Soaking wet in a dry suit

[jdkilroy]

Starting this topic to see if I can get some feedback regarding dressing beneath a "dry" suit for someone that tends to sweat a lot and needs to paddle at a high output all day long.

I have been using multiple thin wool layers recently in an attempt to get away from the wet synthetic feel but now I just get the all natural wet feel. I am soaked beneath my dry suit after the first 30 ~ 45 min of any paddle. I paddle year 'round so this is a safety issue as well as comfort.

So... any thoughts? I am planning to trial Kokatat's underlayers in a return to synthetics and see how that goes.

Appreciate any feedback, especially from those folks that "glow" more than most during exertion.

Thanks, Jon

[brambor]

My kid was arguing with me yesterday about being too hot in a drysuit. So I told him to take a dip in the water to cool down. He floated in his drysuit for a while until he got really cold. :-) That held him from overheating for a while. During the paddle I told him to wet his hair and face with the cold water. The wind picked up anyway and cooled him down even more.

Now we were not paddling like a band of NSPN'ers would 'haulin a$$' and such. I suppose you will get hot during a high output paddling. Perhaps rolling during the paddle is an option?

Starting this topic to see if I can get some feedback regarding dressing beneath a "dry" suit for someone that tends to sweat a lot and needs to paddle at a high output all day long.

I have been using multiple thin wool layers recently in an attempt to get away from the wet synthetic feel but now I just get the all natural wet feel. I am soaked beneath my dry suit after the first 30 ~ 45 min of any paddle. I paddle year 'round so this is a safety issue as well as comfort.

So... any thoughts? I am planning to trial Kokatat's underlayers in a return to synthetics and see how that goes.

Appreciate any feedback, especially from those folks that "glow" more than most during exertion.

Thanks, Jon

[bob budd]

The (cold?) reality of the situation is that once you stick your breathable membrane covered legs inside your cockpit and put a PFD on, only your arms are breathable. If you are generating heat you are going to sweat. I prefer synthetics to wools as lighter and more comfortable. Aside from rolling you can dip your hat and/or hands in the water, I can't think of much else. If you really must keep moving you can roll without stopping.

[Phil Allen]

I love wool for most cold weather endeavors, but find that it doesn't move moisture around as well as some of the synthetics. I'm always wet under the sprayskirt/pfd, but do find that the polarplus type material is a good compromise between insulation and sweat transport.

A good piece of advice I got from a backcountry skier was to slow down to a level of exertion where you aren't sweating. Of course he'd been climbing up mountains on skis for years and was in much better shape than I was. Guess if you want to be dry you'll need to do the same.

Phil

[spuglisi]

I love wool for most cold weather endeavors, but find that it doesn't move moisture around as well as some of the synthetics. I'm always wet under the sprayskirt/pfd, but do find that the polarplus type material is a good compromise between insulation and sweat transport.

A good piece of advice I got from a backcountry skier was to slow down to a level of exertion where you aren't sweating. Of course he'd been climbing up mountains on skis for years and was in much better shape than I was. Guess if you want to be dry you'll need to do the same.

Phil

I use synthetics under my drysuit....and I've found that there can be quite a differance between one material (brand) and another. The clue is that the ones that come out of the wash nearly dry are the ones that will work best against your skin. I know I got it right when my outer layer is damp but my skin feels dry. Also, as Suz Hutchinson mentions often...careful laundering helps maintain wicking properties.

[jdkilroy]

Thanks for replies so far:

I roll all the time to cool and that's just fine when water temps are reasonable .... Its also just fine when the boat is unladen; or just your day gear. A fully loaded boat is another matter. Not a big deal to do but preference is not to be doing that. In addition, a quick roll provides momentary respite at best if the level of exertion is unchanged.

I am going to trial using a inflatable PFD to reduce that effect and I am going to try various synthetics. So far no specifics on what gear works for folks; ie what brand of synthetic are you using?

PS: laundering will not be an available option so fabrics that don't accumulate stink are good.

[Phil Allen]

Thanks for replies so far:

I roll all the time to cool and that's just fine when water temps are reasonable .... Its also just fine when the boat is unladen; or just your day gear. A fully loaded boat is another matter. Not a big deal to do but preference is not to be doing that. In addition, a quick roll provides momentary respite at best if the level of exertion is unchanged.

I am going to trial using a inflatable PFD to reduce that effect and I am going to try various synthetics. So far no specifics on what gear works for folks; ie what brand of synthetic are you using?

PS: laundering will not be an available option so fabrics that don't accumulate stink are good.

Ah, the stink factor. That's one extremely strong benefit to wool. I've found that folks greatly prefer the smell of wet sheep to sweaty me, especially after a few days of camping. I like Icebreaker 260 weight crew-necks for regular drysuit wear, sometimes with a lightweight wicking layer underneath. As for specifics on synthetics, the outercore by Kokatat has served me well.

P

[rwolson]

I too suffer from excessive heat and sweat when paddling wondering how to conquer the wet feeling.

This year, new drysuit and light weight wool under the suit. I actually felt dry. However, took my cap off during my paddling session and got it soaking wet. The cold water helped cool me down. I need to wear my hat because I'm hair challenged. The other problem, glasses which fog up and no way to prevent the "I can't see" feeling.

[spuglisi]

I too suffer from excessive heat and sweat when paddling wondering how to conquer the wet feeling.

This year, new drysuit and light weight wool under the suit. I actually felt dry. However, took my cap off during my paddling session and got it soaking wet. The cold water helped cool me down. I need to wear my hat because I'm hair challenged. The other problem, glasses which fog up and no way to prevent the "I can't see" feeling.

I like "Craft" baselayers. It's kinda pricey so I try and pick it up when I find it marked way down. Also, I find that a product called "cat crap" helps prevent, but doesn't entirely prevent, glasses from fogging.

[Suz]

I like "Craft" baselayers. It's kinda pricey so I try and pick it up when I find it marked way down. Also, I find that a product called "cat crap" helps prevent, but doesn't entirely prevent, glasses from fogging.

Sal,

I am unfamiliar with Craft brand base layers so looked up on the internet and found their website. Tried to find out the fiber content but no info was there. Can you look at your baselayers and let inquiring minds know???

I am curious as they seem to be big in the biking market and many biking products have high nylon content and nylon holds water and so you stay wet with it on.

Suz

[brambor]

Craft is also big in Nordic Skiing.

Sal,

I am unfamiliar with Craft brand base layers so looked up on the internet and found their website. Tried to find out the fiber content but no info was there. Can you look at your baselayers and let inquiring minds know???

I am curious as they seem to be big in the biking market and many biking products have high nylon content and nylon holds water and so you stay wet with it on.

Suz

[spuglisi]

Sal,

I am unfamiliar with Craft brand base layers so looked up on the internet and found their website. Tried to find out the fiber content but no info was there. Can you look at your baselayers and let inquiring minds know???

I am curious as they seem to be big in the biking market and many biking products have high nylon content and nylon holds water and so you stay wet with it on.

Suz

Suz,

The Craft shirts that I have are all 100% polyester. I think that it's a combination of the material, the textured weave and snug (but NOT compression) fit that helps them work well. I find them very comfortable next to my skin.

[spuglisi]

Suz,

The Craft shirts that I have are all 100% polyester. I think that it's a combination of the material, the textured weave and snug (but NOT compression) fit that helps them work well. I find them very comfortable next to my skin.

Also...when I wear the shirts alone for hiking or biking, in hot weather, they seem to pull the moisture away from my skin and have a nice evaporative cooling effect.

[John Martinsen]

I often go with a silk weight wool t-shirt, like icebreaker, with the Patagonia Capilene 4 fabric, nice combo of natural base layer with a really good synthetic layer above.

I find wool more comfortable for hanging around in camp, and synthetics better at keeping me warm on the water while drying a little quicker.

Great to pull into camp, put on a dry mid weight wool base layer, put back on the soggy synthetic layer, and put a fleece on top of it all, often with a windbreaker. Dries out the wet layers fairly quickly while leaving a dry feeling layer next to your skin. Stash the dry wool layer the next morning and repeat...

[Brian Nystrom]

I've got a bunch of different types of technical underwear that I've accumulated over the years (Thermax, Outlast, Hot Chilies, Craft, EMS & LL Bean house brands, etc.) and frankly, none of it really keeps me dry. I also don't notice much difference from one brand to another, other than in the feel of the fabric. Some polyester knits still have that "hot" feeling that some of us old timers remember from the "Ban-Lon" days (I notice this somewhat with Craft garments). One type that I don't have is Capilene, which is highly rated, but I'm skeptical that's it's going to be any better than what I have. I haven't found a single type of wool that I can wear against sweaty skin (other than on my hands and feet) without getting itchy and while it's reasonably warm when damp, it's still damp. I do have one wool/polyester blend top that's OK (Lavawool). At this point, I've pretty much given up on the search for the ultimate base layer.

I think it really just comes down to how much you sweat, which varies from one individual to the next. If you sweat hard, nothing is going to keep you dry. Some of us are just doomed to be damp.

[Pintail]

<...One type that I don't have is Capilene, which is highly rated, but I'm skeptical that's it's going to be any better than what I have...>

Ha ha! That might be the very first time I have <ever> known Dr. Nystrom not to have tested the entire product spectrum and therefore not to have known the complete answer! We have known each other...(what?)...perhaps a dozen years, BN? I reckon so.

Anyhow, back to the question of Capilene: <of course> it's the best -- because <I> endorse it! Honest injun (oh, is that not pc?), I love the way it works so well, either under fleece, or -- in summer -- on its own as a sunguard. Buy it from the Patagonia outlet store at a fraction of its retail price.

(The water isn't so bad at the moment -- I believe it's around 44F here in Gloucester at present and perfectly comfortable for rolling practice. Neither have I been wearing gloves)

[spider]

After years of winter hiking, where I had much the same problem with staying dry, I realized that breathable products come into ther own with their ability to dry quickly. So the underlying logic is that 1st of all you are Wet...usually drenched in your own sweat.

So, much like another poster mentioned, breatheable fabrics need room to breathe. When we kayak we make a micro climate as soon as we put the spray skirt on the kayak. Humidity soars with no where to go. (a breathable fabric can only "breathe" in relation to the surounding humidity).

So one would wind up paddling feeling you might as well be wearing a diaper (or Depends for our age group) if one wanted to feel dry.

then

For our torso we wear a PFD (much like wearing a backpack) so the amount of material that is actually available to breathe is quite small...mostly just our arms.

For kayaking I mostly just live with it, but on really hot days with calm conditions I will pop the spray skirt off and at least get some air flow happening.

A lot of the companies offer low odor synthetics these days. Often marketed as "anti- microbial" some are woven with a ratio of silver in the fabric ..though things like Bambo clothing and what not might have other ways of doing it.

I like Mountain Hardwear products but that was partly because I could get them heavily discounted where I worked .

So I guess the bottom line is that I am happiest with clothing that lets me dry quickly... when I am out of the kayak...on breaks or at the campsite or whatever.

So you may find that to be the case for you as well.

[NPSheehan]

My solution is two fold.

First: I wear a long sleeve EMS Bergelene shirt close to my skin then another short sleeve shirt over it or if it's very cold a polartec 100 long sleeve. For the bottoms I wear Ragged Mountain Power Tech stretch pants

http://www.hike-nh.com/gear/review.shtml?EMSBerg

http://raggedmountain.com/index.php/clothi...rtec-tight.html

Second: When stopping for an extended break/lunch I strip off the dry suit down to the waist and let my undergarment top air dry as well as turn the drysuit top inside out to let it dry. If it's too cold to air dry wearing I always carry extra fleece layers and change out of the wet into the warm dry clothes and let the moist sweaty clothing air dry on a rock or my boat. If it's completely dry I put it back on again if not I keep the warn spare layer on. You'll get a lot colder with wet clothes on even under the drysuit if it gets chilly later so I find it best to dry the wet under-layers when you can.

Surprisingly my lower body in the Polartech power stretch pants never get very sweaty I guess I perspire more in the upper body than the lower which I guess makes sense as my arms and torso are moving much more than my but and legs

Neil

[EEL]

PS: laundering will not be an available option so fabrics that don't accumulate stink are good.

This suggests to me you are thinking about how do deal with this issue in the context of a prolonged tour of a week or more. Lots of good advice given here, but this is my opinion about this issue when out more than a few days. First, I would talk to those who have done similar type trips to see what worked for them as opposed to what works for "normal" paddling. The equipment and techniques that work for a day's play paddle may not be useful nor are how people approach weekend camping trips since that is really more a picnic with a sleepover than living "out there". For example, as you mentioned, rolling to cool off is not a practical technique if out to cover ground in a loaded boat.

Personally, it took years of trial and error in many different environments to evolve a collection of gear and techniques that works for me. I don't presume they would work for anyone else or they are the best or only approach. All I know is they allow me to be at home "out there" in relative comfort.

I think the reality of long trips requires an acceptance that at times (maybe often) you are going to be putting on cold clammy clothes in the morning and you may well be clammy/wet/smelly during the day, having a set of dry comfy clothes for camp use which you protect/use carefully, understanding that you are not out camping nor are you bringing your normal environment/comforts with you, but rather you are living "out there" with whatever you have, and spending time cleaning, drying, and maintaining gear. Which, to come around to the beginning, means you should expect to take time and opportunity to do all those mundane things of everyday life like laundry. Since you have to be able to obtain fresh water every few days, you should be able to do so.

FWIW, I think light wool next to skin and a poly outer layer is a good combination. For me wool tends to feel dry and warm even when wet while poly feels wet, but drys fast as an outer layer. Doing chores to in damp paddle clothes to help dry them before changing to camp clothes helps too. For me Gortex type fabrics works well at say 9,000 feet in the Rockies, but does not work all that well in a damp kayaking environment. Not saying badly, and I rely on it there too.

Ed Lawson

[JohnHuth]

a lot of times, I use a tight-fitting rash-guard top.

The main issue is that I have an alternate set of dry clothes to get into rapidly and some means of drying out the undergarments when I take off my dry suit.

My worst experience was a very hot spell in Bar Harbor during one of the symposiums up there. I felt my drysuit begin to fill with water, and I thought that I'd sprung a leak. When I took off my drysuit at the hotel, I must've poured a liter of water out of both of the boots.

The stink of the undergarments was amazing.

Even though the water temp was 50, in retrospect, I think I might have been better off with a wetsuit, even though I was working on rescues all day long.

[rick stoehrer]

in my experience, there is no "good" answer. you sweat and the breathable fabric essentially doesn't breathe as fast as you'd like and voila - slick, sweat city.

best i've been able to do is to wear 2 thin wicking layers....the one closest to me stays relatively dry while the layer closest to the drysuit is soaked. there is still moisture but YOU are pretty dry...it's that outside layer that takes the brunt of it.

last weekend went out with just one thin layer and a dry top and neo pants vs the whole dry suit. i find that to be much cooler. my chest core is warm and would stay dry for a short swim but anything prolonged mught be different. you need to weigh that against the weather, where you're going, who're you with and what can you do? hypothermia is a danger but is it a realistic danger in a group of 4 capable paddlers on a flat warm day in relatively protected water?

[EEL]

in my experience, there is no "good" answer. you sweat and the breathable fabric essentially doesn't breathe as fast as you'd like and voila - slick, sweat city....

you need to weigh that against the weather, where you're going, who're you with and what can you do? hypothermia is a danger but is it a realistic danger in a group of 4 capable paddlers on a flat warm day in relatively protected water?

Bingo!

Ed Lawson

[jdkilroy]

Well heck,

If I'm with a bunch of paddlers (peers) then I can just do away with the damn pfd which is the primary cause of the loss of breathe-ability anyway. We're on to something here...

[John Martinsen]

For non-weekend/day trip applications...

Having worked many month long self supported sea kayak expeditions, often in places with inclement weather, this is the clothing kit that works for me for most coastal conditions down to the mid to low 40's. Not having a washer/dryer with you means you have to actively work to keep clothing dry, otherwise you end up with a lot of wet dirty stinky clothing, often hiding in corners of your kayak. If you bring 5 long sleeve shirts, chances are eventually you're going to wear all of them, get them wet, and then you'll have a pile of soggy clothing with no hopes of getting dry. So I only bring a few, as few as I can get away with, and I wear them to dry them out. Granted if the weather is nice and sunny you can put things out to dry, but if you get a lot of rain (it once rained 25 of the 28 days I was out) you can't count on the weather to dry your clothing. I also find the less stuff I bring with me the more I enjoy my trips, because I'm not distracted by lots of crap, trying to pack lots of extra stuff, or trying find some missing piece of trivia. Some Gold Bond powder keeps down the smell, but if you're out that long you're going to smell, no way around it. A small bottle of camp suds and you can wash stuff every once in awhile, but it ends up not being that often realistically, at least not for me.

I split up my clothing into different places, but try to keep my main clothing bag limited to a 20 liter dry bag. Sometimes there is a little spill over into another small dry bag. A few items like a hat and the extra long sleeve layer ride in my dry lap bag. I don't water proof my rain gear, so it doesn't take up any room in my dry bag, and get my other stuff wet.

But here are my bare minimum for insulation and clothing...

-2 pair heavy wool socks, one stashed in the sleeping bag or sleeping bag stuff sack.

-2 pair wool or synthetic underwear, the extra pair stashed in the sleeping bag stuff sack.

-1 lightweight wool or synthetic t-shirts.

-2 mid weight wool or synthetic long sleeve shirts.

-1 pair synthetic long johns.

-1 synthetic "puff" jacket preferably with a hood, a very key item.

-1 or two warm hats.

-Wind pants or camp pants

-Hooded wind jacket, great for bugs.

-Rain jacket and pants,

Optional stuff:

-Fleece pants, stuffed in the sleeping bag, great if the weather is really cold and wet.

-1 mid weight fleece or polartec top or vest, great extra layer to paddle in for cold days.

-Fleece one piece

With all these layers on, even wet or damp I can stay fairly warm, especially if I'm moving around. To dry out clothing, I get out of the rain (a tarp is essential) put on a dry long sleeve base layer under the wet layers, then put on the puff jacket and wind breaker over all of that. This is usually enough to dry things out fairly quickly. If layers are still damp when I go to bed, I take them into the sleeping bag with me, and my body heat will dry them out over night. Or I just wear dampish layers to bed. If I really need some help getting stuff dry and myself warm, I bring a hot water bottle into the sleeping bag with me. Before I break camp in the morning, or maybe before I get in the boat, I take off my dry base layer, put it in a dry safe place, so I can repeat the process when I get to camp that afternoon. Has worked for me...

[spider]

Well heck,

If I'm with a bunch of paddlers (peers) then I can just do away with the damn pfd which is the primary cause of the loss of breathe-ability anyway. We're on to something here...

Depends if you're a really good swimmer... or if other paddlers would shun you for not wearng a pfd.

Need to look at some of those Dubside videos.. can't quite remember seeing which style of PFD he prefers.

Same with some of the racers like Greg Barton are they all wearing PFDs ? I forget. Maybe they are just really good swimmers. Dubside sure is a heck of a roller..can't really see why he would need one.

Nice list from Johnysmoke, good idea keeping some of that suff right in the sleeping bag.