Who are we?..... really

[jeffcasey]

Wow, man, deja vu all over again.

At the risk of taking on the thankless role of explainer....we've been here before. The club has a long and illustrious history. We've been a disorganized and happy anarchy of show-n-go trips (basically a bulletin board for hooking up paddlers). We've been a formal organization with leaders, training programs, classes, liability waivers, and graduation parties. We've been a gathering place for loosely organized CAM model trips. We've hired shrinks and lawyers to analyze our interactions and advise us how to change things. We've been all over the map, actually.

All the organization methods have positive aspects, and they all have negative ones too. Similarly, there are folks who could care less and just want to paddle, and there are folks who have strong feelings about what model we should organize under.

There are common themes....

....there are a number of excellent people who seem to be always willing to teach, to work at the pool and lake sessions on skills, to lead easier trips, and to mentor folks to improve their skills and safety. this would be a good thing.

....there are also a number of excellent people who have become burnt out on the political changes that come every year or two....and it seems like everytime the winds change, we lose one or two more. this would be a bad thing.

We seem to be in a quiet period now, with happy paddlers and few bad vibes (or perhaps I'm too out of the loop to hear them). I'd tend not to rock the boat. Let's not be anxious to change things.... There is nothing that prevents L2 trips from happening.

If you are the exemplified L2 paddler who wants a trip at so-and-so, but doesn't feel comfortable calling it, try posting just that on the trip website -- ask for one or two of the more experienced brethren to help you out, and in turn you'll keep track of any logistics that need tracking and bring lunch or something. This is a big informal friendly group....but the old farts tend to have a lot of inertia, so mix it up a bit.

- Jeff Casey (another aspiring "intermediate paddler")

[gyork]

If you are the exemplified L2 paddler who wants a trip at so-and-so, but doesn't feel comfortable calling it, try posting just that on the trip website -- ask for one or two of the more experienced brethren to help you out, and in turn you'll keep track of any logistics that need tracking and bring lunch or something.

- Jeff Casey (another aspiring "intermediate paddler")

A grand idea. I suppose that there are many "newer" paddlers in the club following the message boards, hoping to join in on just the right posted trip. Jeff's suggestion to be proactive makes sense, as most of us respond well to requests for help. Introduce yourself publicly on the boards, state your trip venue wishes (lake, river, open/protected ocean) and see how many trip ideas pop up.

gary

[Gcosloy]

I suggest Candide's conclusion that "we must cultivate our garden" is perhaps a more productive view than Dr. Pangloss's rote optimism.

Ed Lawson

I take it Ed that like Voltaire you have little love for the philosophy of Dr. Leibnitz. Unlike Voltaire I offered that phrase without the slightest bit of sarcasm. But I take your point as well.

[gerry s]

I agree with Jeff Casey. This is deja vu all over again. As an "old fart" (but not charter member) of NSPN I am very grateful for all I learned from other members (pass it forward).

My second year of paddling, with very limited skills, on an NSPN trip was an education in "what I know now I wish I'd known then" but I probably would not have gone out with them had I known. There was a casual but thorough beach briefing mostly to get everyone focused on the route, expectations, and proper equipment. The was no discussion about level 123 etc. I felt welcomed and accepted as part of the group. On the last mile of our trip the conditions deteriorated and as a newbie I had not checked the weather or sea state. I take responsibility for myself and didn't expect "to be taken care of" but certainly felt comfort in the fact that there were more experienced paddlers with me. The head winds kicked up to probably 20-25 but for me seemed like a 100 mph with the rain horizontal and hurting if you looked up and what seemed like 3-5 wind chop. I paddled in survival mode for that mile but will never forget the encouraging words from fellow paddlers as we slowly made headway back to our put-in.

My point is that back then there didn't appear to be much emphasis on paddling level, liability, experience, etc. but just on paddling and having fun and meeting people. This is the "feeling" now exhibited with the Meet-Up Group and with SMSKN but not so much with NSPN. With both groups there are all level of paddlers on all trips.

I am forever grateful for the training and experience I gained through NSPN. I think NSPN does a superb job of offering workshops, promoting safe paddling, skills sessions, etc. Perhaps this is also it nemesis or apparent high level experience perception.

Maybe change is not needed. There are many clubs and Meet-Up type groups that offer paddling opportunities for all levels. Perhaps the training, workshops, skill sessions, etc that NSPN offers are what the club is all about. Nothing wrong with that.

Life's to short.....let's just paddle!

[spuglisi]

I agree with Jeff Casey. This is deja vu all over again. As an "old fart" (but not charter member) of NSPN I am very grateful for all I learned from other members (pass it forward).

My second year of paddling, with very limited skills, on an NSPN trip was an education in "what I know now I wish I'd known then" but I probably would not have gone out with them had I known. There was a casual but thorough beach briefing mostly to get everyone focused on the route, expectations, proper equipment and each other. There was no discussion about level 1,2,3 etc. I felt welcomed and accepted as part of the group. On the last mile of our trip the conditions deteriorated and as a newbie I had not checked the weather or sea state. I take responsibility for myself and didn't expect "to be taken care of" but certainly felt comfort in the fact that there were more experienced paddlers with me. The head winds kicked up to probably 20-25 but for me seemed like a 100 mph with the rain horizontal and hurting if you looked up and what seemed like 3-5 ft wind chop. I paddled in survival mode for that mile but will never forget the encouraging words from fellow paddlers as we slowly made headway back to our put-in.

My point is that back then there didn't appear to be much emphasis on paddling level, liability, experience, etc. but just on paddling and having fun and meeting people. This is the "feeling" now exhibited with the Meet-Up Groups and with SMSKN but not so much with NSPN. With both groups there are all level of paddlers on all trips.

I am forever grateful for the training and experience I gained through NSPN. I think NSPN does a superb job of offering workshops, promoting safe paddling, skills sessions, etc. Perhaps this is also it nemesis or apparent high level experience perception.

Maybe change is not needed. There are many clubs and Meet-Up type groups that offer paddling opportunities for all levels. Perhaps the training, workshops, skill sessions, etc that NSPN offers are what the club is all about. Nothing wrong with that.

Life's to short.....let's just paddle!

Wow! That really did seem like deja vu

[EEL]

Wow! That really did seem like deja vu

Now, now. You must expect us OFs to perseverate on occasion.

Perhaps some of Gerry's points need repeating too.

With regard to leading and who feels comfy doing so, I believe folks should use the term trip initiator as it more properly denotes the role and responsibility of those who post trips.

To me there are paddler skills associated with a given trip level and there are conditions associated with certain trip levels. These are distinct and separate. There can easily be paddlers with L4 skills who have no interest in paddling in L4 conditions. They may prefer journeys to interesting places or just enjoy being on the ocean. There can be athletic paddlers of very modest paddler skills who thrive in and relish difficult conditions. So to classify paddlers as this or that L something can be unhelpful. but I repeat myself.

Ed Lawson

[PeterB]

Hmmm ... SMSKN has lots of trips but no message board threads like these. The NH Meetup Group has lots of trips but no message board threads like these. So, just maybe the impediment to more paddling is.... message board threads like these, and the culture of introspection and hand-wringing that attends it.

The dirty little secret is that the experienced paddlers amongst us went out there and did it, probably made mistakes \, learned from those mistakes and went out there and did it again. The ocean is a great teacher.

[sidcohen]

The coast is a can be siren. As most of us know. I did the go out in rough conditions and I did make some mistakes, scary but fun. I did however have l lot of useful gear with me and on me, some training, and some hearty mates to support me.

Be Prepared.....yes I was a Boy Scout.

[Phil Allen]

Now, now. You must expect us OFs to perseverate on occasion.

Perhaps some of Gerry's points need repeating too.

Ed- I believe Sal was poking fun at the double post, not the content

With regard to leading and who feels comfy doing so, I believe folks should use the term trip initiator as it more properly denotes the role and responsibility of those who post trips.

To me there are paddler skills associated with a given trip level and there are conditions associated with certain trip levels. These are distinct and separate. There can easily be paddlers with L4 skills who have no interest in paddling in L4 conditions. They may prefer journeys to interesting places or just enjoy being on the ocean. There can be athletic paddlers of very modest paddler skills who thrive in and relish difficult conditions. So to classify paddlers as this or that L something can be unhelpful. but I repeat myself.

Ed Lawson

I think you nailed a common problem of perception. As paddlers, we have certain skills. Trips can be designed with certain conditions in mind, but not truly predicted in advance. Most of the time we find milder conditions than we might be looking for.

Another issue is that folks come to us from the ether (interweb, whatever) and therefore until they paddle with us they don't know how to interpret our descriptions of fast/slow, lumpy/flat etc. So they're afraid to step up and give it a go.

Phil

[Pintail]

Professor Casey and Gerry S are, of course, correct: this subject comes up with perennial regularity (perhaps bi-perennial?); but there are one or two small points that have not been mentioned.

Gail's experience concerning other groups (NESeacoast et al) surprises me <slightly> because I am not aware that other groups/clubs have ever tried to groom and <promote> "newbies" (excuse this terminology) in the way that NSPN <always> has (regardless of how some people might think differently) -- Bob Burnett's intention was <absolutely> two-fold: to unite paddlers looking to get out in a group of similarly-minded kayakers, looking to stretch themselves, AND to assist newer paddlers to learn in a safe and caring environment. Hence the "pass-it-forward" attitude (Adam Bolonsky may have coined that one -- I forget).

Do I feel free to put words or thoughts into the mouth of B? Assuredly so: he was <my> chief mentor and taught me much of what I know on the water. I felt completely safe under his aegis and so did others.

The political happenings to which Jeff refers are nothing more than a concern regarding legal liability: our trips used to be CAM (in practice) without being called that; then we went "for non-profit" and Scott Camlin started a trip leader training programme with, we thought, full insurance coverage from ACA -- and now we have come back to CAM after realizing that we <could> have been individually liable if anything terrible had occured -- in practice, this should mean little for newer paddlers, as long as beach briefings point out that we are all responsible for ourselves. It is an ATTITUDE thing...the more competent kayakers will still be there for the less-experienced...

I don't know if this says anything new; but I believe the question is not new or particularly important -- as long as we post trips and make newer paddlers welcome.

[Lallen]

Katherine,

I just want to clarify that like Bob, I too, said I wouldn't be comfortable leading/initiating a trip because of my own skill set. I haven't yet taken leadership training, and consider myself to be an intermediate paddler. But I am more than happy to help my fellow paddlers in any way I can-whether they be more or less experienced than me.

When Phil and I started paddling with NSPN a few years ago, we had done mostly Level 2 trips. The first trip we did with NSPN was a club organized trip around Crane's Beach, designated as a Level 2 trip. Knowing what to expect in terms of the distance and conditions was a great introduction for us. We then participated in a Level 2+ trip, handled it and felt more comfortable as we got to know people. We were at a point where we wanted to push our skills, and there were plenty of opportunities for us to do so with the club. We've both benefitted immensely from going out with different groups in different conditions. We've only been members for a few years, so we don't really know the difference between the "old" NSPN and "new" NSPN.

Welcome to the club-we look forward to paddling with you!

Lorrie

[David MC]

Interesting topic -- maybe just the fact that we're talking about it will produce desirable results for all, without reliving the past. As a "newer" paddler and member I've decided to "put myself out there" more this year.

Assessing your own skills, conditions, required gear/dress, and then matching them to the actual trip can be challenging for beginning paddlers moving into intermediate. I err on the side of safety, so I'm not in my boat as much as I'd like to be.

I also must say there HAVE been wonderful opportunities for 2 and 2+ trips initiated by NSPN L3 and L4 paddlers. Thank you! I went on a couple of these trips last year and the memories still bring a smile to my face. I'm a better paddler for the experience, AND we all had a great time too. It's great to put lakeside skill sessions to practical use.

Likewise, there should be no shame in wanting to do an L3/L4 trip. Let's just initiate posts accurately, be frank and open in our communication, and paddle!

[Gcosloy]

If in the 2009 season NSPN had awarded a prize for the paddler who initiated the most trips I hazard a guess I would have been the winner. I initiated maybe 20 trips most of which were posted on the NSPN message board and a few that were private via email. Almost everyone who showed was a level 3 paddler or above. I don't recall any who were less skilled in spite of the fact that several trips were described as mellow, no drama type of excursions. Many marine forecasts included 1 to 2 foot seas with light winds. So why no less experienced takers? I think that a lot has to do with knowing and not knowing the group of paddlers. To overcome this reluctance we need to be more welcoming in our language when we post. "All levels welcome, we will adapt our trip so all can have fun." OK not every trip, but some! My other point is this: If you see a trip posted send a PM to the initiator and ask if you will be welcomed given your experience level. You might be surprised at how hospitable we can be. Finally, a small confession: I may be the slowest paddler on almost every trip taken. I've tried to improve, even had some instruction on forward stroke. I even have what passes for a fairly fast boat. So most of my comrades are inherently faster than I and yet they still paddle with me! Why, I mean you could argue that given my speed I don't belong with many I seem to paddle with? Well the answer is that I post and whenever anyone else posts I show up. Try it you may find yourself paddling more than you ever thought.

[spuglisi]

Ed- I believe Sal was poking fun at the double post, not the content

Exactly right Phil, thank you. I wasn't trying to marginalize anything that Gerry said.

[Katherine]

Thanks everyone, I have a better understanding. My misunderstanding was that perhaps L3 and above paddlers wouldn't want to be on a L2 trip becuase it may be boring...

Now I see that it is mostly because of feeling uncomfortable with the responsibility.

I am picking up my first boat on May 26th (16' Valley Avocet) and will be at the Lake that night. I am a solid level 2 and if I could improve my bracing skills could be a level 3...

I hope to join many of your trips, see you soon!

Katherine

[bob budd]

I believe in the CAM concept there are no leaders with responsibility they should feel is solely theirs and thus might find proposing or initiating trips less intimidating. Anyone should feel free to initiate a trip, and be prepared to adjust the trip based upon who shows, what they know/don't know/want to learn, what they've done/haven't done/want to do, and what the collective experience level dictates.

[EEL]

Ed- I believe Sal was poking fun at the double post, not the content

Sorry for delay, but I was helping with sea trials in Maine.

I was being light hearted and spoofing myself a bit too. I'm sure Gerry understood.

On second thought, he has no right to be be masquerading as an OF. Far too young.

So now that I think about it, he deserved it. Whatever it was...

Ed Lawson

[chetpk]

I see this problem partially rooted in a generational difference. What would be nice to see is youth coming into the sport-club. Brambor is right that even if you have younger people on a paddle, there is little to no peers for them to further bond to the sport with.

Under the right circumstances, I can see a lot of younger kids taking to the sport. I was fortunate to have been part of the big outdoor boom that started in the 60's leading me from family camping to hiking to technical climbing to a number of adventures all over with a wide selection of peers to mix and match with.

The stumbling block I see for getting youth into it isn't trying to pique their interest, but first cost of the equipment and their ability to be able to have time for recreation. Because the seas can offer plenty of endorphin building experiences, I don't think they aren't attracted because it isn't exciting enough. In the days and age of massive student loans and hard to find jobs it makes it difficult for them.

I know in Europe, clubs will own small fleets of boats and in the old days, college outing clubs did as well. Members (youth?) could then at least have access to what they need to participate. I do know this is well beyond the scope of what this or for that matter most paddling clubs are in the position to do, but I think in recent years there have been few avenues for youth to experience the great outdoors and the potential of a life long lifestyle. After working with our youth for decades, what I saw was an over proliferation of organized sports run by adults and often for adults, kids from wealth that think jet skis and dirt bikes is the ticket or those with just a skate board and their local street as the final horizon.

I have no idea how this or any club can take on this challenge of passing it on, but we might be surprised at how some might respond.

[brambor]

Besides the infamous issues of liability ... and besides getting "dennis the menace":

We could do a 'youth day' or several of those in a season.

Or perhaps we could work with a local boy scout group or with a local school system or a local community outdoor program....

Many of us have more than one boat. We could designate a few outings when the water is warm enough where we show up a couple of hours before 'BIB' (butts in boats). We bring extra boat from our fleet (the one you can spare, the one you could use for an excuse to get a new boat etc...),

someone brings extra lifejacket, sprayskirt ... I could bring the goop repaired paddle I broke during my pool session

and we take the kids out.

After the trip we give them a one page printout with our web page and tell them they can join the club, participate in discussion, check out posted trips and if there is a trip they would like to do they can post an inquiry. If we can get a spare boat for them again they can go. Something like that...

[Gillian]

lol has anyone yet posted an l2 trip after 3 pages???? i think gene did but even 8-10 miles might be a bit much for an l2 paddler .. .

[Pintail]

Actually, dear Gillie, please go to trips page and see under the night paddle posted for 28th May -- I have deliberately opened it up...(although I have not mentioned any "level", it is meant to attract those who are level 2. There is nothing in the club trip levels description about daylight for trip level ratings (There is also nothing about + or - as when some of us write "2+"! This is a personal dislike for me -- that's all)

[brambor]

I'm just enjoying the coolaid. btw -

Going camping. 7AM at the Cousins Island put in tomorrow.

[EEL]

but even 8-10 miles might be a bit much for an l2 paddler .. .

Never sell a new paddler short.

True story, but the names have be redacted for obvious reasons. A person once lied about their experience (they had only been in a kayak once or twice) and joined a trip to Isle of Shoals with a borrowed kayak and paddle they had never used since they did not own one. They got out to isle of Shoals and returned during which they learned a great deal about seakayaking from the experience and the advice they received along the way. Upon landing back on shore, they basically had to be lifted from their kayak due to exhaustion. The trip leader asked about their experience and they replied honestly that they had never paddled on the ocean before. The leader pointedly asked if they had any idea how dangerous their actions had been for themselves and the rest of the paddlers. The leader then added that based on how they handled the situation, they were welcome to go of any trip he posted.

Not suggesting that approach is even remotely good.

BTW, I heard it from the paddler as we chatted while paddling with them in four+ foot following swells between Popham and Seguin as they coped with a disfunctional rudder. Perhaps it confirms a point made by Peter earlier.

Ed Lawson

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Actually, dear Gillie, please go to trips page and see under the night paddle posted for 28th May -- I have deliberately opened it up...(although I have not mentioned any "level", it is meant to attract those who are level 2. There is nothing in the club trip levels description about daylight for trip level ratings (There is also nothing about + or - as when some of us write "2+"! This is a personal dislike for me -- that's all)

Yes, yes, call it what is should be called...according to our description for L2 trips, "Paddling will be on lakes, sheltered rivers, harbors, tidal estuaries, etc.", G is correct that L2 trips have yet to be posted since this "discussion" began.

[Gcosloy]

QUOTE (Kevin B @ May 14 2010, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, yes, call it what is should be called...according to our description for L2 trips, "Paddling will be on lakes, sheltered rivers, harbors, tidal estuaries, etc.", G is correct that L2 trips have yet to be posted since this "discussion" began.

Well, with conditions being 1 foot seas and less than 10k wind, Salem Sound can resemble a lake or harbor. Given the caveat that based upon conditions the trip will be adjusted I feel that the trip I just posted would be well within the skill of a solid L2 paddler. Conversely, if one needs to limit the venue to lakes and streams and harbors I daresay there aren't going to be too many more advanced paddlers willing to do that with the noted exception of Neil, Doug and company up north a ways. And if the trip becomes a bit more challenging for some, there may be nothing wrong with that. However if I don't get at least a couple more L3 paddlers for Sunday my intention would be to revise and stick to the harbor and perhaps work on strokes.