The Kayak Roll: a self-learning method

[Gcosloy]

Rolling_a_kayak.doc

I have taken the time to develop a self-learning method for the kayak roll that might be helpful to those who have failed to master it in spite of repeated efforts which may have included professional guidance, pool sessions and friends advice. This too is friendly advice although it provides a lot more detail and may be attractive to those learners "who need to ask too many questions".

While I welcome criticism and suggestions, please keep in mind that what I'm proposing is not a universal approach but an alternative for the recalcitrant paddler who hasn't learned with traditional methods. Finally, and this I freely admit, my method requires patience and self-determination that perhaps not all of us possess in abundance. Bon chance.

(Acknowledgments: The idea of using a paddle float without a paddle was originally suggested during a conversation by Leon Granowitz many years ago. The motorcycle analogy for the motion of the wrist was originally suggested to me by Bob Foote.)

[brambor]

That's the first time I see "uber echt" used in and English essay.

Rolling_a_kayak.doc

I have taken the time to develop a self-learning method for the kayak roll that might be helpful to those who have failed to master it in spite of repeated efforts which may have included professional guidance, pool sessions and friends advice. This too is friendly advice although it provides a lot more detail and may be attractive to those learners "who need to ask too many questions".

While I welcome criticism and suggestions, please keep in mind that what I'm proposing is not a universal approach but an alternative for the recalcitrant paddler who hasn't learned with traditional methods. Finally, and this I freely admit, my method requires patience and self-determination that perhaps not all of us possess in abundance. Bon chance.

(Acknowledgments: The idea of using a paddle float without a paddle was originally suggested during a conversation by Leon Granowitz many years ago. The motorcycle analogy for the motion of the wrist was originally suggested to me by Bob Foote.)

[bazzert]

Nice! Thanks.

[brambor]

Ok. I just read the whole thing.

I am one of those. 4 lessons and I still can't roll.

Lesson 1 - Waterboarding.

Great instructor

1-1 attention

Goal: Attempt to start me with a balance brace

Result: Lots of funny near drowning experiences. Total failure to appropriately arch my back and float on the surface. I sink like a rock.

Lesson 2 - Pool session

Great instructors

Goal: Breaking down the steps to roll. Attempting to roll.

Result: Failure to roll and failure to even recognize which way to roll up. Success in learning step 1 of a reentry and roll - the reentry.

Lesson 3 - Pool session

Great instructors but also a lot of soul searching and self learning

Result: improvement in orienting under water, resurfacing on the right side and vague hints of improvement toward the roll

Lesson 4 - Pool session

Much more self learning

Successful reentry and roll with a paddle float all the way until half inflated single chamber. A few 'almost rolls' until left thigh padding gives

a way.

Lesson 5 - Pool session

I will do this session this Saturday night. The fact that I have tasted success with reentry and roll and with the practice of sculling...I am planning

to try rolling over and then sculling until (I hope) I resurface to get a breath of fresh air and if I manage sculling and staying up reasonably well then

converting this movement to rolling up. Thinking this would somehow help learning blade position in the water to learn on how to rise sweep but dunno ...

This is the last session at this pool. If I don't roll tonight I'll have to wait until another pool session in the spring.

[brambor]

Here are my observations to your article:

When you are describing the trouble in sweeping the paddle 'right' to create a lifting effect - the whole description of right vs left indexing sounds complicated. Wouldn't it be better for the beginner to use paddle that is not indexed?

[rylevine]

Rolling_a_kayak.doc

I have taken the time to develop a self-learning method for the kayak roll that might be helpful to those who have failed to master it in spite of repeated efforts which may have included professional guidance, pool sessions and friends advice. This too is friendly advice although it provides a lot more detail and may be attractive to those learners "who need to ask too many questions".

While I welcome criticism and suggestions, please keep in mind that what I'm proposing is not a universal approach but an alternative for the recalcitrant paddler who hasn't learned with traditional methods. Finally, and this I freely admit, my method requires patience and self-determination that perhaps not all of us possess in abundance. Bon chance.

(Acknowledgments: The idea of using a paddle float without a paddle was originally suggested during a conversation by Leon Granowitz many years ago. The motorcycle analogy for the motion of the wrist was originally suggested to me by Bob Foote.)

Gene,

I'll take a look at this, thanks. I've been in the Biddeford pool (with Rene) trying to get my off-side roll, and have re-visited all the problems with the original on-side roll. Off-side seems to be coming along, however. It has helped me to use the white water (Dagger) boats that they provide since my Aurora has so much more inertia. Last weekend I was getting the on-side C-to-C (as well as the off-side) in the Dagger because it is so responsive. However, others have mentioned the opposite, that they find the white water boats to be more difficult to roll. Biddeford also allows personal kayaks; and I have brought mine up there to practice further in it (as well as re-enter and roll). Rolling the sea kayak involves the same moves, but the Aurora responds in 'slow-motion' compared to the Dagger. By the way, I would give a plug to Brian and Teresa....they really do try to help people with rolling during the pool sessions.

As Rene mentioned, this is it for pool sessions until NSPN starts them in the winter. Is anyone aware of pool sessions that run in November and December? I understand that NSPN tried it last year, and there was not enough participants to justify them. Is there more interest this year?

Bob

[spuglisi]

Gene,

I'll take a look at this, thanks. I've been in the Biddeford pool (with Rene) trying to get my off-side roll, and have re-visited all the problems with the original on-side roll. Off-side seems to be coming along, however. It has helped me to use the white water (Dagger) boats that they provide since my Aurora has so much more inertia. Last weekend I was getting the on-side C-to-C (as well as the off-side) in the Dagger because it is so responsive. However, others have mentioned the opposite, that they find the white water boats to be more difficult to roll. Biddeford also allows personal kayaks; and I have brought mine up there to practice further in it (as well as re-enter and roll). Rolling the sea kayak involves the same moves, but the Aurora responds in 'slow-motion' compared to the Dagger. By the way, I would give a plug to Brian and Teresa....they really do try to help people with rolling during the pool sessions.

As Rene mentioned, this is it for pool sessions until NSPN starts them in the winter. Is anyone aware of pool sessions that run in November and December? I understand that NSPN tried it last year, and there was not enough participants to justify them. Is there more interest this year?

Bob

Bob,

Right now it looks like the NSPN pool sessions will be starting after the first of the year.

[Gcosloy]

Here are my observations to your article:

When you are describing the trouble in sweeping the paddle 'right' to create a lifting effect - the whole description of right vs left indexing sounds complicated. Wouldn't it be better for the beginner to use paddle that is not indexed?

Indexing is not the same as feathering although they are correlated. Any paddle feathered or not still has an index. It simply means how you grip the shaft insuring that when the blade on that side enters the water it does so correctly. Frequently paddles are also feathered and we can say that there is an index hand (in my case the right) which doesn't change orientation to the shaft while the offside hand is free to slip as the paddle shaft is rotated somewhat when the offside blade is presented to the water. This is usually but not always done by having the index hands wrist flex upwards. sometimes it is done more by lifting the elbow. In either case the shaft is never allowed to rotate in the index hand.

[Bill Gwynn]

Here are my observations to your article:

When you are describing the trouble in sweeping the paddle 'right' to create a lifting effect - the whole description of right vs left indexing sounds complicated. Wouldn't it be better for the beginner to use paddle that is not indexed?

Sounds like you have indexing and feathering confused. Indexing is the oval shape or "ridge" that is on the paddle shaft. Feathering is the angle between left and right blades.

[brambor]

Sounds like you have indexing and feathering confused. Indexing is the oval shape or "ridge" that is on the paddle shaft. Feathering is the angle between left and right blades.

you are correct. My mistake.

[rwolson]

Great document, thanks

I could relate to some of the frustrations. Take a class and try to absorb all the different techniques thrown your direction. Next, when's the next class? So, in the end you give up.

Your document outlined a variety of steps to work on. When I took some fly casting lessons I went theough the same frustrations. You attend a class, learn, maybe cast well, but when you go out on your, everything falls apart. You read books and articles plus watch every video. You learn to break down the cast and concentrate on a specific component in each practice session. Eventually, you're throwing tight loops over distance with ease.

I liked your idea about using the paddle floats. I've tried two float cushions, struggled and yes, wet faced.

Hopefully, a few more nice days this year before the snow flies again. I want to roll next year.

[nancysan]

Ok. I just read the whole thing.

I am one of those. 4 lessons and I still can't roll.

Four lessons? I've had many, many lessons, a rolling clinic, numerous pool and lake sessons, etc. The good news is I know I'm a strong paddler despite this. But I won't give up. If you are referring to the clinic in Biddiford this Sat., see you there ;-)

[Brian Nystrom]

Last weekend I was getting the on-side C-to-C (as well as the off-side) in the Dagger...

Therein lies part of the problem. IMO the C-to-C is one of last rolls I would ever teach anyone, as it's very timing and technique dependent, and therefore harder to learn. It's standard fare for whitewater paddlers - and the main roll whitewater instructors teach - but it's neither necessary for, nor all that frequently used by sea kayakers. It doesn't work well with a loaded touring boat, either. The strong hip-snap required is difficult for many people to master and impossible for some.

My feeling is that getting some to roll as soon as possible is key to confidence and long-term rolling success. To that end, I strongly suggest starting with a Pawlata roll or standard Greenland roll, both of which use an extended paddle and a layback finish. These rolls are easier to learn for most people, don't require precise timing or a hip-snap and are gentler on the body. For many rollers, these are the "fallback" rolls that they rely on when other rolls fail. Learning them first allows one to work on other more advanced rolling techniques without having to suffer through wet exits every time a roll fails.

I also strongly recommend learning to roll with an unfeathered paddle, as it makes rolling on both sides simply mirror images of each other. Once you have the mechanics down on both sides, it's much less difficult to add in the element of feathering and adjust your technique for it.

[nancysan]

Rolling_a_kayak.doc

I have taken the time to develop a self-learning method for the kayak roll that might be helpful to those who have failed to master it in spite of repeated efforts which may have included professional guidance, pool sessions and friends advice. This too is friendly advice although it provides a lot more detail and may be attractive to those learners "who need to ask too many questions".

I found the document interesting and informative. It repeats much of what I've already heard in my travels, but is thorough and offers the paddle float replacing paddle method. I did have a little bit of difficulty with the motorcycle analogy since I don't ride.

The paddle float method without paddle I've never worked on, so I suppose it is worth a try. I didn't do well with a paddle float on paddle and have avoided it altogether. I think you are correct in remembering the many steps, and especially focusing the torso as key. However for me it truly is a timing issue of remembering to put all the key elements together at the exact time. I don't seem able to muscle up, so I will need to keep working until I get it just right.

Thanks Gene.

[nancysan]

Therein lies part of the problem. IMO the C-to-C is one of last rolls I would ever teach anyone, as it's very timing and technique dependent, and therefore harder to learn. It's standard fare for whitewater paddlers - and the main roll whitewater instructors teach - but it's neither necessary for, nor all that frequently used by sea kayakers. It doesn't work well with a loaded touring boat, either. The strong hip-snap required is difficult for many people to master and impossible for some.

My feeling is that getting some to roll as soon as possible is key to confidence and long-term rolling success. To that end, I strongly suggest starting with a Pawlata roll or standard Greenland roll, both of which use an extended paddle and a layback finish. These rolls are easier to learn for most people, don't require precise timing or a hip-snap and are gentler on the body. For many rollers, these are the "fallback" rolls that they rely on when other rolls fail. Learning them first allows one to work on other more advanced rolling techniques without having to suffer through wet exits every time a roll fails.

I also strongly recommend learning to roll with an unfeathered paddle, as it makes rolling on both sides simply mirror images of each other. Once you have the mechanics down on both sides, it's much less difficult to add in the element of feathering and adjust your technique for it.

Two opposing views. Nothing new there LOL. It's all good and everyone is different, so I'm told.

[brambor]

Brian,

Do you think my idea of rolling over, then sculling to resurface, get a breath of air and while sculling get into the right position to roll up (probably with a layback) ... do you think my idea is feasible?

If yes then I was thinking this would be a useful skill especially when one gets knocked over in big waves and runs a risk of getting knocked over again at the rollup. It might be better to resurface, check things out and roll up at the right time... ;-) I'm just brainstorming here ...

[EEL]

Do you think my idea of rolling over, then sculling to resurface, get a breath of air and while sculling get into the right position to roll up (probably with a layback) ... do you think my idea is feasible?

It is not only feasible, it is a very good idea. A GP is a much easier and more effective tool for doing the type of sculling exercises you are considering, but you can do it with a EP. Every time you scull and then come back up you are perfecting your roll it seems to me. Once you get a little comfy doing it, try going over in all sorts of weird ways with paddle is odd orientations, start sculling, get some air, look around, and swing up.

If yes then I was thinking this would be a useful skill especially when one gets knocked over in big waves and runs a risk of getting knocked over again at the rollup. It might be better to resurface, check things out and roll up at the right time...

Another good idea and a practical skill that is used by people. If you Google the name Warren Williamson and Deception Pass I think you will find some You tube videos of him doing this is water that is not calm. There is also the chest scull which I have never tried with a EP and some favor it for hanging around to see when is a good time to come up.

The trick here is the premise you are comfy with being in the water and your boat mostly upside down. Sculling helps that a great deal. To that end I believe you should not think of rolling as a self rescue skill that is only used when things have gone wrong and the idea is to get upright fast. You should view a variety of rolling techniques as just different strokes to learn and if possible something to be practiced and enjoyed for its own sake. If you do so, then after awhile being upside down becomes a normal aspect of paddling and not something to fear.

Ed Lawson

[Gcosloy]

Therein lies part of the problem. IMO the C-to-C is one of last rolls I would ever teach anyone, as it's very timing and technique dependent, and therefore harder to learn. It's standard fare for whitewater paddlers - and the main roll whitewater instructors teach - but it's neither necessary for, nor all that frequently used by sea kayakers. It doesn't work well with a loaded touring boat, either. The strong hip-snap required is difficult for many people to master and impossible for some.

My feeling is that getting some to roll as soon as possible is key to confidence and long-term rolling success. To that end, I strongly suggest starting with a Pawlata roll or standard Greenland roll, both of which use an extended paddle and a layback finish. These rolls are easier to learn for most people, don't require precise timing or a hip-snap and are gentler on the body. For many rollers, these are the "fallback" rolls that they rely on when other rolls fail. Learning them first allows one to work on other more advanced rolling techniques without having to suffer through wet exits every time a roll fails.

I also strongly recommend learning to roll with an unfeathered paddle, as it makes rolling on both sides simply mirror images of each other. Once you have the mechanics down on both sides, it's much less difficult to add in the element of feathering and adjust your technique for it.

I agree with much of what Brian has said with some reservation: My first self-taught roll was the Pawlata and yes it remains a reliable back-up or even combat roll for me. However there is still a serious danger of shoulder injury with using the extended paddle, particularly if one hasn't learned to use the torso in combination first. The chances of this happening are strong since the Pawlata has so much leverage and can get you up by itself. The GP is a different story: The way it is used is much safer and does rely on torso pressure and laybacks. It would be very hard to come up using the GP with upper body muscle alone, which is why it is safer. If you learn with a GP then being un feathered is natural and there is nothing more to learn. However once you have been paddling with a Euro paddle feathered for some time switching it to unfeathered to help learn the off side and on side roll is not a good idea. After a few years paddling feathered with a Euro I find it next to impossible to use it un feathered. I agree with Brian that the C to C is not appropriate for first time learners.

[rylevine]

Therein lies part of the problem. IMO the C-to-C is one of last rolls I would ever teach anyone, as it's very timing and technique dependent, and therefore harder to learn. It's standard fare for whitewater paddlers - and the main roll whitewater instructors teach - but it's neither necessary for, nor all that frequently used by sea kayakers. It doesn't work well with a loaded touring boat, either. The strong hip-snap required is difficult for many people to master and impossible for some.

Brian and Gene,

As regards the C-to-C, it was in the context of emphasizing the responsiveness of the white water boats compared to sea kayaks. I've actually not tried the C-to-C with my sea kayak, and basically agree that a sweep should be the first roll.

My strategy with my (still very tentative) off-side is to get the off-side sweep roll on the Dagger white water kayak first. In the last few weeks in Biddeford, I've been attempting it first with the paddle float on the paddle in order to concentrate on the left side hip snap and backward sweep without any danger of not being able to come up. The paddle-floated paddle allows me to start out very slowly performing the maneuver, and then speed up as the sequence feels more natural. It has worked for me, although not for others; and Brian Dunphe seems to prefer not using the paddle float when coaching paddlers on the sweep (he is able to support the paddle as the student tries to sweep).

Unlike for you, Gene, for me the roll has been important in order to feel confidence and control in the kayak. My high bracing and sculling was very much improved by the maneuvers and confidence building effects of the roll. Also, as for self-rescue, I'm still struggling with cowboy and paddle-float reentries....so much so that I almost cannot envision the application of these techniques in rough water. Rolling and re-entry and roll are to me the best options for self-rescue, although luckily I've not had (nor intend to have) that opinion tested in desperate conditions!

Bob

[Brian Nystrom]

However there is still a serious danger of shoulder injury with using the extended paddle, particularly if one hasn't learned to use the torso in combination first. The chances of this happening are strong since the Pawlata has so much leverage and can get you up by itself. The GP is a different story: The way it is used is much safer and does rely on torso pressure and laybacks. It would be very hard to come up using the GP with upper body muscle alone, which is why it is safer.

Perhaps your vision - or version - of the Pawlata roll is different from mine, but the only real difference between it and the standard Greenland roll is the paddle. Both have an extended paddle, forward start, a sweep and a layback finish. In both rolls, you can also stop a the surface and scull, should you be so inclined. Neither one requires any hip-snap or muscling of the boat, so I don't see where a shoulder injury would be likely.

I have seen people treat it like an extended paddle C-to-C or screw roll, which can put strain on the shoulders, though it probably stresses the paddle more.

[Brian Nystrom]

Brian,

Do you think my idea of rolling over, then sculling to resurface, get a breath of air and while sculling get into the right position to roll up (probably with a layback) ... do you think my idea is feasible?

If yes then I was thinking this would be a useful skill especially when one gets knocked over in big waves and runs a risk of getting knocked over again at the rollup. It might be better to resurface, check things out and roll up at the right time... ;-) I'm just brainstorming here ...

What Ed said!

Another variation of this is the "back flop", which is used when you get knocked over by a wave when you're not in the position to set up to roll. You literally turn your back toward the water and flop on the surface. This stops your rotational momentum and allows you to go right into sculling at the surface. I've sculled on the surface in really rough conditions and it's very stable and comfortable. However, there are always risks when you're hanging around in a bad place, so getting back up reasonably quickly and moving out of danger is the best bet.