inflatable pfd question

[brambor]

Do I have to carry an ID while paddling?

My $.02 is that the CG has the legal authority to impose a civil penalty of $1,000 for a violation of the rules regarding required equipment. An approved PFD is a item of required equipment. If a modified PFD is declared to be an unapproved PFD, then you do not have required equipment and can be subject to civil penalty. It is indirect, but that is how it goes. I'm not saying I'd worry about it. Just if things get technical and picky that is the path they would go down. Stuff happens. I know someone who was paddling in a kayak and the coasties came up and demanded he show them an ID. It was a little unnerving as the M60 was manned and pointed in his direction.

To put it in perspective, a violation of the Rules can result in a civil penalty of $5,000 and the improper use of a VHF radio can result in a criminal fine of $10,000 and imprisonment.

Ed lawson

[leong]

Probably not nearly as safe, but I use an inflatable belt pack PFD (actually, only when racing). The ultimate in comfort.

See http://www.lifesupportintl.com/products/In...al-106-172.html

[Brian Nystrom]

My $.02 is that the CG has the legal authority to impose a civil penalty of $1,000 for a violation of the rules regarding required equipment. An approved PFD is a item of required equipment. If a modified PFD is declared to be an unapproved PFD, then you do not have required equipment and can be subject to civil penalty. It is indirect, but that is how it goes. I'm not saying I'd worry about it. Just if things get technical and picky that is the path they would go down. Stuff happens. I know someone who was paddling in a kayak and the coasties came up and demanded he show them an ID. It was a little unnerving as the M60 was manned and pointed in his direction.

To put it in perspective, a violation of the Rules can result in a civil penalty of $5,000 and the improper use of a VHF radio can result in a criminal fine of $10,000 and imprisonment.

To add some "real" perspective: What are the odds that the CG is going to actually inspect your PFD for compliance? I'd say they're about zero. If you're out paddling legally and wearing a PFD - as opposed to not - the CG is not going to bother you. I've seen them watching a group of us through binoculars and all they've ever done is give us a quick scan, then move on. The only contact I can recall having with them is once when we were engaged in rescue practice and I paddled over to them to let them know what we were doing and that we didn't need any assistance. They're not out there to harass kayakers and don't seem to have any interest in doing so.

One other thing to keep in mind regarding PFDs is that the CG routinely wears vests full of gear over their PFDs, which they told us (at a kayaker/CG meeting) are perfectly legal under the regulations. Given that, I don't think anyone is going to hassle you about having a hydration pack/knife/radio attached to your PFD. CG-approved PFDs are available with a broad array of pockets, hydration pockets, lash tabs and such, so obviously, they expect that people are going to use them. Besides, attaching something to the PFD is not technically a modification, as you haven't changed the PFD itself in any way. What they don't want you to do is to modify the construction of the PFD.

IMO, theorizing about potential problems with the CG is a complete waste of time. My experience has been that they are very supportive of responsible kayakers. As long as we're not causing headaches for them - or other boaters - they leave us alone.

[NPSheehan]

Personaly I prefer to stay in compliance with the CG and other local Marine Patrol regulations and thus not have to worry about anything if stopped for an inspection. The Coast Guard has routinely stopped kayakers and has done safety inspections similar to stopping recreational power boats. Why they choose to stop one group of kayakers over another may be totally random or they see something that they consider worth checking out. I know of one kayaker friend who was given a hard time by the Coast Guard for a very minor permanent modification to their PFD. Fortunately they were not fined but that could've very likely been the case as well. With that said I do attach things to my PFD such as knife, strobe light etc. but all are not permanent and attached with velcro strips or clips. This is probably why PFD manufacturers have D-Ring tethers in pockets and lash tabs so that people won't have a need to add their own modifications to attach these things.

Neil

[PeterB]

To add some "real" perspective: What are the odds that the CG is going to actually inspect your PFD for compliance? I'd say they're about zero. If you're out paddling legally and wearing a PFD - as opposed to not - the CG is not going to bother you. I've seen them watching a group of us through binoculars and all they've ever done is give us a quick scan, then move on. The only contact I can recall having with them is once when we were engaged in rescue practice and I paddled over to them to let them know what we were doing and that we didn't need any assistance. They're not out there to harass kayakers and don't seem to have any interest in doing so.

One other thing to keep in mind regarding PFDs is that the CG routinely wears vests full of gear over their PFDs, which they told us (at a kayaker/CG meeting) are perfectly legal under the regulations. Given that, I don't think anyone is going to hassle you about having a hydration pack/knife/radio attached to your PFD. CG-approved PFDs are available with a broad array of pockets, hydration pockets, lash tabs and such, so obviously, they expect that people are going to use them. Besides, attaching something to the PFD is not technically a modification, as you haven't changed the PFD itself in any way. What they don't want you to do is to modify the construction of the PFD.

IMO, theorizing about potential problems with the CG is a complete waste of time. My experience has been that they are very supportive of responsible kayakers. As long as we're not causing headaches for them - or other boaters - they leave us alone.

I agree with everything here. It's pretty clear that hydration packs do not compromise the performance of a PFD (water, though heavy is neutrally buoyant, no problem once in the water) ; they are sold by any number of companies, and are not illegal, So I wouldn't worry about adding some straps, whatever, to a given hydration pack to allow it to strap on to a given PFD. The hydration pack would then be modified in some way, but not the PFD.

[bob budd]

When you attach a hydrator you are altering the distribution of weight, i.e. body in PFD and hydrator (presumably) on the back. As it weighs a few pounds I'd doubt it significantly alters your position in the water when relaxed, the position the PFD is designed to hold you up in. I'd much rather have the water along for the ride. As this thread has already digressed in other directions I'll also mention that the "standard" PFD offers significant insulation/warmth in the winter though it defeats breathability of the dry suit where it makes contact.

[EEL]

Just for the record, I too believe it exceedingly remote that anyone is going to be cited for modifying their PFD and if fact have added straps to attach a hydration pack to my PFD without a second thought . However the point (or hypothetical) raised was whether if it was deemed to be modified was there the a legal basis for being fined. The answer is yes. While it would seem to be a hypothetical matter, one never knows what a zealous law enforcement officer might do. Thus the comment that stuff happens. There is an infamous case in which a citation with a potential fine of $5K was given to a deaf recreational boater for violating Rule 5. As I recall the the citation was ultimately dropped by a superior officer. Technically the person did violate Rule 5, but it was an very picky and unreasonable enforcement action to say the least.

Ed Lawson

Testy having been thrust back into winter today

[jason]

Just for the record, I too believe it exceedingly remote that anyone is going to be cited for modifying their PFD and if fact have added straps to attach a hydration pack to my PFD without a second thought . However the point (or hypothetical) raised was whether if it was deemed to be modified was there the a legal basis for being fined. The answer is yes. While it would seem to be a hypothetical matter, one never knows what a zealous law enforcement officer might do. Thus the comment that stuff happens. There is an infamous case in which a citation with a potential fine of $5K was given to a deaf recreational boater for violating Rule 5. As I recall the the citation was ultimately dropped by a superior officer. Technically the person did violate Rule 5, but it was an very picky and unreasonable enforcement action to say the least.

Ed Lawson

Testy having been thrust back into winter today

Tow one of these http://www.kayakkaboose.com/ behind your kayak though Boston harbor and I would bet that the CG would start looking at you. Thus your pfd would be noticed. any lash tabs that you sewed your-self that don't look 100% like they are factory done might end up with you being escorted onto a bigger craft.

-Jason

[NPSheehan]

Very Funny

For that price you could purchase a Pungo 100 and tow it We all know the Pungo is the bestest kayak ever made

Neil

[Brian Nystrom]

Tow one of these http://www.kayakkaboose.com/ behind your kayak though Boston harbor and I would bet that the CG would start looking at you.

Well, DUHHHHH! Tow that or even paddle in any "sensitive" area and you're asking for trouble.

My point above was that if you don't go around causing concern for the CG by doing things you shouldn't be, they're not going to bother you, as they have better/more important things to do.

[Suz]

Tow one of these http://www.kayakkaboose.com/ behind your kayak though Boston harbor and I would bet that the CG would start looking at you. Thus your pfd would be noticed. any lash tabs that you sewed your-self that don't look 100% like they are factory done might end up with you being escorted onto a bigger craft.

-Jason

That is sooo silly. I can not believe that someone would actually buy one.

[great_blue]

That is sooo silly. I can not believe that someone would actually buy one.

Hold the phone! This baby solves both my problems; I can lash it to my waist so it can serve as the ultimate pfd in terms of buoyancy and comfort, AND it's massive storage can hold all my, uh, beverages for lunch breaks.

Jon

[Michael_Crouse]

But that's the perfect solution for the lack of storage when using these Skijaks!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Skijaks-Very-Rare-Walk...0#ht_826wt_1167

I know I posted this before but the image of combining these two things is very funny.

[jdkilroy]

Soooo....

... about those inflatable PFD's.

[PeterB]

Soooo....

... about those inflatable PFD's.

I thought we had resolved everything:

Kokatat SeaO2 PFD is pretty cool: Jeff Allen and Christopher Godfrey like it.

Nobody really knows how it performs in the water while uninflated: Christopher and Jeff are great paddlers, so they never have to swim.

Neil will be test driving Sea O2 PFD at pool session soon, will report findings.

Kokatat Hydration pack adaptability to Sea O2 is dubious.

If a Coast Guard machine gun is pointed at your head, do what they say; you may get a fine for something or other, but probably not.

[tyson]

I thought we had resolved everything:

Including Middle East peace?

[Suz]

I thought we had resolved everything:

Kokatat SeaO2 PFD is pretty cool: Jeff Allen and Christopher Godfrey like it.

Nobody really knows how it performs in the water while uninflated: Christopher and Jeff are great paddlers, so they never have to swim.

Neil will be test driving Sea O2 PFD at pool session soon, will report findings.

Kokatat Hydration pack adaptability to Sea O2 is dubious.

If a Coast Guard machine gun is pointed at your head, do what they say; you may get a fine for something or other, but probably not.

Actually, I will add something else, just for the sake of thoroughness. Although Christopher never swims, Jeff used the Kokatat SeaO2 and other PFD's in an experiment in a tank simulating really big seas and he said that it was the only one that kept his head above water enough to be able to breath.

And the Kokatat Tributary hydration pack does not attach to the SeaO2 without modification. If one attaches a hydration pack to that life jacket, be careful NOT to block the inflation of bladder at the top of the back of it.

Suz

[PeterB]

Actually, I will add something else, just for the sake of thoroughness. Although Christopher never swims, Jeff used the Kokatat SeaO2 and other PFD's in an experiment in a tank simulating really big seas and he said that it was the only one that kept his head above water enough to be able to breath.

And the Kokatat Tributary hydration pack does not attach to the SeaO2 without modification. If one attaches a hydration pack to that life jacket, be careful NOT to block the inflation of bladder at the top of the back of it.

Suz

Did Mr. Allen do his simulated big seas demo with SeaO2 inflated, uninflated, or both?

[Suz]

Did Mr. Allen do his simulated big seas demo with SeaO2 inflated, uninflated, or both?

Both. BUT in big seas, it needed to be fully inflated.

[cgr]

Suz - is the SeaO2 classified as a type 3 or type 5 pfd?

[Suz]

Suz - is the SeaO2 classified as a type 3 or type 5 pfd?

It is type 5.

[jason]

Suz - is the SeaO2 classified as a type 3 or type 5 pfd?

Wonder why they don't say that on the page.

http://www.kokatat.com/product_detail.asp?code=sea

I still like this one better and it's make in my size:

http://www.kokatat.com/product_detail.asp?code=rnp

-Jason

[leong]

Yes, thats the one I was alluding to. Here's another very similar model: looks like its got a small zippered pocket.

I think both these models have zero flotation, or close to it when ininflated.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/store...;classNum=12387

This model inflates automatically when one of its components gets wet. Definitely not for sea kayakers.

[leong]

I'm curious how inflatable (with CO2 cartridge etc) pfds perform when not inflated.

The Kokatat SeaO2 PFD has 7.5 lbs flotation (most Pfds look like theyre in the 16 lb neighborhood )

which is increased to 22 lbs when the cartridge is activated.

Question is: how does the pfd do at 7.5 lbs, without inflating? surely in a prolonged swimming scenario one would want the extra flotation, but is 7.5 lbs sufficient for most "normal" swimming scenarios (wet exit and rescue, or reenter and roll, cowboy self- rescue etc) or does the vest need to be inflated in virtually all swimming/wet exit situations?

I guess what you really mean is how well does it work in a prolonged floating scenario. For swimming you want no stinking water wings or anything inhibiting you. So, the less buoyancy the better.

For me (at least) any PFD gets in my way for rescues (especially reenter and rolls, since the PFD’s buoyancy makes it difficult to submerge upside down and enter the cockpit). But, of course, the tradeoff is safety vs. freedom of movement. In cold and rough water safety is primary. In warm water freedom of movement might be more important (assuming you are a “swimmerâ€). Otherwise, wouldn’t people going for a swim put on their PFD first?

I bought a competing CO2 inflatable PFD for comfort, but I found wearing it around my neck was almost as uncomfortable as a traditional PFD. I exchanged it for this belt pack system http://www.lifesupportintl.com/products/In...al-106-172.html that I either wear around my waist or just attach to my spray skirt or the deck bungees. No, I wouldn’t use it for solo paddling in the winter!

Yes, inflatable PFDs are not good for hanging on knives, VHFs, fishing poles, etc.