gene stated that more energy & effort went into using the wing and in fact his muscles were sore the next day. He never said he was faster and in fact he mentioned many paddle strokes and braces and rolling, to him were hindered. He owns a wing now and I've never seen him use it the past 2 years. I think be bought mine, which by the way I wish I had kept. The only unproductive statement here was you saying that my response was. Get it!

[leong]

This thread started with Gene stating that he had been wondering about the benefits of using the wing paddle and he wrote that he had tried to investigate -- fine. Someone then asked if his forward speed had improved and if not, then why bother using a wing? I find that an unproductive question, since Gene had already answered it in his intro...

Then Lisa wrote this among her sensible response: <The experts always say to hesitate at the catch until the whole paddle is in the water before pulling back and unwinding the rotation> and with this statement I am slightly lost -- sorry, LH! Surely, if one hesitates when placing blade into watery stuff, then one is totally and momentarily applying <drag> to the picture -- ie, totally counter-productive? If the blade is not moving backwards, then it is acting as a speed brake -- has to be!

I would have thought that the catch is the entire crux of the stroke -- getting that blade submersed <and working> as soon as possible? I think that using the word "hesitation" may be off-putting for most people or learners, Lisa?

Interesting thread! Thanks, Gene.

Sir Pintail,

You're right, there definitely is some initial drag. I think the initial drag is more than compensated for by the increase in stroke length with a fully submerged paddle. I (and others) beat this topic to death here --> http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/8532-to-pause-or-not-to-pause/

Respectfully,

Leon

[leong]

"This thread started with Gene stating that he had been wondering about the benefits of using the wing paddle and he wrote that he had tried to investigate -- fine. Someone then asked if his forward speed had improved and if not, then why bother using a wing? I find that an unproductive question, since Gene had already answered it in his intro"... Pintail

Christopher, "unproductive question"? Gene stated that more energy & effort went into using the wing and in fact his muscles were sore the next day. He never said he was faster and in fact he mentioned many paddle strokes and braces and rolling, to him were hindered. He owns a wing now and I've never seen him use it the past 2 years. I think be bought mine, which by the way I wish I had kept. The only unproductive statement here was you saying that my response was. Get it!

Doug,

Careful now, you may not have meant it that way, but this could be construed as an insult. We’re all friends here.

CAM-able Leon

[lhunt]

Surely, if one hesitates when placing blade into watery stuff, then one is totally and momentarily applying <drag> to the picture -- ie, totally counter-productive? If the blade is not moving backwards, then it is acting as a speed brake -- has to be!

Yes, I agree. I don't know, Christopher - I'm learning, too! It takes microseconds to get that paddle all the way in, and there's not much feedback as to exactly where you are.

Still, if you check these two pages, you see, that's what they say. (Search for "salmon" in the first one, and "catch" in the second one.) Here, Brent Reitz clarifies that it's a pause with the torso, not the hands. That actually makes sense - gives you the best of both worlds.

-Lisa

[EEL]

Lisa:

I did not look at the pages, but isn't the whole pause "thing" just a way to get people to think about putting the blade fully in the water before applying power by unwinding the torso? Seems to me it is not plant blade, pause, apply power, but rather wait to apply power once blade planted. So the action might be quite fluid and continuous when done properly. Perhaps the concept of "pause" is more a something to present for teaching proper stroke mechanics than a description of proper stroke mechanics. Although I guess there would be a very slight pause in torso rotation as the blade is planted, but, as you say, very, very short and suspect more perceptible by the paddler than the observer unless exaggerated for teaching.

Ed Lawson

[leong]

Lisa:

I did not look at the pages, but isn't the whole pause "thing" just a way to get people to think about putting the blade fully in the water before applying power by unwinding the torso? Seems to me it is not plant blade, pause, apply power, but rather wait to apply power once blade planted. So the action might be quite fluid and continuous when done properly. Perhaps the concept of "pause" is more a something to present for teaching proper stroke mechanics than a description of proper stroke mechanics. Although I guess there would be a very slight pause in torso rotation as the blade is planted, but, as you say, very, very short and suspect more perceptible by the paddler than the observer unless exaggerated for teaching.

Ed Lawson

Ed,

The pause during the spear is beat to death here http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/8532-to-pause-or-not-to-pause/

[lhunt]

Lisa:

I did not look at the pages, but isn't the whole pause "thing" just a way to get people to think about putting the blade fully in the water before applying power by unwinding the torso? Seems to me it is not plant blade, pause, apply power, but rather wait to apply power once blade planted. So the action might be quite fluid and continuous when done properly. Perhaps the concept of "pause" is more a something to present for teaching proper stroke mechanics than a description of proper stroke mechanics. Although I guess there would be a very slight pause in torso rotation as the blade is planted, but, as you say, very, very short and suspect more perceptible by the paddler than the observer unless exaggerated for teaching.

Ed Lawson

The significant paragraph is:

A tip to think about getting the “pause” going to your advantage, is to really not think of it like “a pause” with anything other than Your Torso….The Hands, Shaft, Blade…everything else keeps moving on a constant, but you need to hold-back the recoil of The Torso a split second, to allow the all of Those Other Moving Parts enough time to engage with the water fully…Specifically burying the blade fully and as far forward as is natually possible. The Torso-Pause may come to you easier if you think about the movement in these terms.

-Brent Reitz

The pause is during the plant, not before or after. The new point here (to me) is that you keep your arms moving to avoid braking, but you don't start to use up the powerful but precious few inches that you can get out of your torso until you have full engagement of the paddle.

So I'm mostly in agreement with you. I don't think it's just a psychological thing, it's mechanical. But I do agree that it's subtle, that the pause in torso rotation is very short, and that you "wait to apply power until paddle is planted".

[rfolster]

Lisa and Leon, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the idea of the "pause" in it's most simplest form is the amount of time it takes between the paddle blade being partially submerged to being completely submerged at the beginning of a stroke. This might be one tenth of a second, or some other unperceivable amount of time, but the concept is that the stroke needs to "pause" for that fraction of time in order to ensure that the paddle is fully submerged before the force on the paddle is applied to continue the stroke.

Cathy and I have found some videos on line when this first came up, and we could not actually see the pause, even when they demonstrated before and after effects. It is extremely subtle and part of a larger system of advanced techniques to further refine and improve the forward stroke.

Does that help or hinder?

As for creating drag by moving the paddle forward with the boat while the paddle is being inserted (again, for a fraction of a second), I have to pose this to the smarter (than me) people here: When you put the paddle into the water at the beginning of the stroke, you are aiming for the water near your toes. That places the paddle at a significant angle to the water, not vertically. As you lower the paddle into the water, are you not cutting the blade into the water with a diagonal motion that (in theory) creates no strictly forward movement, and therefore no forward drag?

Picture paddling across ice. As you break the surface with the tip of the paddle, you create a slot that you keep inserting your paddle into until it is fully inserted and you can apply force to the paddle to move you forward. Since you are inserting the paddle at an angle in front of you, you can only do this if your boat, yourself, and the paddle are moving forward to allow you to put more of the blade through the ice. You do not want to waste energy pulling the partially inserted paddle through unbroken ice, and you also don't want to try to break any ice in front of the paddle as well as that would just slow you down. Just slide the paddle into the "slot" created by the tip of the blade, and wait until you have the full blade inserted into the water until you draw the stroke back.

Does that make sense, or am I totally off?

[leong]

The significant paragraph is:

The pause is during the plant, not before or after. The new point here (to me) is that you keep your arms moving to avoid braking, but you don't start to use up the powerful but precious few inches that you can get out of your torso until you have full engagement of the paddle.

So I'm mostly in agreement with you. I don't think it's just a psychological thing, it's mechanical. But I do agree that it's subtle, that the pause in torso rotation is very short, and that you "wait to apply power until paddle is planted".

I don’t like Reitz’s explanation. In effect, he saying that you use your arms (unassisted by torso rotation) to pull back the blade the same distance (say it’s d-inches) that the kayak coasts until the blade is fully submerged. Anything less than d-inches would imply breaking. Therefore, you’ve lost d-inches of powerful torso pull. There's no free lunch.

[lhunt]

...I think that the idea of the "pause" in it's most simplest form is the amount of time it takes between the paddle blade being partially submerged to being completely submerged at the beginning of a stroke. This might be one tenth of a second, or some other unperceivable amount of time, but the concept is that the stroke needs to "pause" for that fraction of time in order to ensure that the paddle is fully submerged before the force on the paddle is applied to continue the stroke.

Pretty much, yes. But the only part of the stroke that is "pausing" is the tension on the torso. The arms can start the stroke for that fraction of a second to allow the boat to move past the paddle a tiny bit.

Cathy and I have found some videos on line when this first came up, and we could not actually see the pause, even when they demonstrated before and after effects. It is extremely subtle and part of a larger system of advanced techniques to further refine and improve the forward stroke.

Definitely hard to see, if the only difference is in whether the paddler's core muscles are tensed up or not. Watching the arm, you would see only a little slowing down of the backwards motion, but it would still be going very fast downwards.

When you put the paddle into the water at the beginning of the stroke, you are aiming for the water near your toes. That places the paddle at a significant angle to the water, not vertically. As you lower the paddle into the water, are you not cutting the blade into the water with a diagonal motion that (in theory) creates no strictly forward movement, and therefore no forward drag?

Not sure on this count. Seems like there should be some braking motion, even if somewhat reduced by the angle. They do say that the first part of the stroke, down near your toes, is the most powerful. That implies to me that the angle isn't as disadvantageous as you might think. (Also, that's why your arms should be quite straight when planting the paddle - to keep it as vertical as possible).

It's an interesting point, however, that maybe the rounded back of a wing paddle can reduce the braking motion if you do pause your arms as well as torso. Hmmm....

Picture paddling across ice. As you break the surface with the tip of the paddle, you create a slot that you keep inserting your paddle into until it is fully inserted and you can apply force to the paddle to move you forward. Since you are inserting the paddle at an angle in front of you, you can only do this if your boat, yourself, and the paddle are moving forward to allow you to put more of the blade through the ice. You do not want to waste energy pulling the partially inserted paddle through unbroken ice, and you also don't want to try to break any ice in front of the paddle as well as that would just slow you down.

Um, well yes, mostly. If the boat and yourself are moving forward, then your paddle will seem to move backwards a little relative to the boat and yourself, right? I mean, if it's really in ice :-) So your hand has to keep moving it back a little. I think the point is to let it go a little backwards but not use your tummy muscles to really ram it back until it's all the way in there. Which is pretty much what you said, so I'm agreeing.

[lhunt]

...In effect, he saying that you use your arms (unassisted by torso rotation) to pull back the blade the same distance (say it’s d-inches) that the kayak coasts until the blade is fully submerged. Anything less than d-inches would imply breaking. Therefore, you’ve lost d-inches of powerful torso pull. There's no free lunch.

I think the implication is that your arms move further than your torso anyway. You lock your arms to use your torso, right? So you use your arms in the very very beginning for a tiny bit until you have a good grip, then you lock them and add in all your torso motion, maybe a little extra with the arms after that (if you haven't reached the exit point yet), then you exit and wind up for the other side.

In other words, if you are going to add any arm movement to your torso movement, make sure some of it is in the beginning when the paddle isn't efficiently placed yet to override the braking. You use the torso during the most powerful part of the stroke, which is in the very beginning, but not so far in the beginning that the paddle isn't completely wet.

It's all theoretical, of course. This is the first time I saw that thing about the torso pause, and I like it better than what I was trying to do before. Going to give it a try as soon as the river is navigable...

Lisa

[leong]

Lisa and Leon, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the idea of the "pause" in it's most simplest form is the amount of time it takes between the paddle blade being partially submerged to being completely submerged at the beginning of a stroke. This might be one tenth of a second, or some other unperceivable amount of time, but the concept is that the stroke needs to "pause" for that fraction of time in order to ensure that the paddle is fully submerged before the force on the paddle is applied to continue the stroke.

Cathy and I have found some videos on line when this first came up, and we could not actually see the pause, even when they demonstrated before and after effects. It is extremely subtle and part of a larger system of advanced techniques to further refine and improve the forward stroke.

Does that help or hinder?

As for creating drag by moving the paddle forward with the boat while the paddle is being inserted (again, for a fraction of a second), I have to pose this to the smarter (than me) people here: When you put the paddle into the water at the beginning of the stroke, you are aiming for the water near your toes. That places the paddle at a significant angle to the water, not vertically. As you lower the paddle into the water, are you not cutting the blade into the water with a diagonal motion that (in theory) creates no strictly forward movement, and therefore no forward drag?

Picture paddling across ice. As you break the surface with the tip of the paddle, you create a slot that you keep inserting your paddle into until it is fully inserted and you can apply force to the paddle to move you forward. Since you are inserting the paddle at an angle in front of you, you can only do this if your boat, yourself, and the paddle are moving forward to allow you to put more of the blade through the ice. You do not want to waste energy pulling the partially inserted paddle through unbroken ice, and you also don't want to try to break any ice in front of the paddle as well as that would just slow you down. Just slide the paddle into the "slot" created by the tip of the blade, and wait until you have the full blade inserted into the water until you draw the stroke back.

Does that make sense, or am I totally off?

It makes sense up to a point. But remember, unless the paddle blade is horizontal, there is always some backwards force on the blade, just not as much as if the blade was vertical.

Gotta, go now, my lunch break is over and my boat is waiting.

Leon

PS

This is how I yearn to paddle

[leong]

This is the first time I saw that thing about the torso pause, and I like it better than what I was trying to do before. Going to give it a try as soon as the river is navigable...

Lisa

Look here http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/8532-to-pause-or-not-to-pause/ at post # 10 and you'll see the torso pause.

[leong]

Okay, I had a great paddling workout today (6 miles up and 6 miles back in a fast tidal flow with and against a 17-knot wind). Unlike many racers that train with music to keep their cadence up, sometimes I just daydream; today the daydream was about NSPN posts. What came to mind about NSPN postings reminded me of the following well-worn story:

"You sit in a circle with a group of people and one person whispers a phrase to the person next to him or her. Then, each person keeps whispering the phrase around the circle until it reaches the last person, who repeats the whispered statement out loud. What started out as "Pizza tastes great" can end up as "Pete's a great ape!""

Anyway, the rebirth of this old 2010 post by Gene about the benefits of wing paddles came about only because I wanted to give Lisa credit for correctly analyzing why a paddle moves forward with respect to the water at the instant of blade entry. I added it on that day because I had just read in a chapter of The Shape of the Canoe, by John Winters that validated what Lisa had posted. I’m not complaining, but I think that should have ended it.

After my post responding to Lisa, the thread turned into a long discussion about the why’s, how’s and merits of the pause during the paddle entry. This very same topic was beat to death in my posted topic (Oh, did I forget to mention it?) “To Pause or not to Pause” at http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/8532-to-pause-or-not-to-pause/?hl=pause (that thread was much more recent than Gene’s thread). Any casual review of the “To Pause or not to Pause” thread will show that almost no value has been added to the topic in this current thread.

A Couple of Conclusions:

1. People (I’m not leaving myself out here) post without a careful reading of what they’re responding to. A classic example of this is Ern’s recent thread titled “Yucking it up…” http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/9155-yucking-it-up/. Ern was soliciting ideas for kayaking trips between Cancun and Playa del Carmen on the Yuckatan peninsula of Mexico. Most of the resulting suggestions were for paddling trips on the Baha (just a short 2,000 miles away!) and lots of discussion about BCU 5-star paddlers. Methinks some didn’t carefully read Ern’s initial post.
2. Topics seem to change on purpose (hijacking threads). That’s okay I guess. But when the topic has already been discussed in another thread wouldn’t it be better to add the new value there?

Respectfully,

CAM-able Leon

[Phil Allen]

Good thoughts Leon. And with tongue firmly in cheek, I point out that the title of the thread has nothing to do with your post. Sometimes conversations roam where they roam, human intentions be dammed. ;-)

best

Phil

[leong]

Good thoughts Leon. And with tongue firmly in cheek, I point out that the title of the thread has nothing to do with your post. Sometimes conversations roam where they roam, human intentions be dammed. ;-)

best

Phil

Yes, I know that I'm off-topic. But I think it’s allowed for a metapost. But your meta-metapost, I just don't know...

Leon