inflatable pfd question

[PeterB]

I'm curious how inflatable (with CO2 cartridge etc) pfds perform when not inflated.

The Kokatat SeaO2 PFD has 7.5 lbs flotation (most Pfds look like theyre in the 16 lb neighborhood )

which is increased to 22 lbs when the cartridge is activated.

Question is: how does the pfd do at 7.5 lbs, without inflating? surely in a prolonged swimming scenario one would want the extra flotation, but is 7.5 lbs sufficient for most "normal" swimming scenarios (wet exit and rescue, or reenter and roll, cowboy self- rescue etc) or does the vest need to be inflated in virtually all swimming/wet exit situations?

[jdkilroy]

I have not had the opportunity to play with one of these myself but have discussed this same thing with a couple of experienced paddlers that use them. (Jeff Allen is a big fan of these) Given the reduced bulk, they tend to stay out of your way and let you get those normal (short time in the water) activities done a bit easier. I guess the down side is, once you put a hole in the bladder, no more added flotation. Becomes a peace-of-mind thing.

Great topic Peter.

Jon

[Suz]

I have not had the opportunity to play with one of these myself but have discussed this same thing with a couple of experienced paddlers that use them. (Jeff Allen is a big fan of these) Given the reduced bulk, they tend to stay out of your way and let you get those normal (short time in the water) activities done a bit easier. I guess the down side is, once you put a hole in the bladder, no more added flotation. Becomes a peace-of-mind thing.

Great topic Peter.

Jon

Pintail - Christopher,

Perhaps you have something to say? You have been wearing one for over a year now. Either you like it or not by this point!

Suz

[NPSheehan]

The Kokatat SeaO2 looks like a great product. A friend has one and we plan to put it through the test on April 3rd at the YMCA pool skill session. The oral inflation would allow fine tuning to the amount of inflation you would require for additional buoyancy. I only wish that the Kokatat Tributary Hydration System would attach to it. Currently it does not so I'm not giving up on my MSFit Tour yet.

Neil

[Pintail]

Pintail <has> something to add; but not too much...in eight words: the most comfortable PFD I have ever worn! (Assuming -- incorrectly -- PFD as one word!)

The buoyancy when de-flated (which it is not, entirely, in reality) is perfectly adequate for most stuff; but regarding Mr. B's concern about swimming -- I do not know: I thought this was a boating forum! I do not usually make a habit of getting out of my boat when on the ocean (Peter!)

I had no idea that others liked this PFD (I was beginning to think perhaps I was the only one?); but I am heartened to read that Mr. Allen also likes these...see: I always <thought> I had good taste!

Oh, one other thing: someone else mentioned hydration -- whats that? So -- the Kokatat thingamajiggy does not attache to this PFD -- big deal! Why not strap your pack under the deck bungees (where, incidentally, it will present a lower C of G in your sea kayak) or even put it inside the cockpit (where C of G will be even lower!) I would not let something as minor as that preclude my decision (You think T.E. Lawrence rode through the desert, sipping from his hydration pack? Pah!)

[tyson]

Oh, one other thing: someone else mentioned hydration -- whats that? So -- the Kokatat thingamajiggy does not attache to this PFD -- big deal! Why not strap your pack under the deck bungees (where, incidentally, it will present a lower C of G in your sea kayak) or even put it inside the cockpit (where C of G will be even lower!)

I hate having too many things strapped to me. I also hate having too many things strapped to my deck. ...though some are better at hating these things than I and wonder about the number of things I have on my PFD and deck...

I have developed a habit of permanently installing a hydration hose with a bite valve on one end and a quick release on the other through my deck. This permits me to keep a hydration bladder below deck (typically behind my seat), have quick and easy access to drinking water and not have my PFD or deck cluttered with the bladder.

Emilie cringed when I took the drill to our brand new Kevlar tandem to install the hoses.

Cheers!

Ty

[NPSheehan]

Oh, one other thing: someone else mentioned hydration -- whats that? So -- the Kokatat thingamajiggy does not attache to this PFD -- big deal! Why not strap your pack under the deck bungees (where, incidentally, it will present a lower C of G in your sea kayak) or even put it inside the cockpit (where C of G will be even lower!) I would not let something as minor as that preclude my decision (You think T.E. Lawrence rode through the desert, sipping from his hydration pack? Pah!)

I've used a Platypus Kayak Hydrator on my deck but found it less useful in surf as it woud get torn off and the hose full of sand. In winter the hose would freeze up. So the Kokatak Tributary with added neoprene sleeve over the hose has worked very well for me. With the cost of the Kokatat Tributary I would not give it up just to purchase a new PFD. I think those who have the Tributary can also vouch for it's great design in attaching to the PFD and it's functionality. As far as C of G while wearing it, it has not impacted me in any way in stability or while rolling, although I never fill it to max capacity and only carry enough water in it for the amount I expect to consume while underway. On a camping trip or extended paddle I carry extra water in my kayak. If the SeaO2 had been designed with the Tributary in mind I probably would already have one as it looks like a great product.

I think T.E. Lawrence might have worn a hydration pack if they had them back in the 1930s.

hydration back packs have become common gear in land based as well as kayaking expeditions.

Neil

[Pintail]

<I think T.E. Lawrence might have worn a hydration pack if they had them back in the 1930s.

hydration back packs have become common gear in land based as well as kayaking expeditions>

I doubt it, Neil: he shunned any sort of what he perceived as luxury or comfort, being something of an ascetic. If the Arabs didn't do it -- neither did he! The same thing holds true for so many of the "old brigade" -- Wilfred Thesiger, for example -- hardship was part and parcel of the experience, wasn't it? Let's face it: we are a soft race, nowadays!

[PeterB]

Pintail <has> something to add; but not too much...in eight words: the most comfortable PFD I have ever worn! (Assuming -- incorrectly -- PFD as one word!)

The buoyancy when de-flated (which it is not, entirely, in reality) is perfectly adequate for most stuff; but regarding Mr. B's concern about swimming -- I do not know: I thought this was a boating forum! I do not usually make a habit of getting out of my boat when on the ocean (Peter!)

I had no idea that others liked this PFD (I was beginning to think perhaps I was the only one?); but I am heartened to read that Mr. Allen also likes these...see: I always <thought> I had good taste!

Oh, one other thing: someone else mentioned hydration -- whats that? So -- the Kokatat thingamajiggy does not attache to this PFD -- big deal! Why not strap your pack under the deck bungees (where, incidentally, it will present a lower C of G in your sea kayak) or even put it inside the cockpit (where C of G will be even lower!) I would not let something as minor as that preclude my decision (You think T.E. Lawrence rode through the desert, sipping from his hydration pack? Pah!)

This is indeed a boating forum, which includes things like what happens while not in one's boat (wet exiting, rescues outfitting & repairing boats, bivvying and on and on) No one wants to make a habit of getting out of ones boat while on the ocean: but the whole idea of a P.F.D. is to be prepared for that eventuality. Otherwise, why wear one?

I don't understand what "most stuff" is, if it does not include flotation while in the water.

Regarding hydration: I have a Lotus (I think) hydration pack and even though I don' t use it for hydration (I keep a small drybag with flares etc in it) it attaches to any pfd, so, affixing a hydration pack to the Sea O2, or any other P.F.D., Can Be Done. My friend (I think) Mr. Godfrey's spleen and vapors aside, I agree with him here, hydration pack issues alone are no reason not to consider this or that pfd.

[NPSheehan]

Regarding hydration: I have a Lotus (I think) hydration pack and even though I don' t use it for hydration (I keep a small drybag with flares etc in it) it attaches to any pfd, so, affixing a hydration pack to the Sea O2, or any other P.F.D., Can Be Done. My friend (I think) Mr. Godfrey's spleen and vapors aside, I agree with him here, hydration pack issues alone are no reason not to consider this or that pfd.

I agree Peter but I already made the investment in the Tributary and it would've been a big selling point for me if I could mount it to the SeaO2. I haven't checked out the Lotus but other systems I've seen and tried beside the Tributary were not in my opinion as well designed for attaching to the PFD. I'll decide further after trying it at the pool.

Neil

[EEL]

Aside from the nefarious hydration gadget, what do those wering inflatable PFDs use for storing all the usual impediments that are stuffed in pockets and which you tend to want on your person whether in the boat or in the water?

Ed Lawson

[Pintail]

One small-ish, secure pocket (VHF-sized) and one <large>, zippered one: I think it is plenty of storage, unless you plan on carrying the kitchen sink on your person...

Wet exits, dear Peter: what are those? (Alright, alright: I do know, really!) (Of course you're my buddy!)

I reiterate: once you have worn one of these, there is a distinct possibility that you'll not want to go back to any other PFD!

[jdkilroy]

Something else to consider: The SeaO2 offers little if any protection to the torso from impact. I would rather tear my PFD than my dry suit if getting tossed on the rocks not to mention being spared a rib fx or worse...

[PeterB]

Aside from the nefarious hydration gadget, what do those wearing inflatable PFDs use for storing all the usual impediments that are stuffed in pockets and which you tend to want on your person whether in the boat or in the water?

Ed Lawson

The SeaO2, it appears, has two pockets, one shaped for a vhf radio, the other looks like a fair- sized zippered pocket for odds and ends.

There's another kind of inflatable PFD that I've seen, which looks quite minimalist, I've seen it on a few kayakers, and also on Coast Guard, harbormaster types; might be standard issue for some official boating duties. I don't think they have any pockets , or small ones if they have them at all.

[EEL]

One small-ish, secure pocket (VHF-sized) and one <large>, zippered one:

I was thinking of the other inflatables such as this one which have no pockets at all.

http://www.stearnsflotation.com/Ultratrade...-PFD-P1376.aspx

Ed Lawson

[PeterB]

I was thinking of the other inflatables such as this one which have no pockets at all.

http://www.stearnsflotation.com/Ultratrade...-PFD-P1376.aspx

Ed Lawson

Yes, thats the one I was alluding to. Here's another very similar model: looks like its got a small zippered pocket.

I think both these models have zero flotation, or close to it when ininflated.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/store...;classNum=12387

[spuglisi]

I was thinking of the other inflatables such as this one which have no pockets at all.

http://www.stearnsflotation.com/Ultratrade...-PFD-P1376.aspx

Ed Lawson

I use a lotus hydration pack ..possibly like Peter's...it has a very secure universal attachment. Though I haven't looked at a tributary closely enough to make any comparison.

[PeterB]

I use a lotus hydration pack ..possibly like Peter's...it has a very secure universal attachment. Though I haven't looked at a tributary closely enough to make any comparison.

I took a look at the Kokatat tributary on their website and have trouble seeing why it wouldn't attach to any pfd. If the hooks , snaps whatever it comes with don't work, I would think that something could be used to attach it: zip ties, narrow diameter bungee, duct tape, whatever.

All of this makes me want drink lots of water, and to go paddling.

[jason]

The SeaO2, it appears, has two pockets, one shaped for a vhf radio, the other looks like a fair- sized zippered pocket for odds and ends.

There's another kind of inflatable PFD that I've seen, which looks quite minimalist, I've seen it on a few kayakers, and also on Coast Guard, harbormaster types; might be standard issue for some official boating duties. I don't think they have any pockets , or small ones if they have them at all.

Having the hydration pack on is the best way I know to to have water if your become separated from your boat.

-Jason

[NPSheehan]

I took a look at the Kokatat tributary on their website and have trouble seeing why it wouldn't attach to any pfd. If the hooks , snaps whatever it comes with don't work, I would think that something could be used to attach it: zip ties, narrow diameter bungee, duct tape, whatever.

All of this makes me want drink lots of water, and to go paddling.

The Tributary may work on other PFDs if the shoulder adjustment buckles as well as the side adjustment straps are located close to where they are on the Kokatat PFDs it is designed to work with. I tried attaching the Tributary to Cyndi's MTI Discovery and although the waist adjustment straps were in the correct place to attach the Tributary the shoulder adjustment buckles were below the shoulder strap sleave and hence the Tributary could not be mounted to that PFD as designed. It could be jury rigged but then you run into the problem that the jury rigged PFD no-longer meets Coast Guard approval and you could be fined if the CG determines you modified your PFD in any way.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5214/pfdselection.asp#faq

Modifying a PFD, such as (permanently) adding additional body strap webbing, voids the device's approval, no matter who does the modification.

Neil

[tyson]

Having the hydration pack on is the best way I know to to have water if your become separated from your boat.

So, what are the limits on that line of reasoning? Most of what I carry has something to do with survival. ...but I'm not strapping all of it to my PFD.

Cheers!

Ty

[jdkilroy]

".... you could be fined if the CG determines you modified your PFD in any way."

As a non-commercial user of a personal PFD, I am not aware of any laws regarding modifying my PFD.

Obviously, different rules apply if I am a commercial enterprise providing flotation devices to others who are paying me for a service on the water.

Jon

[EEL]

".... you could be fined if the CG determines you modified your PFD in any way."

As a non-commercial user of a personal PFD, I am not aware of any laws regarding modifying my PFD.

Quote from CG info regarding PFDs.

"Modifying a PFD, such as (permanently) adding additional body strap webbing, voids the device's approval, no matter who does the modification."

Of course that begs the question as to what constitutes a modification. Of course engaging in that debate while being questioned by a Coastie who is inspecting your gear is unlikely to be productive.

Ed Lawson

[jdkilroy]

The question is not about whether a PFD retains its CG approval, the question is whether there is a law prohibiting modification of a personal PFD that could result in my being fined. I am not aware of any such laws.

Technically, just the act of seizing a knife sheath to your PFD shoulder strap voids its CG approval; these articles are approved only in the form that they were initially presented to the Coast Guard for such approval... if that makes sense.

[EEL]

The question is not about whether a PFD retains its CG approval, the question is whether there is a law prohibiting modification of a personal PFD that could result in my being fined. I am not aware of any such laws.

My $.02 is that the CG has the legal authority to impose a civil penalty of $1,000 for a violation of the rules regarding required equipment. An approved PFD is a item of required equipment. If a modified PFD is declared to be an unapproved PFD, then you do not have required equipment and can be subject to civil penalty. It is indirect, but that is how it goes. I'm not saying I'd worry about it. Just if things get technical and picky that is the path they would go down. Stuff happens. I know someone who was paddling in a kayak and the coasties came up and demanded he show them an ID. It was a little unnerving as the M60 was manned and pointed in his direction.

To put it in perspective, a violation of the Rules can result in a civil penalty of $5,000 and the improper use of a VHF radio can result in a criminal fine of $10,000 and imprisonment.

Ed lawson